go talk to a lawyer. Now, not when the fine is due. A lawyer will tell you if he can get you some actual relief. We on the internet forum can just spout some opinions, but offer no real relief (other than the advice to consult an attorney).
Hunting & Fishing Opinions on experience w PA game warden (not a good one)
- Thread starter Seuss
- Start date
go talk to a lawyer. Now, not when the fine is due. A lawyer will tell you if he can get you some actual relief. We on the internet forum can just spout some opinions, but offer no real relief (other than the advice to consult an attorney).
In multiple posts you cite that the OP was unarmed. You must have missed the part where he was carrying a bow.
How about you read my posts again----I never said the OP was Un-armed. In my post you quoted, I stated a hypothetical being in the woods Un-armed where you don't need orange by law, but during hunting season you would be smart to wear orange.
Cheers,
Tim
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Shall NOT be Infringed
Around here it is called "the open fields doctrine". And it is nothing more than a way to try to tap dance around legal requirements
for a search warrant.
for a search warrant.
I have not read the entire thread, but it all boils down to the enforcement officer justifying his existing by issuing fines and raising revenue to pay for his wages.
As far as I am concerned, there is a conflict of interest in the fact that their payroll is supported by the fines they generate.
Also, some let their ego get in the way of the performance of their job.
It would have been a better pr move to show a little discretion in a matter like this.
As far as I am concerned, there is a conflict of interest in the fact that their payroll is supported by the fines they generate.
Also, some let their ego get in the way of the performance of their job.
It would have been a better pr move to show a little discretion in a matter like this.
This is exactly the spirit of the PA game commission. Don't miss it one bit. I have never met a decent man in that uniform, I don't know what they put in the academy kool-aid, but it's powerful stuff. Pay your fine and then befriend all the thugs. Like prison you can just give up your brownie and butthole and then the bad men will be your friends!
Nice job not wearing the orange hat. Sounds like if you had it on there wouldn't have been an issue. I think time better spent for you, instead of whining on the internet, would be to research the hunting laws where you live.
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Here in Michigan a friend shot 2 deer with one shot on an army base hunt. He reported it to the camp commander & the DNR who came & ticketed him for being in possession of an untagged deer. He went to court & won. Another friend was target shooting in his backyard(800 acre farm) with his young daughter & a 22 when the DNR drove in & issued a ticket for having a 22 in deer season. He lost. I'd have to fight it on principle alone even if it cost more. My rights are worth it IMHO.
I had a close call last year in Missouri with the game commission. I walked out to my vehicle parked in my father in laws field and right behind it was the game wardens truck. I thought I was screwed the way the younger guy started out since I didn't sign my tags and didn't tag my deer before walking back to the vehicle since I didn't have my knife or zip ties on me. On the quarter mile walk back he informed me that I was up to four violations and how he hasn't even seen the deer yet. He ended up being pretty decent after seeing the deer but I know my stop was because of the out of state plates.
Opinions on experience w PA game warden (not a good one)
Now assume that you say the same thing because you don't want to commit perjury.
Whom do you think the trier of fact is going to believe: You, or the officer?
Assume that the officer testifies that he saw you not wearing your hat. Is that enough evidence to send to the judge or jury the question of proof regarding you not having worn your hat?
Now assume that you say the same thing because you don't want to commit perjury.
Whom do you think the trier of fact is going to believe: You, or the officer?
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You're completely right, I wouldnt argue with you there, I'm just saying I would fight based on my principles alone. I don't feel a game warden, or anyone else should sneak around on my property based on some really flimsy premise.
My previous example that I didn't spell out was this...
A state trooper did a u-turn to pull my wife over (a good Looking little blonde). just so happens I was following her, and she wasn't speeding. He came up to the passenger side window and started griping that she was going 15 over. He then opened her glove box where my oxycodone, morphine and hydrocodone were. He took the pills out and told her she was going to be arrested. By this time I was standing next to him, and he was fixated enough that he never saw me until I asked him who's name was on the bottle, and if he found the letter in there from my doctor saying my wife was responsible for my pills, via power of attorney, to avoid me accidentally overdosing. He flipped his lid, saying he didn't give a shit about my letter.
