Offhand stages

morganlamprecht

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Come on man, I thought u had somethin new? Lol
This isn’t new at all...base wind adjusted off BC of the bullet...the base wind changes if you’re shooting .3, .4, .5, etc bc bullets
 
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reubenski

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My 6 Dasher is a 6 gun. That's it. That my rule of thumb.








Just kidding. There's a little more to it.

My base wind is 6mph. This means with a 6 mph wind my bullet drifts .2mrad at 200, .3mrad at 300, .4mrad at 400, can you guess what's next? That's right, .5 at 500. All the way to 1000, then I have to bump it .1 for a while. So if I'm shooting a 4mph wind at 600 my wind drift is .4mrads. 12 mph at 300 is .6. 8mph at 400 is .6mrad. and you can see it's accurate to the 1/10 mil. I'm just pro-rating it like you do, but I have a simple system that gets me my base wind for every range and every speed without the ballistic solver. I get my base wind hold before starting the stage, establish a lull and gust, and then jump in the blaze-fest and chase the spotter just like you guys do. ("Chasing the spotter" is a High-power and F class joke).

Yes, it scrambles people's eggs at first, especially if you're not used to wrangling numbers in your head but it's 3rd grade math and we get really good at it. Who would think ski jump is possible with those ridiculous pontoons but boy do they fly....:)
 

morganlamprecht

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I don’t wrangle any numbers in my head at all because I spent 5 yrs fighting in cages off and on, and can’t remember eating 30 minutes before hand sometimes lol I have to write it down or I’ll forget it
 
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reubenski

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Why did you think it's new? It's been around for quite awhile. And it's accurate to a .1 mrad.

BTW, The number isn't based on the bullets BC. That is a foolish way to get numnuts to remember the first digit of his BC. My .284W is a 7 gun and the bc is .660

It's based off of a coincidental pattern. It's just pattern anaylisis and learning how your brain chews thru short cuts and developing a simple rule of thumb.
 

Rob01

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Come on man, I thought u had somethin new? Lol
This isn’t new at all...base wind adjusted off BC of the bullet...the base wind changes if you’re shooting .3, .4, .5, etc bc bullets
Thinking same thing and that is the method I was thinking of earlier. If it works for you Reuben then rock it but I will stick with my data from my program. I do very similar to what Morgan does at matches.
 

morganlamprecht

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Why did you think it's new? It's been around for quite awhile. And it's accurate to a .1 mrad.

BTW, The number isn't based on the bullets BC. That is a foolish way to get numnuts to remember the first digit of his BC. My .284W is a 7 gun and the bc is .660

It's based off of a coincidental pattern. It's just pattern anaylisis and learning how your brain chews thru short cuts and developing a simple rule of thumb.
You were acting like it was new and a break thru that was gunna change rob’s world...not me

And yea, spin it however you want... it’s bc/velocity based on what amount of wind pushes the bullet .1mil for each 100 yds...

You way overhyped it...
 
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reubenski

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I was being flippant. ""What if I told you.....!" I figured you knew and just didn't want to admit that you don't "know" your wind drift; you're reliant on a data card or kestrel until you get one wind call and start chasing the spotter. But then when you claimed that it was generic and inacurrate I thought you really didn't know.

Still claiming it's inacurrate?
 

reubenski

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"..btw I’d round .660 to 7".

Jeezus dude, ok how about this, my 7WSM is a 10 gun pushing 180 HVLD's at 2960 at 10K in the mountains....and the BC is .670 or .680. Round that shit to 10 you obstinate PRS shooter....
 

morganlamprecht

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"..btw I’d round .660 to 7".

Jeezus dude, ok how about this, my 7WSM is a 10 gun pushing 180 HVLD's at 2960 at 10K in the mountains....and the BC is .670 or .680. Round that shit to 10 you obstinate PRS shooter....
Read and thought it wrong while driving, didn’t consider the changing DAs off the top of my head....also why I edited it after realizing the mistake
 

morganlamprecht

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point was, your method ain’t new and it still requires you to call 6mph or whatever else correctly or you miss
 

reubenski

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The point is, a gold standard and knowledge existed. Some dudes didn't have access to it and had to make some shit up. It became the new language in Babylon and when you bring up the old language everyone covers up the fact that they devolved to a system reliant on a computer or premade data card by saying the rule of thumb is too hard or inaccurate. It's not. You just didn't learn it first and now your heels are dug in.

Fast is what you practice and sometimes you gotta train thru the pain to get to a system or technique with a superior capability...but if you're mind is closed off bc you think you already learned everything worth while and it threatens your status as "the dude" ...you've just stopped learning.
 

djarecke

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Todd Hodnett has been teaching this method for years. It's not new, and still requires you to call wind within a gnat's behind.
 

reubenski

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I actually read about that method on the Hide years ago before i owned a kestel
Did you go out and shoot it long enough to give it a fair shake? I learned from Jerry Barnhart that new technique isn't going to come easy and you have to give it an honest assessment before discounting it. That dude has tried so many techniques. He pioneered shooting minor class for a title. That's innovation.

