Looking for advice on the most optimal scope employed by LEO snipers. Went through the search, but looking for actual experience in the field. We're using the Rem.700 in 308, and considering upgrading our optics. Thanks...
Rifle Scopes Optimal LEO Scope
- Thread starter bterry
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Re: Optimal LEO Scope
If you want to know the most popular LEO scope many will tell you the Mark 4's are probably the most common. As far as optimal you need to address what your team wants and needs are. Are you looking for 1/4 MOA or Mil adjustments? Front focal or Second. Price Range?
Repeatability and ruggedness would be my first two priorities, the rest is just preference.
If you want to know the most popular LEO scope many will tell you the Mark 4's are probably the most common. As far as optimal you need to address what your team wants and needs are. Are you looking for 1/4 MOA or Mil adjustments? Front focal or Second. Price Range?
Repeatability and ruggedness would be my first two priorities, the rest is just preference.
Re: Optimal LEO Scope
I'd employ a SFP NF 3.5-15x in your choice of matching reticles and turrets.
I prefer FFP optics and as such use a mil-based S&B PMII on my primary rifle, but my wants/needs are much different than that of a law enforcement sniper.
I'd employ a SFP NF 3.5-15x in your choice of matching reticles and turrets.
I prefer FFP optics and as such use a mil-based S&B PMII on my primary rifle, but my wants/needs are much different than that of a law enforcement sniper.
Re: Optimal LEO Scope
We just purchased several Mark 4's TMR reticle. They turned out nice and are great for the price.
We just purchased several Mark 4's TMR reticle. They turned out nice and are great for the price.
Re: Optimal LEO Scope
we went through the same evolution at my agency last year. we had the mark 4's and upgraded to nightforce nxs. i say upgrade because everyone loved the new nf nxs and most of the guys bought them for their personal weapons. that being said your budget and tactical requirements are going to effect your agencies decision. but i have to say that i used schmidt and bender while in the marines and i like nf better, i feel it fits me better and the zero stop and high speed turrets make things so much easier. i guess it's all shooter preference but i have never seen a scope bring out more potential/results in a weapon and in a shooter no matter if it's long range tactical applications, on the range or hunting. thats all i really have for you, good luck with everything.
we went through the same evolution at my agency last year. we had the mark 4's and upgraded to nightforce nxs. i say upgrade because everyone loved the new nf nxs and most of the guys bought them for their personal weapons. that being said your budget and tactical requirements are going to effect your agencies decision. but i have to say that i used schmidt and bender while in the marines and i like nf better, i feel it fits me better and the zero stop and high speed turrets make things so much easier. i guess it's all shooter preference but i have never seen a scope bring out more potential/results in a weapon and in a shooter no matter if it's long range tactical applications, on the range or hunting. thats all i really have for you, good luck with everything.
Re: Optimal LEO Scope
Echo Tip, M40 and Taseal:
Requirements will dictate your choice.
Most LE engagements are <100 yds. But get into a rural environment, where seemingly everyone has a deer rifle and knows how to use it... and you may be looking for more magnification thus more standoff range. Look at your agency's expected scenarios to decide on needs for magnification and features.
More magnification is not necessarily better for LE... You likely want something you can dial down to 3x or even lower.
As far as brand, as a couple of folks have said, Mk4's are probably the most popular. We run Mil/Mil SN-3 USO's now, but previously had Mk-4 LR/T. Ours have illum reticles. If your budget allows it, the best scopes will never disappoint. We have LRF's as part of our kit, but love the FFP feature and we do practice ranging.
Whatever you get, run it through tracking and milling drills to confirm it's calibrated right.
And buy good mounts!
We went through all the decision-making over the last 24 months, so if you want to PM me, I'd be glad to talk w. you.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Echo Tip, M40 and Taseal:
Requirements will dictate your choice.
Most LE engagements are <100 yds. But get into a rural environment, where seemingly everyone has a deer rifle and knows how to use it... and you may be looking for more magnification thus more standoff range. Look at your agency's expected scenarios to decide on needs for magnification and features.
More magnification is not necessarily better for LE... You likely want something you can dial down to 3x or even lower.
As far as brand, as a couple of folks have said, Mk4's are probably the most popular. We run Mil/Mil SN-3 USO's now, but previously had Mk-4 LR/T. Ours have illum reticles. If your budget allows it, the best scopes will never disappoint. We have LRF's as part of our kit, but love the FFP feature and we do practice ranging.