When the long list of citations he gave us went to court, neither of us had hard proof of anything, but we walked away clean, and he's probably a campus cop somewhere.
On the positive side, me and 3 buddies in high school (years ago) were camping at the lake, and doing a lot of shooting. Sitting around the fire, when two wardens and a deputy popped out of the woods on us. They questioned me about the shooting that got called in. "yessir, we were, and my guns are unloaded in the tent." he responded, "may I please look in the tent and cooler?" I answered yes, and he looked in the tent and cooler, without tossing everything, like the park rangers usually did.
He then sat down on the cooler and told us how proud he was of us for enjoying the outdoors without drinking underage. They stayed for a couple hours and cooked hotdogs with us.
That is the kind of LEO I respect greatly. They are there to serve and protect, not to invade and harass. We shouldn't pay people to make our lives harder. I just cant stand the ultimate warrior mindset you see with some LEO, where they think they are force Delta SEAL Rangers. Seriously?
"BTW - we don't own our own land anymore - we are just "allowed" to live there by the good graces of our government and the corporations that finance the politicians".
Is Glenn Beck using a pseudonym now?
Is Glenn Beck using a pseudonym now?
ArmaDude - "Do you know your state senator for your area? You can do either that(contact a legislator), or file a complaint or grievance of sorts with the Officer's head office in regards to."
Whoa Friend, Kind of using a sledge hammer to crack a wallnut don't you think? Unless you're sure that the officer had no official right to be there, and reasonable suspicion of a crime occuring can be sufficient exigent circumstances to enter property without a warrant - what are you specifically going to complain about? Now I'm not saying I would have done what the CO did, in fact I think it was a teeny bit chicken &%#$, but if he was acting within his authority, jurisdiction and was lawfully on the property, you don't have a complaint, right?
I feel for Seuss - $300.00 really OUCH!! Anyway, any defense would likely boil down to whether the officer was lawfully on the property. (No mention was made whether the property was posted) As to Seuss's comment about why CO's sit around waiting for people to come back to their trucks. It's like Willy Sutton said when asked why he robbed banks; "Cause that's where the money is"!
Have a good one!
Whoa Friend, Kind of using a sledge hammer to crack a wallnut don't you think?
Unless you're sure that the officer had no official right to be there, and reasonable suspicion of a crime occuring can be sufficient exigent circumstances to enter property without a warrant - what are you specifically going to complain about? Now I'm not saying I would have done what the CO did, in fact I think it was a teeny bit chicken &%#$, but if he was acting within his authority, jurisdiction and was lawfully on the property, you don't have a complaint, right? I feel for Seuss - $300.00 really OUCH!! Anyway, any defense would likely boil down to whether the officer was lawfully on the property. (No mention was made whether the property was posted) As to Seuss's comment about why CO's sit around waiting for people to come back to their trucks. It's like Willy Sutton said when asked why he robbed banks; "Cause that's where the money is"!
Have a good one!
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That is a real rub having them come on your property and pull the heavy handed approach. The bad news is whether you fight the ticket and win, or take the lumps and pay the fine; you still live on the same property that you want to keep hunting for the foreseeable future. Meanwhile the same two conservation officers will cover that same region of the Commonwealth for the foreseeable future as well. Since you guys are stuck with each other, and you know you made a mistake (albeit minor); it seems like you might want to look at the best future outcome rather than trying to change the past... There's a lot of opportunity there for those particular guys to make hunting on your land a real pain if you stir the pot.
In your shoes, I'd take the lumps and pay the fine; then make an effort to get to know the local CO's, establish a positive relationship so they're not hassling you in the future, and then righteously bitch about the incident at future deer camps and bad hunting story occasions to ease the sting of the fine...
I have met a few of the CO's on our side of the state, and they have been decent; but I haven't run afoul of any rules.
In your shoes, I'd take the lumps and pay the fine; then make an effort to get to know the local CO's, establish a positive relationship so they're not hassling you in the future, and then righteously bitch about the incident at future deer camps and bad hunting story occasions to ease the sting of the fine...
