Gunsmithing Odd Project, looking for input

jacq220

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Thinking about taking a stevens/savage action and putting a 5.45x39 barrel on it. looking for all the input i can get from you guys... what bolt face size will i need? any input on barrel length? thinking about 18 inches in a medium fluted profile (think scout rifle idea).

now the crazy part... i would like a min of 10 rounds in this thing if can. anybody have any crazy ideas on how i could get an AK mag to fit this thing and still feed?

lets have some input.
 
Re: Odd Project, looking for input

You should be able to use a .223 bolt but will probably have to open it up a little, the 5.45 is about .015 over a .223 case head. Someone used to make bottom metal for 700's that would adapt an AR mag to it. You could probably get that to work if you played with it.
 
Re: Odd Project, looking for input

Since you're building something that has serious accuracy potential, I would suggest you get a regular 224 barrel for it. Brass is available, dies are available, bullets are the short coming from what I've seen. The options for a .221 bullets are poor in terms of match/target grade bullets. That isn't particularly surprising considering the vast majority of weapons that fire this round.

If you put the 224 barrel on it you can just load any of the usual suspects for long range 223 Rem work. The 221 bullets tend to be very long from the factory, this is a good thing for you when considering 224 bullets to shove in there.

If you can't get the AK mag adapter off the shelf it might be possible to use AR mags and the AR adapter setup. I have definitely seen AR uppers in 5.45x39, that might make your magazines more expensive if they're different from a regular AR15 magazine however you wouldn't be paying someone to design and fabricate an adapter to stuff AK mags into a bolt action.

Just some food for thought, I really like these kinds of things. My dad has a Turk Mauser chambered in 7.62x39 using an old SMLE barrel. He showed that Wolf laquered ammo has an accuracy potential of appx 1.5 MOA instead of 4 MOA with it.
 
Re: Odd Project, looking for input

Yes, I am wondering about the 5,45 bore as well.

Aside from being somewhat moderately offbeat, there's really not all that much to recommend it.

Were I interested in something along such caliber and case dimension lines, I'd be choosing something with a more obvious track record, like .223, or .222 Rem. Just a bunch easier in the long run.

Greg
 
Re: Odd Project, looking for input

I thought the same thing about the cheap ammo, but since you can get the same price/quality ammo in 223, chasing 5.45x39 seems like an endeavor in foolishness without tailoring it to do something better than the 223.

In that regard, if this is for shooting the cheap stuff, my general advice is "you're wasting your time".
 
Re: Odd Project, looking for input

Savage/Stevens bolt heads are either .378 (223), .473 (308 family) or .534 (Magnum). If memory serves, the 5.45 uses the same case as the 7.62x39 which is the same as 6PPC, etc., etc. That case has a nominal .441 rim diameter, so you would want to have a 223 bolt head opened-up.

VBull used to make bottom metal for the Rem 700 that would take Ruger Mini 14 mags. This was intended for .223 rifles, but I would imagine the mags for the 7.62x39 Ranch Rifles would work also..., if they make the bottom metal for Savage/Stevens receivers. Their website is under construction so info was woefully short in supply.

As a gunsmith friend once told me - there's no such thing as an impossible project as long as you have the money to throw at it.

If only I had gotten one of the Steyr East German Police rifles that JG Sales had back in the day for $500 or so - nice little bolt action "patrol" rifles in 5.45 with a fixed low power scope.

It is an imminently doable project.
 
Re: Odd Project, looking for input

Negative sir, the 5.45 case head on both the Bulgarian and Russian (?) I have in front of me are .391 and the 7.62x39 (Iraqi or Egyptian) is .447. .223 bolt would be the easiest match but still needs opened up some. The mini-14 mags should work and so should the AR15 ones but unless you get the dedicated 5.45 ones your capacity will be down a little.
 
Re: Odd Project, looking for input

Look, I'd be clearly interested to see somebody bring a decent 5,45x39 project to fruition. To me it makes as much sense as any other project.

As far as cheap ammo is concerned, the ammo provides primed cases, pull-down powder, and projectiles if disassembled. Simply redeveloping a load that is matched to the barrel using such components could be a fruitful endeavor. Or take it further with a 'Mexican match' approach using better quality projectiles and propellant.

For individuals who enjoy the 'thrill if the chase', such a project could be nearly ideal.

I'm no longer one of those folks, but I throw no stones.

If memory serves, the 5,45x39 was a Soviet effort to replicate .223 performance on platforms that were already in place to employ the x39 cartridges. The 5,45 would therefore be something of a Soviet-oriented no-brainer.

The issue, for me, is whether either the 5.56 or the 5,45 are really good solutions for their applications. I think they are only partially good solutions, and that more robust chamberings might serve their original purposes better. But that particular observation brings nothing useful to this discussion.

Here in the US, private enterprise has grasped the .223 and developed it widely for additional applications. I think that in Eastern Europe, such an approach is less possible, less likely, and less attractive in practical terms. So as a development project, I think the .222/.223 provides better avenues to support custom development.