I was against the Trmr, Atrag on a kestrel, and a few other things but after I spent a good two weeks of shooting them and giving them enough attention to truly understand it and be proficient I feel like an idiot pushing back.

It's one thing to say you "know" something bc you purused it on the web, or even throw the lingo out but when you use it on a 9-5 and live/ breathe it, you truly KNOW it. Some guys think they know something until they have to teach it and then they find out they didn't know as much as they thought. There's a lot of guys who can "do" but can't tell you how they did it. They don't have the depth of knowledge to actually understand it.
 

reubenski

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Todd Hodnett has been teaching this method for years. It's not new, and still requires you to call wind within a gnat's behind.
Ya he did. So what? Does that make it inacurrate? How does it need you to call speeds any more accurate than any other technique? Or let me put it another way, what technique allows you to be a shit wind caller and still get gnats ass accuracy?
 

morganlamprecht

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Did you go out and shoot it long enough to give it a fair shake? I learned from Jerry Barnhart that new technique isn't going to come easy and you have to give it an honest assessment before discounting it. That dude has tried so many techniques. He pioneered shooting minor class for a title. That's innovation.
I don’t recall saying it was inaccurate, I said it still comes down to your ability to call the wind correctly whether you’re using a kestrel, chart, or formula
 

308pirate

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Do we have a basic disconnect where some people believe that matches must have some sort of training value or be some sort of training evolution and some who believe that matches are simply competitions regardless of applicability to the real world?
 

reubenski

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@morganlamprecht I thought I was bad, but Dude, you win. I'm out. You got me.

@natdscott it's a myth....:)

@308pirate no, not realistic requirement or tactical relevance, just some direction to relevant skills of putting rounds on steel regardless of why you're doing it and building the knowledge in generations of shooters so they don't pick up some random toy-thing and spend a league chasing the points butterfly thinking that's how you become the best shooter you can be.
 

morganlamprecht

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Well maybe you just suck at explaining whatever it is you’re trying to explain because I’m not following what your base formula does, that a kestel or chart doesn’t, if you guess the wind wrong...enlighten me?
 

308pirate

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Well maybe you just suck at explaining whatever it is you’re trying to explain because I’m not following what your base formula does, that a kestel or chart doesn’t, if you guess the wind wrong...enlighten me?
Ya I'm lost too.....
 

djarecke

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Oh, God....it's 2:30am...why would I try to convince anyone on the internet of anything...so stupid...

....dive, turn, look, pull....
Hey man. I never said it was inaccurate. This is exactly the method I use if I don't feel like pulling out my Kestrel when the wind changes. I'm just saying Hodnett uses it.

Plus spin drift is awesome...
 

Curtis Gordon

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Thanks for the feeback!

You are very much correct that they are not very fun.

I run some small club type matches in Canada with a couple of other guys (20-60 shooters, one day event type deals) and I am always looking for ways to screw with the competitors. I think the targets would have to be quite large (4MOA+) and it would have to be a low point stage (6 rounds) to avoid guys getting too annoyed at me. I might have to make it a sling prone stage or kneeling/sitting.

I find that when guys are .5MOA shooters on the internet they turn into 1.5MOA shooters pretty darn quick on match day and offhand I would think that if someone can hold 4MOA that is pretty darn good.
Where do you hold the club matches in Canada?
 

Vinootz

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I'm new to this forum.Nice to see offhand shooting is not a lost skill. I have not seen anyone shooting offhand at my gun club in PA. and FL. Nor at any of the public ranges. I find it more challenging and satisfying. Can anyone tell me what the NRA and military 10 rings are at 200 yards(and other distances)?
 
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Vinootz

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i dont really care for offhand stages because IMO (and most others ive heard from who dont like it) that isnt what these rifles were built to do...the last 2 offhand stages ive had to shoot in matches were at 250-300 yds on either a 66 or full size ipsc, cant remember the target size exactly...one of the stages was 10 rounds weak side in 60 seconds, the other was 10 rounds strong side in 60...i hit 10/10 weak, and 9/10 strong...its not a matter of not being able to do it...i just kind of see it as a waste of ammo i took time to reload

my other issue with it, is most of the time MDs want to dictate position...i never like that...whats the difference in shooting seated with just me and my rifle, if i can find a better position than traditional seated? its still just me holding my rifle...same with kneeling or standing...there are 3 or 4 ways i would shoot from seating and kneeling before ever using the traditional setup if i had a choice, because they work better...and being 6'5 240 lbs, what works for most average size people...aint a good fit for me, and vice versa, i can do things others cant because of my length
 
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Vinootz

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Interesting that so many folks engage in various competitions. No doubt there are many good shooters posting in this forum. Quite impressive actually. Growing up in Brooklyn we learned how to duck in case the bullets are coming your way. So I know I’m excellent at ducking-lol. Probably not an expert ducker as a veteran that served active duty , but good enough. And probably not as good a shooter as many posting here.The thing about competitions is they are great at testing various, challenging shooting talents. That is a good thing. I do think they lack in recreating bullets coming back at you though. Heck, paintball is probably more effective in that capacity- and still not the real thing. Happy shooting and learn how to duck or hide behind something if a bullets coming your way. In the future matches will have minor explosions on the barriers That competitors shoot from as if enemy fire were hitting the barrier you are behind. There may even be soft impact projectiles that hit the competitors similar to paintball. Incendiary flares and other various reenactment devices in a hostile zone. It will probably be called virtual 3 gun.
 

