Optimum barrel time: great theory or bunk?

[kthomas]

Why do they accuracy test when making loads for factory ammo?


You skipped the question about diffrent powder charges shooting to a diffrent POI.

Dont you think it's kind of ironic you have come to these conclusions based on your small samples. Vs millions of rounds fired in load development and competition fired by thouasands of people over the decades.

I think some guys have gotten way off in the weeds thinking not being able to decern the difference meaning there isn't one. And ignoring that it could be a resolution problem.

You speak as if there is one monolithic process to success with reloading. But there isn't. Every record setting BR shooter has a different reloading process. They all have their own conclusions on what works and what doesn't. This goes to @Rio Precision Gunwerks point a few posts above yours.

I'm not claiming for a second that I dispositively know what works and what doesn't. As reloaders we are all battling statistical relevance in our own testing procedures. Some people choose to accept that what conclusions we can draw from our sample sizes are extremely limiting, others choose to make more dispositive conclusions. Some recognize the extreme level of limitations we have in our testing (and thus, the limitations of conclusions we can make), and some operate on levels of hubris that's pretty typical of our species.

I've learned that the conclusions that I used to draw from one day of testing: whether it's a velocity "node", a specific bullet seating depth, charge weight per group size or ES/SD, neck tension tests versus precision and ES/SD, etc, may look really conclusive in one day of testing. Then I started to perform the same tests over two days, and the conclusions started to become much less conclusive. Then I started to do testing over multiple days and multiple conditions, and started to see that any so-called "nodes" aren't really nodes - they may have shot the best on any one given day, but over multiple days of shooting those "nodes" just start to disappear.

The only dispositive conclusion I've come to so far is that quality components and reloading gear matters. So does proper and consistent reloading technique. Holding tight tolerances on your reloads makes a MUCH bigger difference than trying to achieve some optimal powder charge.

FGMM has better precision and ES/SD than Hornady because they hold tighter tolerances. Not because they have found some magical powder charge through some black art process like OBT that happens to just magically shoot better in all different barrels and chambers across all different atmospheric conditions.

If anyone thinks the OBT process works (maybe it does), then I would suggest doing this - perform the exact same OBT test across 5 different days. Are the results repeatable? Does one (or maybe a couple) of charge weights show more precision than the others? Is this pattern repeatable across ALL 5 days? Do the best shooting powder charges on the first day continue to be the best shooting powder charges across the next 4 days? Do the worst shooting powder charges on the first day continue to be the worst shooting charges over the next 4 days of testing? If the results are consistent across all 5 days, then you may be on to something. If any of the results from one day are not repeatable on any of the other days, then perhaps it's time to re-examine the utility of such a test and what conclusions you can really draw from it.

 

[Huskydriver]

I stated clearly I was not arguing with Luddites.
My education is my own, and exceeds high school, back before they nerfed college entrance exams.
I take it you “don’t believe” in nodal effects in steel either? As I stated above, your belief or lack thereof is not a requirement of fact. The facts exist. You can research them for yourself or just ignore them, as is the want of so many these days who ignore facts in the face of their “belief”.
Because your pickup won’t run does not invalidate the science behind internal combustion. If you believe it does, that’s your problem.
LoL

First of all: I am the OP. I posted the question, great theory or bunk. You know: The fact of vibrational nodes isnt in question for those with half a brain or the ability to use google.
The question is whether we can predict them given the complexity of the effect, the science, and the math involved. I am using GRT and will be running some tests, but have never used it before. I am getting really tired of idiots. It seems the number of believers in Idiocracy increase every year.
The number of people denying established science is disgusting. I might as well join a flat earth society group to argue with them. I have plotted course and location with a sextant but that matters not to the idiots who “believe” the earth is flat. No amount of science will change their mind. The number of people with similar philosophies is increasing yearly.
Believe stuff or not, I don’t care. I retract the question. Go live under your rock.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214509522002467

 

[kthomas]

I think the OP, @Bbracken667, should perform the exact same OBT test over multiple days, if they are truly curious in the methodology and its usefulness.