Whatever you get, run it through tracking and milling drills to confirm it's calibrated right.
And buy good mounts!
We went through all the decision-making over the last 24 months, so if you want to PM me, I'd be glad to talk w. you.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Re: Optimal LEO Scope
I'd suggest a nightforce F1 with MLR and Mil turrets. I can see actual call outs needing fairly low power with a ret thick enough to be easy to see at lower mag. The MLR and f1 do this well and they are able to focus at very short ranges at lower mag (another key feature). 15x mag on the top end could also come in useful and the overall scope is not large and does not weigh alot. I believe it is what my local PD uses on their issued rifles. The only complaint I would have is non field adjustable illumination intensity-- it's either on or off but can be adjustable by removing the knob and turning a small screw.
I'd suggest a nightforce F1 with MLR and Mil turrets. I can see actual call outs needing fairly low power with a ret thick enough to be easy to see at lower mag. The MLR and f1 do this well and they are able to focus at very short ranges at lower mag (another key feature). 15x mag on the top end could also come in useful and the overall scope is not large and does not weigh alot. I believe it is what my local PD uses on their issued rifles. The only complaint I would have is non field adjustable illumination intensity-- it's either on or off but can be adjustable by removing the knob and turning a small screw.
Re: Optimal LEO Scope
What type of environment were your last 20 call outs in?
Aside from a team AAR (after action review), did you do a designated marksman AAR?
What were the common factors of the last 20 call outs?
What do you anticipate being most likely in the next 20 call outs?
Weather, distance, lighting conditions, terrain, etc.
In doing a realistic assessment, you can probably better determine what your realistic needs are.
What "the other guys" are using in east coast suburbia is not likely going to be relevant to a team from Elko Nevada.
Realistic AARs, honest assessments, disecting strengths and weaknesses of a DDM or sniper team (without emotion or pointing fingers) will allow you to modify your gear or TTPs as situational needs dictate.
What type of environment were your last 20 call outs in?
Aside from a team AAR (after action review), did you do a designated marksman AAR?
What were the common factors of the last 20 call outs?
What do you anticipate being most likely in the next 20 call outs?
Weather, distance, lighting conditions, terrain, etc.
In doing a realistic assessment, you can probably better determine what your realistic needs are.
What "the other guys" are using in east coast suburbia is not likely going to be relevant to a team from Elko Nevada.
Realistic AARs, honest assessments, disecting strengths and weaknesses of a DDM or sniper team (without emotion or pointing fingers) will allow you to modify your gear or TTPs as situational needs dictate.
Re: Optimal LEO Scope
We have old mark 4's. They do good enough but on my personal rifle I have an IOR FFP. I would much rather have a FFP scope on my rifle especially if you wanted to shoot using your mils. Also I would like to have an illuminated reticle. I just got back from a sniper school and every peroson there had leupolds. Either mark 4 or vx-III's
We have old mark 4's. They do good enough but on my personal rifle I have an IOR FFP. I would much rather have a FFP scope on my rifle especially if you wanted to shoot using your mils. Also I would like to have an illuminated reticle. I just got back from a sniper school and every peroson there had leupolds. Either mark 4 or vx-III's
Re: Optimal LEO Scope
A lot of depends on what you intend to use it for, I’ve only used schmidt and bender and leupold however there no glass like German glass plus box testing on the schmidt’s is outstanding however my mark 4 3.5x10 with tmr does what I need to do out 800 meters, Leopold’s have decent glass and decent reliability when box test, plus there about 1500 less than a schmidt and bender, also I don’t have much exposure to the other scopes out there just what I read
A lot of depends on what you intend to use it for, I’ve only used schmidt and bender and leupold however there no glass like German glass plus box testing on the schmidt’s is outstanding however my mark 4 3.5x10 with tmr does what I need to do out 800 meters, Leopold’s have decent glass and decent reliability when box test, plus there about 1500 less than a schmidt and bender, also I don’t have much exposure to the other scopes out there just what I read
Re: Optimal LEO Scope
Thanks Guys, appreciate the good information and confirmation on what we were thinking. Money is always an issue, it's good to backup a request with knowledge from experienced shooters.
Thanks Guys, appreciate the good information and confirmation on what we were thinking. Money is always an issue, it's good to backup a request with knowledge from experienced shooters.