I have met a few of the CO's on our side of the state, and they have been decent; but I haven't run afoul of any rules.
Forcing you to wear orange attire on your own property is about as stupid as a screen door on a submarine. Conservation officers are there to manage the wildlife. How does wearing a hat on your own property effect the wildlife?
If you were on public land it could be argued that you need to be visible to other hunters but on your own land?
If you were on public land it could be argued that you need to be visible to other hunters but on your own land?
In the northeast wearing orange on your own land is a safety issue. Right of trespass is taken for granted and you never really know who may be bumping around in "your" woods. I had a friend living outside of Ithaca NY a few years ago and their house butted up against some woodland. It was not terribly unheard of to see a hunter walking through their back yard during general gun season. I hunted the general season out there precisely once and vowed to never do it again and to only hunt the bow season. At least when you are in a tree stand you are less likely to be mistaken for a deer. "If its brown, it's down" takes on new meaning up there...
And, conservation officers are there to enforce all game laws, even the ones that someone may not like. Like it or not, wearing a $5 orange hat would have saved all of this drama.
This really sticks in my craw,the fact that you were on your land should have ended it,It saddens me how few rights we have these days...keeps getting worse, I vote fight it ,Push back!!!
I'm Glad I dont live in PA
I'm Glad I dont live in PA
Try living in Minnesota... More laws and nuts trying to "save the wolves" every day. I have had many run ins with CO's here that have put a very nasty taste in my mouth.
Part of the problem is there are so many regulations in all aspects of our lives, in business or recreation.There is no way anyone can know all the laws and regulations that are passed that affect our lives.We ALL are in violation of a regulation at one time or another.
What is disappointing in this case is the behavior of the CO.
What is disappointing in this case is the behavior of the CO.
A GW does not need probable cause, he can come onto property even if the gate is locked and he is not required to wear orange due to him not being a hunter. Had he came up to you after you had already been at your truck he wouldn't have been able to prove that you were not wearing enough orange in and out of the field and in that case I would say you had a chance to win in court. If it were me I would pay the fine since there was clearly a violation of not wearing enough orange. Getting a lawyer will cost a lot more than your $300 fine and most likely you will loose the case in court.
I do not like it but, I have to agree. Pay the fine. I went to court for a BS citation once a few years ago (fine was $67.50). My innocence was a gray area at best. Since I had a clean record in that state the judge promptly told me that he would drop the charges as long as I was not caught doing similar things during the course of the next 2 yrs (probation). I agreed, and then he said, "Pay the court clerk $67.50 for court costs". WTF? I felt that I had been duped. I could have stayed home and mailed them a check.
Bottom line is that you were in violation of state hunting laws, and were caught red-handed. If you fight and win, you are likely to still have to pay "Court Costs" and if you lose, well the fees will be higher. Without lying to the court you really do not have a case. That is not much of an example to set for your son. The CO has every right to be there since he was performing his job. His probable cause was spotting a potential hunter's vehicle and stayed around long enough to check him for proper license, etc. They do it all the time.
Despite being from KY, I do most of my deer hunting in WV where we have a cabin on private land. I am friends with a PA State Trooper who also comes to WV each year to hunt because of all the regs in PA. WV is very hunter friendly. So, next time head south and join us.
Irish
First, better buy an orange hat or three. It shows an innocent intent.
Second, no matter what you do, this is going to cost you, and paying the fine could end up being the cheapest option.
My larger concern would be if/how such a conviction might have any bearing on your continued firearms ownership rights, and yes, a bow is considered a firearm.
Then, this is not just between you, the CO, and some Judge.
There is also the Prosecutor.