If the results are consistent and repeatable over 5 days of testing, perhaps its on to something. If there is any variation in the results from day to day - then there's your answer right there. Can the conclusions made from the first day of testing be made after day 2? 3? 4? 5?

Edit to add:

I recommend this process for anything. Bullet depth test. Neck Tension. Primer seating depth. Annealing settings. Powder charge. Etc. Are the conclusions that you are drawing from one day of testing repeatable over multiple days of testing?

 

[secondofangle2]

As promised. Load development complete. Shots 7 through 12 and done. Brand new barrel with completely different specs compared to my last barrel. How did I do it this quickly? What is my method?

I know that a 390 A tip in a 375 cheytac likes to be pushed around 2900 ft./s with either H50 BMG or reloader 50.

And it likes that no matter how my barrels a waving or a Groovin or a swinging or a pulsing or whatever it’s doing.

 

[kthomas]

^ Magic

 

[secondofangle2]

Should I name my method after myself or some physics principal? Will that make it more convincing lol.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Should I name my method after myself or some physics principal? Will that make it more convincing lol.

My vote is for "Optimal Quantum Entanglement Sinusoidal Wave Charge Method."

Really want to drive home that your education exceeds high school.

 

[supercorndogs]

You speak as if there is one monolithic process to success with reloading. But there isn't. Every record setting BR shooter has a different reloading process. They all have their own conclusions on what works and what doesn't. This goes to @Rio Precision Gunwerks point a few posts above yours.

I'm not claiming for a second that I dispositively know what works and what doesn't. As reloaders we are all battling statistical relevance in our own testing procedures. Some people choose to accept that what conclusions we can draw from our sample sizes are extremely limiting, others choose to make more dispositive conclusions. Some recognize the extreme level of limitations we have in our testing (and thus, the limitations of conclusions we can make), and some operate on levels of hubris that's pretty typical of our species.

I've learned that the conclusions that I used to draw from one day of testing: whether it's a velocity "node", a specific bullet seating depth, charge weight per group size or ES/SD, neck tension tests versus precision and ES/SD, etc, may look really conclusive in one day of testing. Then I started to perform the same tests over two days, and the conclusions started to become much less conclusive. Then I started to do testing over multiple days and multiple conditions, and started to see that any so-called "nodes" aren't really nodes - they may have shot the best on any one given day, but over multiple days of shooting those "nodes" just start to disappear.

The only dispositive conclusion I've come to so far is that quality components and reloading gear matters. So does proper and consistent reloading technique. Holding tight tolerances on your reloads makes a MUCH bigger difference than trying to achieve some optimal powder charge.

FGMM has better precision and ES/SD than Hornady because they hold tighter tolerances. Not because they have found some magical powder charge through some black art process like OBT that happens to just magically shoot better in all different barrels and chambers across all different atmospheric conditions.

If anyone thinks the OBT process works (maybe it does), then I would suggest doing this - perform the exact same OBT test across 5 different days. Are the results repeatable? Does one (or maybe a couple) of charge weights show more precision than the others? Is this pattern repeatable across ALL 5 days? Do the best shooting powder charges on the first day continue to be the best shooting powder charges across the next 4 days? Do the worst shooting powder charges on the first day continue to be the worst shooting charges over the next 4 days of testing? If the results are consistent across all 5 days, then you may be on to something. If any of the results from one day are not repeatable on any of the other days, then perhaps it's time to re-examine the utility of such a test and what conclusions you can really draw from it.

Hornady used to run about the same SD as FGMM.

What tolerance do you think they changed? What tolerance does FGMM hold better?

 

[secondofangle2]

I’m going with “Barrel Uniform Logarithmic String theory High Impact Tuning”

The BULSHIT method

 

[kthomas]

Hornady used to run about the same SD as FGMM.

What tolerance do you think they changed? What tolerance does FGMM hold better?

I've never had Hornady ammo that had SD close to FGMM.

SD of FGMM for me has been around 6-7 fps. Hornady is about 20+. Through various years of manufacture and lots.

I would need specific information in order to answer such a specific question, at this point any answer I would give would be pure speculation. If one was to tour both ammunition facilities and obtained detailed insights into the processes and tolerances for each company, the answer would probably be pretty clear to that question.