Re: Optimal LEO Scope
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And buy good mounts!
Sirhr </div></div>
Agreed, If you don't have quality mounts and rings, new scopes are worthless.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And buy good mounts!
Sirhr </div></div>
Agreed, If you don't have quality mounts and rings, new scopes are worthless.
Re: Optimal LEO Scope
When looking for a new sniper rifle optic, I think it's of paramount importance to make as informed of a decision as possible. This means looking at all the options available and doing the research on all of the options. Then, using that information to buy the best optic you can that meets as many of your needs as possible within the allotted budget.
I don't think a lot of agencies are doing this correctly. My agency is a good example. We had Vari-X IIIs for a long time. They finally got the go-ahead to replace them two years ago. Of the 6 snipers, only 1 is somewhat knowledgeable about scopes. The other 5 are not. The powers that be also don't know much about optics. So, they went with what they knew and decided that they were going to get Mark4s. They didn't do any research, they didn't bother consulting with the armorers, they didn't even see if anyone might have other suggestions from personal experience. The Mark4s are decent scopes, but they wound up being a compromise instead of a perfect fit.
Our SERT team is county-wide, and we are on the edge of a metropolitan area where part of the county is suburban, and the other part is wide-open farmland. Our callouts have been about 80% suburban neighborhood residential, but we do get some out in the county. We had a recent one where we assisted the BATFE on a major search warrant on a farm for a guy making explosives and selling them. Our sniper teams were several hundred yards off surveilling the property for several hours prior to the raid.
The one guy with the 3.5-10x40 LR/T is unhappy because 10x is not enough for a top end for the county callouts, and the other snipers with the 4.5-14x50 LR/Ts are unhappy because the 3.5x is better than the 4.5x for FOV on close suburban targets. I showed one of them the specs on a NF NXS 3.5-15x50 SFP MOA/MLR w/ zero stops, and then explained optical quality and the same rugged military trials and field use (and abuse), and his response was something like "why the hell didn't we get that scope?"
It was because nobody bothered to do the research to find a scope that better suited their needs. It's good that you're doing the research, and I think it's truly the most responsible thing to do. So kudos.
When looking for a new sniper rifle optic, I think it's of paramount importance to make as informed of a decision as possible. This means looking at all the options available and doing the research on all of the options. Then, using that information to buy the best optic you can that meets as many of your needs as possible within the allotted budget.
I don't think a lot of agencies are doing this correctly. My agency is a good example. We had Vari-X IIIs for a long time. They finally got the go-ahead to replace them two years ago. Of the 6 snipers, only 1 is somewhat knowledgeable about scopes. The other 5 are not. The powers that be also don't know much about optics. So, they went with what they knew and decided that they were going to get Mark4s. They didn't do any research, they didn't bother consulting with the armorers, they didn't even see if anyone might have other suggestions from personal experience. The Mark4s are decent scopes, but they wound up being a compromise instead of a perfect fit.
Our SERT team is county-wide, and we are on the edge of a metropolitan area where part of the county is suburban, and the other part is wide-open farmland. Our callouts have been about 80% suburban neighborhood residential, but we do get some out in the county. We had a recent one where we assisted the BATFE on a major search warrant on a farm for a guy making explosives and selling them. Our sniper teams were several hundred yards off surveilling the property for several hours prior to the raid.
The one guy with the 3.5-10x40 LR/T is unhappy because 10x is not enough for a top end for the county callouts, and the other snipers with the 4.5-14x50 LR/Ts are unhappy because the 3.5x is better than the 4.5x for FOV on close suburban targets. I showed one of them the specs on a NF NXS 3.5-15x50 SFP MOA/MLR w/ zero stops, and then explained optical quality and the same rugged military trials and field use (and abuse), and his response was something like "why the hell didn't we get that scope?"
It was because nobody bothered to do the research to find a scope that better suited their needs. It's good that you're doing the research, and I think it's truly the most responsible thing to do. So kudos.
Re: Optimal LEO Scope
I give another vote the a Nightforce F1, they are more or less indistructable and track perfectly, but if you have to the means to obtain a S&B PM2, I suggest you do it. It's everything the F1 is, with a little clearer glass, and soon the 3-20 model will be available, which should be pretty nice.
I give another vote the a Nightforce F1, they are more or less indistructable and track perfectly, but if you have to the means to obtain a S&B PM2, I suggest you do it. It's everything the F1 is, with a little clearer glass, and soon the 3-20 model will be available, which should be pretty nice.
