Optic Manipulation

skatz11

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What are the thoughts on scope manipulation ? I’ve never put much thought into this. After getting hooked on some NRL 22 action I want to refine my technique.

I’ve seen some modern day sniper videos demonstrating using the firing hand to dial. I’m noticing that I’ve been using my support hand for parallax and elevation.

I’m left handed and right eye dominant so I’ve always shot long guns right handed, but pistol and just about everything else i do is left handed. My left hand just wants to reach for the turrets.

My right hand is only good at pulling a rifle trigger and reloading a pistol.

Should I work on breaking this habit or roll on since I’m comfortable and it doesn’t seem like it’s causing any problems.
 

david8989

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I think it's application specific. If I'm shooting in a compromised position, non-prone, then I will use my support hand because I need to keep the rifle secure with my firing hand on the barricade and in my shoulder. If I'm shooting prone, then I see the benefit of using your firing hand as you can keep the rifle on target and face on the gun during the adjustment. MDS advocates staying as consistent as possible through the firing sequence and using your firing hand to make adjustments helps accommodate this. In your unique situation, I'd say whichever method allows you to stay on the gun and keep the gun on target the easiest through the adjustments will be your winner.
 
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Dthomas3523

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    I think it's application specific. If I'm shooting in a compromised position, non-prone, then I will use my support hand because I need to keep the rifle secure with my firing hand on the barricade and in my shoulder. If I'm shooting prone, then I see the benefit of using your firing hand as you can keep the rifle on target and face on the gun during the adjustment. MDS advocates staying as consistent as possible through the firing sequence and using your firing hand to make adjustments helps accommodate this. In your unique situation, I'd say whichever method allows you to stay on the gun and keep the gun on target the easiest through the adjustments will be your winner.
    For 99% of barricades/props, you shouldn’t need your firing hand to support the rifle. If you did, you wouldn’t be able to run the bolt without rebuilding your position. If you can run your bolt and keep on target, then you can dial with that hand and stay on target.

    When you use your support hand to dial, you are making more movements than necessary.

    Your support hand is there to do exactly that, support the rifle. Your firing hand is already off the rifle and economy of motion means you should be using it to dial as its already in motion.

    The only time it makes sense to dial with support hand is right before/after a position change as you’re already moving. Otherwise, the firing hand is the most efficient.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    For example, if you’re on any prop and you have your support hand on the optic or forearm of the rifle and you dial with your support hand, here is the sequence of movements.

    Firing hand opens bolt
    Firing hand goes back to grip
    Support hand leaves rifle and dials
    Support hand goes back to rifle
    Firing hand leaves rifle and closes bolt/returns to grip

    When you use your firing hand:

    Firing hand opens bolt
    Firing hand Dials
    Firing hand closes bolt and returns to grip
     

    david8989

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    For 99% of barricades/props, you shouldn’t need your firing hand to support the rifle. If you did, you wouldn’t be able to run the bolt without rebuilding your position. If you can run your bolt and keep on target, then you can dial with that hand and stay on target.

    When you use your support hand to dial, you are making more movements than necessary.

    Your support hand is there to do exactly that, support the rifle. Your firing hand is already off the rifle and economy of motion means you should be using it to dial as its already in motion.

    The only time it makes sense to dial with support hand is right before/after a position change as you’re already moving. Otherwise, the firing hand is the most efficient.
    I guess my brain has been wired backwards, lol! I'm not above giving something different a try since you've made some pretty convincing points. Good info, as always sir.
     
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    Dthomas3523

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    I guess my brain has been wired backwards, lol! I'm not above giving something different a try since you've made some pretty convincing points. Good info, as always sir.
    I was the same way. Once I started practicing with my firing hand, I realized people were right about it.

    It does take a bit of conscious practice before it’s a habit.
     

    david8989

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    I was the same way. Once I started practicing with my firing hand, I realized people were right about it.

    It does take a bit of conscious practice before it’s a habit.
    Definitely gonna take some practice to install that new habit, lol. Sounds like a slow dry fire element to incorporate
     

    308pirate

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    Or maybe you could just setup some dry fire drills to try different ways of doing things, seeing what's faster/more efficient on a timer, and do that.
     

    chevy_man

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    There's no real right or wrong. Just theoretical.

