Rifle Scopes Origin of dots in mil dots
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Re: Origin of dots in mil dots
The dot takes up a certain amount of space,and can be used for finer measurements.The army and marines use a different shape,as does Nightforce. Lightman
The dot takes up a certain amount of space,and can be used for finer measurements.The army and marines use a different shape,as does Nightforce. Lightman
Re: Origin of dots in mil dots
It very much had to do with the way they were made. All reticles used to be of wire. The dots were balls of solder crimped on to the wire. Today's reticles are of the etched glass type and much finer detail can be incorporated via that method.
It very much had to do with the way they were made. All reticles used to be of wire. The dots were balls of solder crimped on to the wire. Today's reticles are of the etched glass type and much finer detail can be incorporated via that method.
Re: Origin of dots in mil dots
I once read a thread on here that gave the history of the mil-dot. I believe if I remember correctly that the French had a hand in the desgin and that it was around WW1. If I can find the thread Ill post it.
I once read a thread on here that gave the history of the mil-dot. I believe if I remember correctly that the French had a hand in the desgin and that it was around WW1. If I can find the thread Ill post it.
Re: Origin of dots in mil dots
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 00bullitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">It very much had to do with the way they were made.</span> All reticles used to be of wire. The dots were balls of solder crimped on to the wire. Today's reticles are of the etched glass type and much finer detail can be incorporated via that method. </div></div>
THAT is the right answer...
That's also why the older USMC mil dot scopes had "footballs" instead of perfectly round dots.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 00bullitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">It very much had to do with the way they were made.</span> All reticles used to be of wire. The dots were balls of solder crimped on to the wire. Today's reticles are of the etched glass type and much finer detail can be incorporated via that method. </div></div>
THAT is the right answer...
That's also why the older USMC mil dot scopes had "footballs" instead of perfectly round dots.
Re: Origin of dots in mil dots
History
The milliradian was first identified in the mid nineteenth Century. Degrees and minutes were the usual units of angular measurement but others were being proposed, with 'grads' (circle/400) under various names having considerable popularity in much of northern Europe, the grad was based on dividing a right angle into 100 units. However, Imperial Russia used a different approach, dividing a circle into equilateral triangles and hence 600 units to a circle.
Around the time of the start of World War I, France was experimenting with the use of milliemes (circle/6400) for use with artillery sights instead of decigrades (circle/4000). The United Kingdom was also trialling them to replace degrees and minutes. They were adopted by France although decigrades also remained in use throughout World War I. Other nations also used decigrades. The United States, which copied many French artillery practices, adopted mils (circle/6400). After the Bolshevik Revolution and the adoption of the metric system of measurement (e.g. artillery replaced 'units of base' with metres) the Red Army expanded the 600 unit circle into a 6000 mil one, hence the Russian mil has nothing to do with milliradians as its origin.
In the 1950s, NATO adopted metric units of measurement for land and general use. Mils, metres and kilograms became standard, although degrees remained in use for naval and air purposes, reflecting civil practices.
THIS may be the wrong answer but is how it started, should be good for extra credit lol.
History
The milliradian was first identified in the mid nineteenth Century. Degrees and minutes were the usual units of angular measurement but others were being proposed, with 'grads' (circle/400) under various names having considerable popularity in much of northern Europe, the grad was based on dividing a right angle into 100 units. However, Imperial Russia used a different approach, dividing a circle into equilateral triangles and hence 600 units to a circle.
Around the time of the start of World War I, France was experimenting with the use of milliemes (circle/6400) for use with artillery sights instead of decigrades (circle/4000). The United Kingdom was also trialling them to replace degrees and minutes. They were adopted by France although decigrades also remained in use throughout World War I. Other nations also used decigrades. The United States, which copied many French artillery practices, adopted mils (circle/6400). After the Bolshevik Revolution and the adoption of the metric system of measurement (e.g. artillery replaced 'units of base' with metres) the Red Army expanded the 600 unit circle into a 6000 mil one, hence the Russian mil has nothing to do with milliradians as its origin.
In the 1950s, NATO adopted metric units of measurement for land and general use. Mils, metres and kilograms became standard, although degrees remained in use for naval and air purposes, reflecting civil practices.
THIS may be the wrong answer but is how it started, should be good for extra credit lol.