reubenski

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Interesting that so many folks engage in various competitions. No doubt there are many good shooters posting in this forum. Quite impressive actually. Growing up in Brooklyn we learned how to duck in case the bullets are coming your way. So I know I’m excellent at ducking-lol. Probably not an expert ducker as a veteran that served active duty , but good enough. And probably not as good a shooter as many posting here.The thing about competitions is they are great at testing various, challenging shooting talents. That is a good thing. I do think they lack in recreating bullets coming back at you though. Heck, paintball is probably more effective in that capacity- and still not the real thing. Happy shooting and learn how to duck or hide behind something if a bullets coming your way. In the future matches will have minor explosions on the barriers That competitors shoot from as if enemy fire were hitting the barrier you are behind. There may even be soft impact projectiles that hit the competitors similar to paintball. Incendiary flares and other various reenactment devices in a hostile zone. It will probably be called virtual 3 gun.
Incendiary flares aren't a thing. Flares are meant to provide light. Incendiary grenades and munitions melt things. Two different things. But I can see how they sound the same...if you're from Brooklyn ?
 

Vinootz

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Incendiary flares aren't a thing. Flares are meant to provide light. Incendiary grenades and munitions melt things. Two different things. But I can see how they sound the same...if you're from Brooklyn ?
.
 
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reubenski

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What I meant is some type of fiery explosion whichever it may be. But thanks for the proper terminologies. Also the primary point is that competitions can be made much more interesting in an attempt to reenact
an enemy firing back at you. You can have a bridge you run across where there is an explosion and tosses you a few feet. I’d wager you will see these type of challenges added to enhance and add a thrilling aspects to firearms competitions. You might see a TV production first in an American Gladiator type of format. The military may enhance training in such ways. The future is limitless and I believe you will
see such competitions and military training facilities.
Firey explosions will burn you. You won't get "tossed a few feet" without getting body parts blown off. We just had a guy blow a finger off with a defective flashbang. Reality is much less forgiving than your comic book American Ninja ideas. The military will not be doing these things. Are you actually an American? Are you over 18?
 
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PAYDIRT

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What I meant is some type of fiery explosion whichever it may be. But thanks for the proper terminologies. Also the primary point is that competitions can be made much more interesting in an attempt to reenact
an enemy firing back at you. You can have a bridge you run across where there is an explosion and tosses you a few feet. I’d wager you will see these type of challenges added to enhance and add a thrilling aspects to firearms competitions. You might see a TV production first in an American Gladiator type of format. The military may enhance training in such ways. The future is limitless and I believe you will
see such competitions and military training facilities.
I don't want to stand in line next to anyone that would want to participate in that nonsense let alone be around them with firearms.
 

Dunraven

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I freaking hate standing offhand. We build these rifles to be super heavy low recoiling barricade positional shooting guns. 26" MTU or Heavy Varmint barrels, with as big of a brake as you can hang off the end. I know guys running 4 port Sidewinder or Fat Bastard brakes on their Dashers, lol. Plus now you can even buy steel weights for your MPA chassis to make it even heavier.

Last damn thing I want to do is hold that rifle standing offhand.

I still practice it because some match director sometime is going to make us shoot it. Still hate it, still think it's dumb.
Granted I'm not as strong as I was. Trying to hold a 17+ pound rifle up to shoot off hand is really tough, and my opinion is that we shouldn't be asked to do it. Kneeling, sitting, prone, fine.
 

natdscott

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At the end of the day, the PRS game is just that...a game. If y’all don’t want to stand and shoot, then penalize the organizers for making you do so: don’t go, protest it, pitch a bitch fit, invent a non-existent safety issue, etc.

It is a HOBBY, so it should look like one. If it were only one guy, then he just needs to harden the fuck up. But it seems like a lot of you don’t like shooting on your feet.

In the larger sense of Riflery though, my opinion is that if you cannot shoot passably on your feet, you’re not yet a Shooter...you’re a guy that shoots some.

I have no illusions about mine being a popular opinion.
 
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silhouette

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I actually like off hand stages.
Probably because before PRS type matches came to my range I shot years of Silhouette matches.
Me and my 12 pound gun make up some ground there against the belly floppers and thier 25 pounders. :)
 

cropdude

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Granted I'm not as strong as I was. Trying to hold a 17+ pound rifle up to shoot off hand is really tough, and my opinion is that we shouldn't be asked to do it. Kneeling, sitting, prone, fine.
Might as well make 100% of the match stages prone then......

These matches need to be a challenge to the shooter or it would be boring, does the match or match director require you to tote a 17+ pound rifle? My rifle is 20+ pounds its my choice, that weight is a benefit for some statges and a detriment on others. I do not consider myself to be a great PRS shooter and I am absolutely terrible at offhand shooting, but I still enjoy it. My opinion is that every match should have an offhand stage. Kneeling, sitting, prone are pretty useless if the vegetation is very tall.