Got into a discussion with a guy last night who says that a rifle should be bedded no matter what, even if it is shooting under 0.5 and never shifts poi. what is your opinion.
Gunsmithing Opinion about bedding
- Thread starter hibc
- Start date
Re: Opinion about bedding
"If it's not broke, why fix it?"
Bedding a rifle. What's it for? What is it reeeaaalllyyy for?
In a rimfire gun (such as international smallbore, BR, silhouette, etc) it is pretty dern important if you want to do well in the higher end disciplines.
I've spent long hours at the ranges at the OTC (Olympic Training Center) in Colorado Springs and witnessed the differences between a properly bedded rifle and one that's shot "as is" direct from Anschutz.
My thoughts as to why are primarily because the projectile is traveling at roughly 1/3rd the speed of any modern, high performance centerfire cartridge. That means it spends up to 3X longer in the barrel. Lots can happen in that time.
With rimfire if you see vertical in shot groups shot from a rest, bed the gun (right) and 9/10 times it'll either reduce or eliminate the problem. If you get what I call "orphans" (fliers) bed the gun and they'll tend to cling to the group more.
Centerfires are a different animal. Almost everything is a few magnitudes bigger/faster/harder. This actually works for you as it all happens in a much shorter time span.
If you see vertical, fiddle with the load, learn to adjust parallax, and learn how to hold elevation (hint) and chances are most of it will go away.
If you see a shot group wandering to different impact points on the target over the course of a summer, bed the gun (again properly) and chances are it'll settle down and maintain a consistent no wind zero.
Bedding does not make a silk purse from a pigs ear. It makes a great rifle exceptional, it makes a good rifle great, a decent one good, etc. There's no miracle cure via bedding. least not in my experience anyway.
It is a viable step and important if a person is intent on "having it all".
There are alternatives though.
Years ago I began experimenting with CNC machining centers and gunmaking. I was tasked with generating an inlet for the Dakota Arms, Model 97 receiver in a synthetic stock produced by Robertson Composites up in Canada. (Ian's stocks ROCK!) I generated a 3D CAD surface model of the action and then devoted a weekend to fiddling with tool paths to get it to fit 1:1 with no epoxy work. In the end the gun shot just fine and unless you pulled it apart you'd never know it wasn't bedded.
We also scrapped the idea because selling a non bedded rifle with a Dakota Arms name on it was only going to be perceived as "cheaping out" by the consumers.
So, I played with one of my personal guns to pursue this little experiment. I took a wood stock and machined a 1:1 inlet for a flat bottom Nesika action I had. To date its the hardest hitting rifle in my gun collection. .096" center to center at 100 yards with Black Hills ammunition. (22-250) It does this hot, cold, humid, dirty, clean, whatever. (I'm guessing the barrel is pretty forgiving also)
Here it is;
Point from all this: If your satisfied with the performance of your rifle, leave it alone and go shoot it till the barrel falls off. Too often we "get in our head" due to comments and opinions expressed by self appointed experts at the range or local shooting hangout. FEW, and I mean FEW people actually devote the time to shoot thousands upon thousands of rounds of ammunition to truly have a qualified opinion. It's a lot of work and when "fun" becomes "work" it tends to thin the herd a bit. Yet it seems many still want their thoughts and opinions to be taken as gospel.
Good luck.
C
"If it's not broke, why fix it?"
Bedding a rifle. What's it for? What is it reeeaaalllyyy for?
In a rimfire gun (such as international smallbore, BR, silhouette, etc) it is pretty dern important if you want to do well in the higher end disciplines.
I've spent long hours at the ranges at the OTC (Olympic Training Center) in Colorado Springs and witnessed the differences between a properly bedded rifle and one that's shot "as is" direct from Anschutz.
My thoughts as to why are primarily because the projectile is traveling at roughly 1/3rd the speed of any modern, high performance centerfire cartridge. That means it spends up to 3X longer in the barrel. Lots can happen in that time.
With rimfire if you see vertical in shot groups shot from a rest, bed the gun (right) and 9/10 times it'll either reduce or eliminate the problem. If you get what I call "orphans" (fliers) bed the gun and they'll tend to cling to the group more.
Centerfires are a different animal. Almost everything is a few magnitudes bigger/faster/harder. This actually works for you as it all happens in a much shorter time span.
If you see vertical, fiddle with the load, learn to adjust parallax, and learn how to hold elevation (hint) and chances are most of it will go away.