Re: Origin of dots in mil dots
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TiroFijo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's also why the older USMC mil dot scopes had "footballs" instead of perfectly round dots. </div></div>
Actually, the earliest 10X Unertls had round dots. It is my understanding that they were being knocked loose, so the football shape was adopted for its longer and more secure attachment. I've looked through an original, early 1980's Unertl, so believe me they were round at first.
The French may have first used mils radians for measurement in combat, but it was Unertl and the Marine Corps who first used the mil-dot reticle according to the accounts I have read.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TiroFijo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's also why the older USMC mil dot scopes had "footballs" instead of perfectly round dots. </div></div>
Actually, the earliest 10X Unertls had round dots. It is my understanding that they were being knocked loose, so the football shape was adopted for its longer and more secure attachment. I've looked through an original, early 1980's Unertl, so believe me they were round at first.
The French may have first used mils radians for measurement in combat, but it was Unertl and the Marine Corps who first used the mil-dot reticle according to the accounts I have read.
Re: Origin of dots in mil dots
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 10Xview</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The French may have first used mils radians for measurement in combat, but it was Unertl and the Marine Corps who first used the mil-dot reticle according to the accounts I have read. </div></div>
I thought it was surveying equipment that would take that medal.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 10Xview</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The French may have first used mils radians for measurement in combat, but it was Unertl and the Marine Corps who first used the mil-dot reticle according to the accounts I have read. </div></div>
I thought it was surveying equipment that would take that medal.
Re: Origin of dots in mil dots
An etched glass reticle will reflect light more than wire so for tactical purposes the wire was selected.
"Football" shaped dots were due to the method of manufacture. Adhesive was applied to the wires and the surface tension of the liquid caused them to take the shape of "footballs".
See the related patents.
An etched glass reticle will reflect light more than wire so for tactical purposes the wire was selected.
"Football" shaped dots were due to the method of manufacture. Adhesive was applied to the wires and the surface tension of the liquid caused them to take the shape of "footballs".
See the related patents.
Re: Origin of dots in mil dots
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PanaDP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 10Xview</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The French may have first used mils radians for measurement in combat, but it was Unertl and the Marine Corps who first used the mil-dot reticle according to the accounts I have read. </div></div>
I thought it was surveying equipment that would take that medal. </div></div>
Mil hashes have been used for a long time in optics, but I have yet to hear of dots spaced one milliradian apart on cross hairs being used before the Unertl 10X. Not saying they weren't, just that the big news in the early 1980s was about the Marine Corp pioneering the reticle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PanaDP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 10Xview</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The French may have first used mils radians for measurement in combat, but it was Unertl and the Marine Corps who first used the mil-dot reticle according to the accounts I have read. </div></div>
I thought it was surveying equipment that would take that medal. </div></div>
Mil hashes have been used for a long time in optics, but I have yet to hear of dots spaced one milliradian apart on cross hairs being used before the Unertl 10X. Not saying they weren't, just that the big news in the early 1980s was about the Marine Corp pioneering the reticle.
Re: Origin of dots in mil dots
The concept is hardly new. In topography most of the good optical levels and theodolites made in the last 60+ years have true miliradian based reticles to estimate distance. And most of them use etched glass since you don't have the constrains of a wire reticle.
Combined with large graduated rulers you could measure distances with great accuracy at short ranges, and very good estimations beyond. Nowadays laser devises rule, much faster, digital data recording and processing, more accurate.
My Dad has a Wild level made in the late '50s with "diastimometric" or "estadimetric" lines. The optical quality of these old swiss levels/theodolites puts many modern scopes to shame
The concept is hardly new. In topography most of the good optical levels and theodolites made in the last 60+ years have true miliradian based reticles to estimate distance. And most of them use etched glass since you don't have the constrains of a wire reticle.
Combined with large graduated rulers you could measure distances with great accuracy at short ranges, and very good estimations beyond. Nowadays laser devises rule, much faster, digital data recording and processing, more accurate.
My Dad has a Wild level made in the late '50s with "diastimometric" or "estadimetric" lines. The optical quality of these old swiss levels/theodolites puts many modern scopes to shame
Re: Origin of dots in mil dots
Thanks to all for posting the interesting info. I didn't know there were reticles made of wires and dots made of balls of solder.
Thanks to all for posting the interesting info. I didn't know there were reticles made of wires and dots made of balls of solder.
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