Rifle Scopes Optics Upgrade Recommendations

[aaron_c]

Hey guys, I've got an Aimpoint ML2 right now but I've been finding myself wishing I had some magnification lately, as my eyes aren't really the greatest. Originally I was going to put a 3x FTS magnifier on it, but is the 4moa dot too big for my needs when paired with a 3x magnifier? I've also looked at the TA01NSN (plus mini reflex), TA33, and the possibility of a 1-4x. I'm going to go through the key criteria in the 'Optics Selection' thread to help you guys get an idea of what I need.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Intended Use:</span> The rifle is a 16" BCM middy with a fixed front sight post. I take the rifle when camping etc., and use it as sort of a do-it-all rifle. Hunting, bumps in the night, whatever. The ranges there would vary from 0-200 yards or so. I don't really intend to use it in a home defense role as I have a 9mm handgun but I would like the ability to do so if, for some reason, I have to. That brings me to my usual distances at the rifle range- we have two ranges within an hour or more of here, one is a 25-yard indoor range and one is a 100-yard rifle range. Any shooting I do beyond that is done on private property and such, and again the distances probably top out at 200 yards or so.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Budget:</span> For adding a magnifier to the Aimpoint, my budget is probably in the $200-300 range. For any other optic replacing the ML2, my budget is probably about $600 cash + whatever I can get for my Aimpoint ($350-400 I would assume, though I haven't looked into it) for a total of around $1000, possibly a bit less.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Features:</span> I'd like an illuminated reticle somewhere for fast target acquisition (hence mentioning the TA01NSN + mini reflex combo, as is has no BAC feature). I'd also like a .223 BDC. Other than that, I'm not sure there are many specific features I need.
<span style="font-weight: bold">
Magnification:</span> As I said earlier, 0-200 yards probably 99% of the time or more, so whatever magnification is generally needed for those ranges.

I think that's all the info I really have on it, what do you guys think? Stick with the ML2 and add an FTS magnifier, one of the ACOGs, a 1-4x? Thanks!

 

[jasonk]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

For 0-200 yards I'm not sure you need a BDC reticle, sight in at like 50 or 100 yards and I think you're +/- like 2" all the way to about 250 yards, but I need to check that.

I've got one of the 1-4s on the way from the group buy, I'm not sure how the front sight will be cowitnessed, it might be in the way and if so I guess I'll be either getting a different gas block or taking out the Dremel

I've realized that I need some magnification myself, being a bolt rifle guy most the time the red dot just doesn't do it for me, but I still want to be able to go down to 1x should I need to. I'm really looking forward to the 1-4SS.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2520975#Post2520975

 

[aaron_c]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

Thanks for the reply, Jason! Any other opinions on it?

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

an M4 shooting green tip M855 62gr penetrator ammo... the bullet drops an average of 5" at 300 meters... according to the Army Reserve Small Arms Readiness Group teachings... we were taught to zero 5" high at 100m w/ a M68 CCO (Aimpoint Comp M4), aim 6 o'clock at 50m and 100m, and center mass out to 300m, then 12 o'clock out to 600m... It worked, it worked very well w/ a 3x magnifier...

I personally won't give an opinion on what you should use for optics on a 16" AR, but the above works, and adding a 3x magnifier would be your most economical choice...

the only thing I'll add is that the CCO is a 2MOA dot, but at 200-250yds, I'd think a 4MOA dot would work

edit to add...look at the Vortex magnifier for cost

 

[aaron_c]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

Thanks for the reply, force_multiplier. I was curious as to how you'd estimate bullet drop/rise with just the magnifier and the Aimpoint. I should do a little research on the AR15 .223 bullet trajectory for my setup and memorize it probably- looks like I'm going for the magnifier! That was my initial plan, it looks badass (IMO), and is very versatile for my needs.

I'm not sure if I'll go with the Primary Arms Deluxe 3x or the Vortex yet- the Vortex has longer eye relief but the PA is cheaper by $30 or so, and I like that its rubber protector/grip thing isn't covered in aesthetic lines and logos.

 

[Black Majik]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

How about a 1-4x Accupoint? It'll have a really bright FO reticle and still offers fast target acquisition. Perfect for 1-200 yard use.

 

[aaron_c]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

I've heavily considered those Black Majik. Actually it's the Vortex PST 1-4x I've strongly considered, because of being about $300 cheaper and still by all acounts extremely good. I'm just not sure I like the reticle options of the Accupoint, and i'm not sure the PST would be bright enough for BAC.

 

[TonyAngel]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

Have you ever used any of this equipment that you're thinking about buying? Magnifiers in FTS mounts are not ideal. I'd imagine that their purpose was to give soldiers in the field and bit more range, but for civvy's, magnifiers don't really serve any purpose, unless the feeling of being cool is all that matters to you.

Magnifiers are big, the are heavy, the glass is in the lower range of quality and they have really short eye relief. If you're going to pair a red dot with a magnifier, you can just about run a Nightforce 2.5-10X32 for the same size, weight and price.

The ACOGs are also pretty task specific and are by no means a good "all around" optic. Most of them suffer from short eye relief and narrow fields of view. Don't buy an ACOG without trying it first, if you can. I know LOTS of guys that bought ACOGs because they fell in love with the idea of them, but in use, the ACOGs left something to be desired.

For your uses, I'd say take a look at a couple a couple of 1-4Xs, or many even a 2-7X.

 

[Opticsspecialist]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

i would use a 1-4 optic, save a little more and get your self a nightforce, or take a look at the trijicon and burris 1-4x optics.

 

[cjgemm]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

100 - 200 yards, the TR24 is what I would go with.