If you see a shot group wandering to different impact points on the target over the course of a summer, bed the gun (again properly) and chances are it'll settle down and maintain a consistent no wind zero.
Bedding does not make a silk purse from a pigs ear. It makes a great rifle exceptional, it makes a good rifle great, a decent one good, etc. There's no miracle cure via bedding. least not in my experience anyway.
It is a viable step and important if a person is intent on "having it all".
There are alternatives though.
Years ago I began experimenting with CNC machining centers and gunmaking. I was tasked with generating an inlet for the Dakota Arms, Model 97 receiver in a synthetic stock produced by Robertson Composites up in Canada. (Ian's stocks ROCK!) I generated a 3D CAD surface model of the action and then devoted a weekend to fiddling with tool paths to get it to fit 1:1 with no epoxy work. In the end the gun shot just fine and unless you pulled it apart you'd never know it wasn't bedded.
We also scrapped the idea because selling a non bedded rifle with a Dakota Arms name on it was only going to be perceived as "cheaping out" by the consumers.
So, I played with one of my personal guns to pursue this little experiment. I took a wood stock and machined a 1:1 inlet for a flat bottom Nesika action I had. To date its the hardest hitting rifle in my gun collection. .096" center to center at 100 yards with Black Hills ammunition. (22-250) It does this hot, cold, humid, dirty, clean, whatever. (I'm guessing the barrel is pretty forgiving also)
Here it is;
Point from all this: If your satisfied with the performance of your rifle, leave it alone and go shoot it till the barrel falls off. Too often we "get in our head" due to comments and opinions expressed by self appointed experts at the range or local shooting hangout. FEW, and I mean FEW people actually devote the time to shoot thousands upon thousands of rounds of ammunition to truly have a qualified opinion. It's a lot of work and when "fun" becomes "work" it tends to thin the herd a bit. Yet it seems many still want their thoughts and opinions to be taken as gospel.
Good luck.
C
Re: Opinion about bedding
I would bed every rifle before the first shot even.
A target rifle might get away without bedding, but I am convinced a hunting rifle won't.
I'm convinced it will always enhance reliability, but not always accuracy.
edi
I would bed every rifle before the first shot even.
A target rifle might get away without bedding, but I am convinced a hunting rifle won't.
I'm convinced it will always enhance reliability, but not always accuracy.
edi
Re: Opinion about bedding
Well, my opinion is that bedding is used to fix potential or actual issue of not having even and uniform contact between stock and receiver, which may cause receiver bending when action screws are tightened. Bending of the receiver may cause bolt binding, stress on the scope, etc. I do not think that the primary reason for bedding is to improve accuracy, but more likely, to make gun operate smoothly and to avoid introducing unwanted (bending) stress on gun parts in general.
Possible good reference to this point is the use of barrel block,
which actually leaves receiver free-floating, and as I've heard, rifles with barrel blocks are very accurate in principle.
Well, my opinion is that bedding is used to fix potential or actual issue of not having even and uniform contact between stock and receiver, which may cause receiver bending when action screws are tightened. Bending of the receiver may cause bolt binding, stress on the scope, etc. I do not think that the primary reason for bedding is to improve accuracy, but more likely, to make gun operate smoothly and to avoid introducing unwanted (bending) stress on gun parts in general.
Possible good reference to this point is the use of barrel block,
which actually leaves receiver free-floating, and as I've heard, rifles with barrel blocks are very accurate in principle.
Re: Opinion about bedding
I bed all my rifles because none of them had a perfect no stress fit prior to bedding. Therefore, bedding was beneficial. My new unfired 700P in .338 LM was supposed to be have aluminum pillars. But the front pillar was 1/32" lower than the action after the screw were tightened. The action was setting on the sides of the stock and the front pillar was not making contact. I could see that after I bedded the rifle. With just the weight of the action, the bedding oozed out and I could see 2 black lines at 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock along the sides of the stock. I could see there was about 1/32" of epoxy on top of the aluminum. There was also a lot of side to side free play around the recoil lug prior to bedding. It was obvious that there was no way the action was going to stay in one place during temperature changes and there was no way to reassemble the rifle in exactly the same alignment in the original condition. Had I not bedded it, I would have wasted many hours and hundreds of dollars in ammo getting frustrated. Now I know the action is secure and stress free. The rifle will now shoot to it's full potential.
Why do I bed every rifle?
To ensure maximum repeatability, consistency, and accuracy.