Re: Optimal LEO Scope
When I went, the majority of the line was populated with NF, a few luepy's, a Nikon andone I could not identify. I was the only shooter with a FFP mil/mil scope.
I was using a Falcon Menace 4-14x, I provided the rifle, acope etc... my department bought the ammo.
I have since upgraded to an IOR 3-18x, which is not everyones cup of tea, but I love it.
There is still a lot of departments that do not understand the benefits of mil/mil or moa/moa. I have been told that the adjustments on a mil/mil scope are not fine enough as opposed to 1/4" clicks and get a dumb look when I speak of FFP.
It really comes down to budget and personal preference. There is nothing wrong with a good SFP scope, the problem is getting one with matching reticle/adjustments. Once you find a high quality SFP scope with matching reticle/turrets you are in the same ballpark as a FFP scope.
I would recommend a low power of 3 to 4 with a top end of at least 12 but preferably 14 or 15. If the Weaver 3-15 or PST 4-16x prove to be durable, i think that they would be high on my list if overall cost of the system was a factor. The Bushnell 3-12 would also be worth looking at.
When I went, the majority of the line was populated with NF, a few luepy's, a Nikon andone I could not identify. I was the only shooter with a FFP mil/mil scope.
I was using a Falcon Menace 4-14x, I provided the rifle, acope etc... my department bought the ammo.
I have since upgraded to an IOR 3-18x, which is not everyones cup of tea, but I love it.
There is still a lot of departments that do not understand the benefits of mil/mil or moa/moa. I have been told that the adjustments on a mil/mil scope are not fine enough as opposed to 1/4" clicks and get a dumb look when I speak of FFP.
It really comes down to budget and personal preference. There is nothing wrong with a good SFP scope, the problem is getting one with matching reticle/adjustments. Once you find a high quality SFP scope with matching reticle/turrets you are in the same ballpark as a FFP scope.
I would recommend a low power of 3 to 4 with a top end of at least 12 but preferably 14 or 15. If the Weaver 3-15 or PST 4-16x prove to be durable, i think that they would be high on my list if overall cost of the system was a factor. The Bushnell 3-12 would also be worth looking at.
Re: Optimal LEO Scope
My issued rifle has a Leupold Mk 4 3.5-10X40 on top. It's a decent optic, but, having shot through a few, the Nightforce is a lot more glass for a little more money IMO. From a pure shooting aspect, the 10x will get you to 1000 yards on a man-size target if you do your part. However the 15x will give you a greater advantage in observation and target ID in many circumstances.
My personal experience has been that the Leupold doesn't have great light gathering ability with the 40mm objective, which is not necessarily a good thing given the fact that most of our deployments are going to involve less than optimal lighting situations. Our last callout was a warrant service that was done right at day-break. I had to back all the way off to 3.5x to be able to see much of anything without it being too dark, which sacrificed my ability to see into the target room where we believed the suspect was at.
Basically, if the Leupold is what fits the budget, there is nothing wrong with it and it will get the job done, but if you can make it happen, the Nightforce will get the job done a little better.
My issued rifle has a Leupold Mk 4 3.5-10X40 on top. It's a decent optic, but, having shot through a few, the Nightforce is a lot more glass for a little more money IMO. From a pure shooting aspect, the 10x will get you to 1000 yards on a man-size target if you do your part. However the 15x will give you a greater advantage in observation and target ID in many circumstances.
My personal experience has been that the Leupold doesn't have great light gathering ability with the 40mm objective, which is not necessarily a good thing given the fact that most of our deployments are going to involve less than optimal lighting situations. Our last callout was a warrant service that was done right at day-break. I had to back all the way off to 3.5x to be able to see much of anything without it being too dark, which sacrificed my ability to see into the target room where we believed the suspect was at.
Basically, if the Leupold is what fits the budget, there is nothing wrong with it and it will get the job done, but if you can make it happen, the Nightforce will get the job done a little better.
Re: Optimal LEO Scope
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USACS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When looking for a new sniper rifle optic, I think it's of paramount importance to make as informed of a decision as possible. This means looking at all the options available and doing the research on all of the options. Then, using that information to buy the best optic you can that meets as many of your needs as possible within the allotted budget.