You could simply pay the fine, which also involves a mandatory 'guilty' plea and conviction on your record; or you could contact the Prosecutor and try to negotiate the charge down to something that does not imply a conviction on terms that could impair your firearms rights or hunting privileges, perhaps to something like misdemeanor disorderly conduct. Even if the fine is greater, it could end up being less of a hassle in the end. Explain that you have no qualms with paying a/the fine, but that you believe the circumstances were predatory and arbitrary, and that you are more concerned about any subsequent implications on your gun rights and hunting privilege (and especially those of your son) under such conditions where no victimization could possibly be present. I would suggest that pleading to a lesser and more generic charge would be preferable, no matter what the monetary cost of the consequent fine. Simply being put on your best behavior for a year is also an option.
Make it clear that if the original charges stand, there will be a vigorous and well publicized defense. If they stonewall you, have your Lawyer get in touch with the local media immediately, before some Judge can issue any gag orders. Local TV stations love this stuff, it sells a lot of underarm deodorant, etc., for their advertisers.
While this might seem financially counterproductive, finding a lawyer who has a positive relationship with the prosecutor could be cheap at twice the price. Let the Lawyer do your talking with the Prosecutor. Do this right and you could spare yourself and your Son from the influence of some capricious or biased judge, as well as recorded/archived testimony and/or adjudications on a court transcript. I would also seek to have the records of any convictions naming your Son be sealed or even immediately expunged, whatever he's charged with he was in the presence of and under the direct authority of a responsible parent, who should rightly bear all responsibility.
Prosecuting children for the acts of their responsible adults does not set a good legal precedent, and court officers who stand for election do not need such precedents on their records. Don't be afraid to bend them over backward where their political careers are involved, but having your Lawyer do it instead is way more preferable.
Money and pride are not the issues here, you need to ensure that you and your Son are not perpetually encumbered by arbitrary and/or mandatory legal encumbrances. Once the summons has been issued, there's going to be a cash outlay no matter how you play this; so you may as well get your money's worth, and have things end on a more favorable note.
In a recent legal incident involving a close relative, we (we are a family) followed this course, Although a court appearance and a plea of 'no contest' were required, the charges were far more favorable (no mention in the papers), there was no sentence involved (there could have been), and the costs for court fees, lawyer fees, and fine (about $1000 all inclusive) were far preferable to visiting a relative in some correctional facility. Cheap at twice the price, I'd say...
This may not go over well with the CO, they can get ornery, and this guy already knows where you live...
If they try anything like intimidation, etc., you get it on record (with the Prosecutor's office, via your lawyer) that you believe your are being intimidated and harassed. If that doesn't do the trick, charge the CO formally with felony intimidation and police harassment, as well as threatening civil suit. They do it all for their retirement, and they will usually back off when the alternative involves having to face a legitimate criminal charge.
But most of all, clear the air about not being willing to be some CO's clown/patsy. Don't be afraid to whip out your cellphone on the spot and in a loud and frightened voice, tell them that you are unarmed and currently being threatened by an armed assailant.
After all it's the truth!
Greg
Second, no matter what you do, this is going to cost you, and paying the fine could end up being the cheapest option.
My larger concern would be if/how such a conviction might have any bearing on your continued firearms ownership rights, and yes, a bow is considered a firearm.
Then, this is not just between you, the CO, and some Judge.
There is also the Prosecutor.
You could simply pay the fine, which also involves a mandatory 'guilty' plea and conviction on your record; or you could contact the Prosecutor and try to negotiate the charge down to something that does not imply a conviction on terms that could impair your firearms rights or hunting privileges, perhaps to something like misdemeanor disorderly conduct. Even if the fine is greater, it could end up being less of a hassle in the end. Explain that you have no qualms with paying a/the fine, but that you believe the circumstances were predatory and arbitrary, and that you are more concerned about any subsequent implications on your gun rights and hunting privilege (and especially those of your son) under such conditions where no victimization could possibly be present. I would suggest that pleading to a lesser and more generic charge would be preferable, no matter what the monetary cost of the consequent fine. Simply being put on your best behavior for a year is also an option.
Make it clear that if the original charges stand, there will be a vigorous and well publicized defense. If they stonewall you, have your Lawyer get in touch with the local media immediately, before some Judge can issue any gag orders. Local TV stations love this stuff, it sells a lot of underarm deodorant, etc., for their advertisers.