FYI, Savage does produce one rifle chambered in 7.62x39, their Scout Rifle. So a bolt head with the proper cartridge base diameter for .22PPC and 6mmPPC does exist. Please note that the 7.62x39's base diameter is 11.35mm, and the 5,45x39's base diameter is 10mm.

Greg
 
Re: Odd Project, looking for input

the purpose of the rifle is because of the infinatly cheap loaded ammo available. i always find myself at the range just wanting to throw a bunch of rounds down range fast for the fun of it (after the serious shooting is over) but always hold back because of the cost of it. i am also considering this in 7.62x39. some sort of lower powered optic and using holdovers quickly engage various targets of all ranges w/out burning through ammo on something like an AR. could also make a pretty decent trainer as an alternative to a rimfire. the higher ammo capacity is a requirment as this would be something to really throw some ammo downrange and still not be a semi. the 5.45 idea is because its the cheapest loaded ammo in that genre. and as far as i know it will be effected more by the wind than 7.62 x 39 which is a good thing when considering a trainer.

thanks for the input guys, i will be doing all the work myself, so R and D isnt really "cost prohibitive" as much as it is time prohibitive.

how hard do you think it would be to modify the remington 700 bottom metal that takes ar mags? will 5.45x39 fit into an ar mag?
 
Re: Odd Project, looking for input

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but since you can get the same price/quality ammo in 223,</div></div>

can you show me where i can get .223 ammo for the same price as 5.45x39 please? that would be fantastic.
 
Re: Odd Project, looking for input

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but since you can get the same price/quality ammo in 223,</div></div>

can you show me where i can get .223 ammo for the same price as 5.45x39 please? that would be fantastic. </div></div>

Grafs.com

5.45x39 Tula ammo: 3.99/20 currently on sale
5.45x39 60gr, Wolf laquer steel: 5.29/20 on sale

.223 Tula ammo: 3.79/20 currently on sale
.223 Wolf, laquer steel: 4.79/20 currently on sale

It would not be fair to compare 223 FGMM @ $1.50/round to the available ammo in 5.45... Apples to apples the 223 shit ammo is actually cheaper.
 
Re: Odd Project, looking for input

The 5.45 ammo Ive seen for sale is in tins 1080 round for 130 bucks 12 cents a round. This is most likely the ammo the OP is referring to Im not aware of any 5.56 ammo in this price range.It should be noted that this ammo is corrosive and in lacquer steel cases Im not sure how accurate it would be. I have to admit I too would like to see the results of this combo and I had thought about seriously for a while I just never pulled the trigger. I instead purchased the upper in an ar platform and have not fired it yet. Keep us posted
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but since you can get the same price/quality ammo in 223,</div></div>

can you show me where i can get .223 ammo for the same price as 5.45x39 please? that would be fantastic. </div></div>

Grafs.com

5.45x39 Tula ammo: 3.99/20 currently on sale
5.45x39 60gr, Wolf laquer steel: 5.29/20 on sale

.223 Tula ammo: 3.79/20 currently on sale
.223 Wolf, laquer steel: 4.79/20 currently on sale

It would not be fair to compare 223 FGMM @ $1.50/round to the available ammo in 5.45... Apples to apples the 223 shit ammo is actually cheaper.</div></div>
 
Re: Odd Project, looking for input

I've never priced corrosive ammo for the obvious reason that it's corrosive. I'm not going to strip my rifle down and clean it that thoroughly just to chase the price in ammo. 12c/round vs. current bulk reload prices of about 18c/round just isn't worth it to me. I do see why it is attractive in price, but corrosive is a complete no go to me.

Sorry for the confusion in that regard.
 
Re: Odd Project, looking for input

I am not looking at building a super accurate long range gun... rather just a fun plinker that i can let people shoot as much as they want and not worry about cost of ammo... corrosive it NOT an issue, a simple cleaning will take care of that... i think total cost of the build should be less than 700. 200 for the stevens action, 250 barrel...and the rest in optics mag/bottom metal ect.

maybe its not worth my time, who knows.
 
Re: Odd Project, looking for input

Well then the Savage Scout Rifle, with a dot optic and several additional DM's, should be more to your liking. IMHO, the key problems with 7.62x39 are related to low expectations and firearms into which accuracy was designed as a third or fourth priority.

A case that spawned the .22PPC and 6mmPPC should be able to deliver good results when used in a decent rifle like the Savage. If the Mexican Match concept appeals to you, IMR-4198 and the new Sierra .308/135gr SMK might make good partners.

Else Wolf and Bear will definitely suffice.

Greg
 
Re: Odd Project, looking for input

See-thru rings may be marginally acceptable on a hunter, but they really do jack the optical axis up way too high for a comfortable cheek weld. I think a dot scope in a scout mount with a backup ghost ring sight is probabably the best solution for a Scout type rifle.

I also find that a comfortable rapid firing cadence that makes each shot count is easily accomplished with a bolt gun.

Semi's are dirtier, more expensive, often heavier, and seldom more accurate.

I make the exception for my Garand, and my Garand only. Any trouble my Garand can't get me out of, few other guns will handle better.

Greg