I don't think a lot of agencies are doing this correctly. My agency is a good example. We had Vari-X IIIs for a long time. They finally got the go-ahead to replace them two years ago. Of the 6 snipers, only 1 is somewhat knowledgeable about scopes. The other 5 are not. The powers that be also don't know much about optics. So, they went with what they knew and decided that they were going to get Mark4s. They didn't do any research, they didn't bother consulting with the armorers, they didn't even see if anyone might have other suggestions from personal experience. The Mark4s are decent scopes, but they wound up being a compromise instead of a perfect fit.
Our SERT team is county-wide, and we are on the edge of a metropolitan area where part of the county is suburban, and the other part is wide-open farmland. Our callouts have been about 80% suburban neighborhood residential, but we do get some out in the county. We had a recent one where we assisted the BATFE on a major search warrant on a farm for a guy making explosives and selling them. Our sniper teams were several hundred yards off surveilling the property for several hours prior to the raid.
The one guy with the 3.5-10x40 LR/T is unhappy because 10x is not enough for a top end for the county callouts, and the other snipers with the 4.5-14x50 LR/Ts are unhappy because the 3.5x is better than the 4.5x for FOV on close suburban targets. I showed one of them the specs on a NF NXS 3.5-15x50 SFP <span style="color: #FF0000">MOA/MLR</span> w/ zero stops, and then explained optical quality and the same rugged military trials and field use (and abuse), and his response was something like "why the hell didn't we get that scope?"
It was because nobody bothered to do the research to find a scope that better suited their needs. It's good that you're doing the research, and I think it's truly the most responsible thing to do. So kudos. </div></div>
This is a well reasoned reply; I too feel that the SFP NF NSX 3.5-15x is an outstanding LEO precision optic. However, why wouldn't you opt for matching mil/mil, such as MRAD with the MLR reticle (or MOA/MOA for that matter)?
I do agree that many LEO's know very little about the equipment they use. When I was a police officer, many officers in my fairly large PD had no idea what handgun they carried other than "Sig" or "S&W", and some didn't even know the manufacturer. I thought that was pretty sad.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USACS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When looking for a new sniper rifle optic, I think it's of paramount importance to make as informed of a decision as possible. This means looking at all the options available and doing the research on all of the options. Then, using that information to buy the best optic you can that meets as many of your needs as possible within the allotted budget.
I don't think a lot of agencies are doing this correctly. My agency is a good example. We had Vari-X IIIs for a long time. They finally got the go-ahead to replace them two years ago. Of the 6 snipers, only 1 is somewhat knowledgeable about scopes. The other 5 are not. The powers that be also don't know much about optics. So, they went with what they knew and decided that they were going to get Mark4s. They didn't do any research, they didn't bother consulting with the armorers, they didn't even see if anyone might have other suggestions from personal experience. The Mark4s are decent scopes, but they wound up being a compromise instead of a perfect fit.
Our SERT team is county-wide, and we are on the edge of a metropolitan area where part of the county is suburban, and the other part is wide-open farmland. Our callouts have been about 80% suburban neighborhood residential, but we do get some out in the county. We had a recent one where we assisted the BATFE on a major search warrant on a farm for a guy making explosives and selling them. Our sniper teams were several hundred yards off surveilling the property for several hours prior to the raid.
The one guy with the 3.5-10x40 LR/T is unhappy because 10x is not enough for a top end for the county callouts, and the other snipers with the 4.5-14x50 LR/Ts are unhappy because the 3.5x is better than the 4.5x for FOV on close suburban targets. I showed one of them the specs on a NF NXS 3.5-15x50 SFP <span style="color: #FF0000">MOA/MLR</span> w/ zero stops, and then explained optical quality and the same rugged military trials and field use (and abuse), and his response was something like "why the hell didn't we get that scope?"
It was because nobody bothered to do the research to find a scope that better suited their needs. It's good that you're doing the research, and I think it's truly the most responsible thing to do. So kudos. </div></div>
This is a well reasoned reply; I too feel that the SFP NF NSX 3.5-15x is an outstanding LEO precision optic. However, why wouldn't you opt for matching mil/mil, such as MRAD with the MLR reticle (or MOA/MOA for that matter)?
I do agree that many LEO's know very little about the equipment they use. When I was a police officer, many officers in my fairly large PD had no idea what handgun they carried other than "Sig" or "S&W", and some didn't even know the manufacturer. I thought that was pretty sad.