While this might seem financially counterproductive, finding a lawyer who has a positive relationship with the prosecutor could be cheap at twice the price. Let the Lawyer do your talking with the Prosecutor. Do this right and you could spare yourself and your Son from the influence of some capricious or biased judge, as well as recorded/archived testimony and/or adjudications on a court transcript. I would also seek to have the records of any convictions naming your Son be sealed or even immediately expunged, whatever he's charged with he was in the presence of and under the direct authority of a responsible parent, who should rightly bear all responsibility.
Prosecuting children for the acts of their responsible adults does not set a good legal precedent, and court officers who stand for election do not need such precedents on their records. Don't be afraid to bend them over backward where their political careers are involved, but having your Lawyer do it instead is way more preferable.
Money and pride are not the issues here, you need to ensure that you and your Son are not perpetually encumbered by arbitrary and/or mandatory legal encumbrances. Once the summons has been issued, there's going to be a cash outlay no matter how you play this; so you may as well get your money's worth, and have things end on a more favorable note.
In a recent legal incident involving a close relative, we (we are a family) followed this course, Although a court appearance and a plea of 'no contest' were required, the charges were far more favorable (no mention in the papers), there was no sentence involved (there could have been), and the costs for court fees, lawyer fees, and fine (about $1000 all inclusive) were far preferable to visiting a relative in some correctional facility. Cheap at twice the price, I'd say...
This may not go over well with the CO, they can get ornery, and this guy already knows where you live...
If they try anything like intimidation, etc., you get it on record (with the Prosecutor's office, via your lawyer) that you believe your are being intimidated and harassed. If that doesn't do the trick, charge the CO formally with felony intimidation and police harassment, as well as threatening civil suit. They do it all for their retirement, and they will usually back off when the alternative involves having to face a legitimate criminal charge.
But most of all, clear the air about not being willing to be some CO's clown/patsy. Don't be afraid to whip out your cellphone on the spot and in a loud and frightened voice, tell them that you are unarmed and currently being threatened by an armed assailant.
After all it's the truth!
Greg
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Court isn't the place to discuss the conduct of the CO. The Court is going to focus on the elements of the offense you are/will be charged and the evidence in the case.
Talk to the post commander about the conduct of the COs. It could result in a nolle prossed complaint.
When you go to court, ask the officer if he witnessed you hunting without the required orange. By your own admission, it was dark. I would assume that you were not hunting after dark or you would have been sited for that too. You could have lost your hat on the way back to the truck....
The op was never whining. The only person you make look bad in your post is yourself.
I don't know the laws read there, but here in Oklahoma if you are in the field with weapon you are considered to be hunting. Walking to the truck after dark with weapon would be considered hunting therefore orange is still required just as orange is required before daylight on the way into the field.
It hurt but I sent my $$$ and it's done.
Orange hats coming out our posteriors now.
We look purty.
Orange hats coming out our posteriors now.
We look purty.
Opinions on experience w PA game warden (not a good one)
The lesson was that it is supposed to be worn on your head: You are going to get another ticket.
Didn't he ask you if you where the one doing all the shooting? Doesn't he have to call in when searching for shots fired? If your lawer asks and find that not the case would the stop be unwarranted? He might of pulled that out of the air.. They have no respect for pa a hunters, they don't conduct themselves professionally and I really don't care for them. Good luck. I'd try get a cort date first day of buck season! He won't be there.
Graham,
When I pull my head out of my a**, which I've been told to do more often, the hat will go on automatically.
Opinions on experience w PA game warden (not a good one)
I just knew you had a strategy.?
Here just deriving in a field is illegal. “Trespass on cultivated land”. Doesn’t neee posted or be planted or anything
And there was no gun present. They should have apologized for trespassing then left.
did he touch you in the naughty places , preform a recital exam ? then no matter how uncomfortable your meeting is it could have been a lot worse , Some things in life are bad they can really make you mad . other things just make you swear and curse . when your chewing on life's gristle don't grumble give a whistle and this will help things turn out for the best and
Nope.
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