I bed all my rifles because none of them had a perfect no stress fit prior to bedding. Therefore, bedding was beneficial. My new unfired 700P in .338 LM was supposed to be have aluminum pillars. But the front pillar was 1/32" lower than the action after the screw were tightened. The action was setting on the sides of the stock and the front pillar was not making contact. I could see that after I bedded the rifle. With just the weight of the action, the bedding oozed out and I could see 2 black lines at 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock along the sides of the stock. I could see there was about 1/32" of epoxy on top of the aluminum. There was also a lot of side to side free play around the recoil lug prior to bedding. It was obvious that there was no way the action was going to stay in one place during temperature changes and there was no way to reassemble the rifle in exactly the same alignment in the original condition. Had I not bedded it, I would have wasted many hours and hundreds of dollars in ammo getting frustrated. Now I know the action is secure and stress free. The rifle will now shoot to it's full potential.
Why do I bed every rifle?
To ensure maximum repeatability, consistency, and accuracy.
Re: Opinion about bedding
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, I played with one of my personal guns to pursue this little experiment. I took a wood stock and machined a 1:1 inlet for a flat bottom Nesika action I had. To date its the hardest hitting rifle in my gun collection. .096" center to center at 100 yards with Black Hills ammunition. (22-250) It does this hot, cold, humid, dirty, clean, whatever. (I'm guessing the barrel is pretty forgiving also)</div></div>
You have a gun that shoots 0.1 MOA all day? The hell with making rifles, you oughta go around the country taking peoples money at these competitions.
I see what you guys are saying as far as defects and bedding goes. I believed before like most people and thought that if the bedding didn't fit the action like a glove then the rifle wouldn't shoot well. Now I'm starting to think that it's really the asymmetry of the recoil impulse that causes problems on some rifles. Harold Vaughn in his book even claimed to have eliminated the effects of barrel whip by simply drilling holes to make the forward receiver ring symmetrical. I still think people should bed all their rifles, though. It's not hard to do by yourself and helps you learn your rifle. I don't know about paying a few hundred bucks for a job, though.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, I played with one of my personal guns to pursue this little experiment. I took a wood stock and machined a 1:1 inlet for a flat bottom Nesika action I had. To date its the hardest hitting rifle in my gun collection. .096" center to center at 100 yards with Black Hills ammunition. (22-250) It does this hot, cold, humid, dirty, clean, whatever. (I'm guessing the barrel is pretty forgiving also)</div></div>
You have a gun that shoots 0.1 MOA all day? The hell with making rifles, you oughta go around the country taking peoples money at these competitions.
I see what you guys are saying as far as defects and bedding goes. I believed before like most people and thought that if the bedding didn't fit the action like a glove then the rifle wouldn't shoot well. Now I'm starting to think that it's really the asymmetry of the recoil impulse that causes problems on some rifles. Harold Vaughn in his book even claimed to have eliminated the effects of barrel whip by simply drilling holes to make the forward receiver ring symmetrical. I still think people should bed all their rifles, though. It's not hard to do by yourself and helps you learn your rifle. I don't know about paying a few hundred bucks for a job, though.
Re: Opinion about bedding
Quote - But the front pillar was 1/32" lower than the action after the screw were tightened. The action was setting on the sides of the stock and the front pillar was not making contact. I could see that after I bedded the rifle. With just the weight of the action, the bedding oozed out and I could see 2 black lines at 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock along the sides of the stock. I could see there was about 1/32" of epoxy on top of the aluminum. There was also a lot of side to side free play around the recoil lug prior to bedding. It was obvious that there was no way the action was going to stay in one place during temperature changes and there was no way to reassemble the rifle in exactly the same alignment in the original condition.
I have seen this with a lot of B&Cs, adn H&Ss. Bed it.
Quote - But the front pillar was 1/32" lower than the action after the screw were tightened. The action was setting on the sides of the stock and the front pillar was not making contact. I could see that after I bedded the rifle. With just the weight of the action, the bedding oozed out and I could see 2 black lines at 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock along the sides of the stock. I could see there was about 1/32" of epoxy on top of the aluminum. There was also a lot of side to side free play around the recoil lug prior to bedding. It was obvious that there was no way the action was going to stay in one place during temperature changes and there was no way to reassemble the rifle in exactly the same alignment in the original condition.
I have seen this with a lot of B&Cs, adn H&Ss. Bed it.
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