    Do what works for you.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    There's no real right or wrong. Just theoretical.

    Do what works for you.
    Until you’re on a 90s stage and you burn 8-10 seconds over the course of three or so dials because you switched your hands when you didn’t need to.
     
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    The_Count

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    I've gotten in the habit of using my firing hand. In most cases you can remove and replace the firing hand more easily than the support hand.
     
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    Secant

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    I was also converted after watching some video that Phil Velayo put out, and it is far more efficient. That was also about the time I picked up a Kahles, which helped my "transition". It's now an unconscious reaction. If I need to dial, adjust parallax, or zoom in/out, my firing hand automatically goes to work. Even 'traditional' optics with the parallax on the left side, I just perform a old fashion reach around, haha.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    I was also converted after watching some video that Phil Velayo put out, and it is far more efficient. That was also about the time I picked up a Kahles, which helped my "transition". It's now an unconscious reaction. If I need to dial, adjust parallax, or zoom in/out, my firing hand automatically goes to work. Even 'traditional' optics with the parallax on the left side, I just perform a old fashion reach around, haha.
    Once you sit down and just think about it, using the firing hand is clearly more efficient. There really is no way to argue against it in most situations.

    One can say they are more “comfortable” one way. But we have all be comfortable doing something either wrong or slower than we should be.
     
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    chevy_man

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    Until you’re on a 90s stage and you burn 8-10 seconds over the course of three or so dials because you switched your hands when you didn’t need to.
    Isn't that why we run reticles? I'll dial the closest target and hold the rest if time is that short.

    Generally I'll get into position and just hold my left hand on the scope the entire time if I think I really need to dial. Right hand comes up when I'm slung up tight for whatever reason.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    Isn't that why we run reticles? I'll dial the closest target and hold the rest if time is that short.

    Generally I'll get into position and just hold my left hand on the scope the entire time if I think I really need to dial. Right hand comes up when I'm slung up tight for whatever reason.
    Most everyone dials when they have time. So no, that’s not why we run reticles. Typically a tree is more for utility than as a main use.

    Time is always that short at bigger matches. If you’re having issues with time dialing on standard stages, you’re moving too slow. Your firing hand is already off the rifle to run bolt. There is no way to argue the efficiency of motion.

    The whole “slow is smooth” saying is bullshit. Slow is slow. Smooth can and should be fast.
     
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    308pirate

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    The whole “slow is smooth” saying is bullshit. Slow is slow.
    LOL

    I love it when people come to a match (rifle or pistol) thinking that. I know I don't have to worry about being beaten by them.

    Economy of motion is one key to being fast. The other, and I don't know how it might apply to PRS matches, is to do everything sooner rather than just frenetically rushing around.
     
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    skatz11

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    LOL

    I love it when people come to a match (rifle or pistol) thinking that. I know I don't have to worry about being beaten by them.

    Economy of motion is one key to being fast. The other, and I don't know how it might apply to PRS matches, is to do everything sooner rather than just frenetically rushing around.
    I’m new to PRS style matches. Just a handful of 22 NRLs so far. I’ve been shooting USPSA and 3gun for awhile now. The efficiency of movement and the sooner mindset does apply. You can’t shoot into or out of a position like USPSA, but you can get into a stable position and send the first shot as soon as possible. I think that and locat g/transitioning targets are the big time suckers in PRS shooting. That’s what I’ve been focusing on. Probably way more important than how I adjust my scope. I just figured it was worth looking into.
     
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    chevy_man

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    Most everyone dials when they have time. So no, that’s not why we run reticles. Typically a tree is more for utility than as a main use.

    Time is always that short at bigger matches. If you’re having issues with time dialing on standard stages, you’re moving too slow. Your firing hand is already off the rifle to run bolt. There is no way to argue the efficiency of motion.

    The whole “slow is smooth” saying is bullshit. Slow is slow. Smooth can and should be fast.

    Exactly. When you have time.

    When they take away the time just hold. It's allowed me to finish tight stages with time to spare.

    If I only had a cookie for everyone I've seen time out while dicking with their turrets I'd be fat.
     
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