 

[aaron_c]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

Thanks for the continued discussion, guys. To answer someones question, no, I have no way of getting my hands on a magnifier or an ACOG. I can look at a couple of 1-4x's at the local gun shops, but in this part of the south, anything remotely considered 'tactical' is very hard to find (everyone is far more concerned with hunting gear).

I do want to keep the ability to have a quick target acquisition. Being a college student, the Accupoint + mount will be stretching my budget, and any NightForce stuff will unfortunately be too expensive right now. It's not so much that I "can't" afford it, I just can't justify that much added cost for something that's basically just a fairly expensive hobby.

I think I may look more at the Vortex PST 1-4x, maybe in a QD mount. Is there any way to find out if the BAC works with the Vortex PST, or any of the other of the illuminated reticle 1-4x scopes? I'm in no rush to commit to a purchase without being 100% sure, so I've got time to think on it and discuss it with those who know a lot more than I do.

 

[TonyAngel]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

aaronc, the only ACOG that pops into my head that is under $1000, is the TA33. It is a nice optic as far as ACOGs go. It has a longer eye relief and a much more forgiving eye box, but it has a really narrow field of view.

If you want something tacticool, then take your pick of what's available. If you really want something useful that won't break the bank, two scopes come to mind.

The first is the Nikon African, which is a 1-4X. These have nice glass, although a pretty plain jane reticle. The other is a Sightron that has been discontinued, but you may still be able to find one. It is the SII Big Sky 1.5-5X20. This was a very nice scope at around $300, plus the mount. When I got this one, I bought it and an ACOG TA33G-H. I bought it for the same reasons that you are looking for an "upgrade." After having used both, I sold the TA33 and kept the Sightron. The glass was better, it gathered light better and had much better resolution.

I've had quite a few ACOGs and the only one that I still have is a TA44s-10. It was the only one that was actually useful to me.

 

[1fast10]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

Look at the Burris xtr (1-4) combo with the fast fire red dot on top. Just my .02 cents

 

[1fast10]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

http://www.gunforall.com/shopcart/mcartf...all%20g2%20w/ff

Heres a link hopefilly i did it right

 

[Wild_Man]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

I think for your purpose and budget, the Aimpoint and magnifier is definitely the way to go. You will be using the straight Aimpoint most of the time and can quickly flip the mag in place for a longer shot. Zero at 50 yds and you should be gtg.

 

[aaron_c]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

So the ACOG has been ruled out and I'm down to a 1-4x, or a magnifier. I've got a lot of subjective opinions (all very well founded by the way), but I have a couple of obective questions/points.

1. The magnifier + Aimpoint will be more rugged, tough, harder to damage/destroy than the 1-4x + mini reflex + guard wings, right? I mean as far as getting bumped around in the woods, possibly getting some water exposure, maybe getting dropped or having the weapon fall over when propped up (this hasn't happened to me before but who knows).

2. It's pretty universally agreed upon that the 1-4x + mini reflex will have better glass than Aimpoint + magnifier right? I spent a lot of time looking at the Burris Tac30 last night, it looks really good as well and the BDC appears to be designed with the .223 16" barrel rifle in mind.

 

[mateofeo85]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

aaron, i'm going to add another vote to the 1-4x route. may i suggest a Vortex Viper PST 1-4x. Here's why:

1. Price: at $500 (+ approx $150 for a decent q/d mount) its well within, if not under, the price range you've considered for a reflex/magnifier combo or an acog.

2. Range: if you consider shooting under 300 yds, 4x is definitely there, and it has very nice glass quality for a <$1000 optic.

3. Home protection/3-gun: it does have a true 1x magnification so it can simulate what you'd see with a reflex sight in close quarters and provide fast target aquisition.

4. Illumination: has visible illumination in daylight and at night should you shoot with limited lighting.

5. Reticle: i think it's more important for one to learn the trajectory characteristics of your cartridge than to rely on a BDC reticle. the vortex gives you the option of a MOA or MIL reticle that are both incredibly easy to learn and make adjustments/holdovers with.

6. Reliability/Durability: Lifetime fully transferable warranty, not too huge to get banged around atop a black rifle, available Butler Creek flip covers. I recently was at my range in 30-40 mph winds (dumb, i know) and the southern New Mexico dirt found its way into every crack and surface on my gun and scope. fwiw, the optic cleaned up with a can of air and a rag, the seals seemed to provide great protection from the elements.

Good luck with your purchase. i am incredibly happy with my Viper PST MOA atop my 16" middy AR for all of the reasons described above.

 

[aaron_c]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

You don't happen to have a picture of your setup, do you mateofeo?

 

[mateofeo85]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

Yessir!

 

[aaron_c]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

nice looking rifle! If I'm going to put a mini reflex on top, I won't need an illuminated reticle for BAC really...would I be able to get glass comparable to the Viper PST for less money, with a non-illuminated reticle?

 

[mateofeo85]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

Unless you care about dropping to a 1" tube from a 30mm tube, most other 1-4x optics under the PST's price; including Leupold, Burris, Millet, and Bushnell; are going to be illuminated.

You could put any of these in something like the Burris P.E.P.R. mount with a reflex on top. But, that's two optics that could be easily consolidated into one; less complications, less stuff to break.

I'm sure you'll eventually read here on the hide if you haven't already, "buy once, cry once."

 

[aaron_c]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

Yeah I definitely agree with the 'buy once cry once' rule of thumb with optics (i.e. the Aimpoint). I think the 1-4x setup is the way to go, I'll just have to sit back and think (and read) on which one I should go with. I'm really starting to like that "recon carbine" look as well, the more pictures I see.

 

[aaron_c]

Re: Optics Upgrade Recommendations

I just found samplelist, I'm thinking I'll probably get a low power variable off there if I find one of the really good ones within my price range. As long as it's graded A or B, I don't think I'd have any issues with it being a demo/used, given the quality of the higher end optics.