Sidearms & Scatterguns Par times.

[Sixfivesavage]

I'm trying to get an accurate, realistic idea of times to use as a standard to measure against for ccw practice. I use a lot of the drills off pistol training but I shoot a fair amount on steel as well while running a timer. My main area of work at the moment is draw and fire one, two or 3 with a mag change as appropriate. I usually only load 2 to 4 rounds per mag to increase mag changes. Steel is an 8" circle at 10 yards. I typically hover around 2 seconds for a draw from apendix and single shot. I'm not satisfied with it and am always working to improve my own times but am curious just how bad I am and what's realistic. A lot of what you find being discussed online is done either closer, a much bigger target or both.

 

[kl3309]

If I remember it right, my old Dept. quali. 10-yd. stage was 3 rds. to slide-lock, reload, 3 more rds., all in 3 sec., from the (duty) holster.

I'd have you load varying amounts in your different mags, then mix up the order of your mags so you start with a random rd. count in the gun and a random rd. count in your spare mag. That way, you won't get into the mindset of reloading after a known number of rds.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

If I remember it right, my old Dept. quali. 10-yd. stage was 3 rds. to slide-lock, reload, 3 more rds., all in 3 sec., from the (duty) holster.

On a sheet of plywood or what? I need context. Also, I'm only interested in times from concealment.

 

[...]

Accuracy and consistency is FAR more important than speed.

Get your draw, presentation and release down solid so you are ringing that steel 100%.....focus on making it smooth and reliable, and not on speed.....the speed will come with time.

But if you are looking for a benchmark, ~1 seconds draw and fire on an 8" target at 10 yards is what I would expect.

Within 10 yds, you are solidly in point shooting range, I would incorporate that into your training, and with practice, your times should improve

 

[kl3309]

On a sheet of plywood or what? I need context. Also, I'm only interested in times from concealment.

Scored area is ~20" next-shade lighter blue circle (no head shots at 10 yd.):

Those of us that actually gave a shit kept it inside that second graduated center oval, so about 8"x10."

 

[strikeeagle1]

Here are some of the benchmarks for reactive shooting @ the elite Rogers Shooting School.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ycjsvmwj53wnu8n/Bill Rogers Explains Point Shooting.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z9v4igh0776r20c/Bill Rogers Shoots Test 4 2018 copy.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/na7l01kbnkewqh7/Bill Rogers Shoots Test 6 2018 copy.mov?dl=0

 

[502Chevelle]

No way you are going to draw, shoot 3, reload, and shoot 3, in 3 seconds and still be on target.(coming from a uspsa shooter)

 

[Sixfivesavage]

No way you are going to draw, shoot 3, reload, and shoot 3, in 3 seconds and still be on target.(coming from a uspsa shooter)

It seems far fetched to me as well.

 

[Northman623]

Farnam Drill as the standard. Eight meters. 8x10. under ten seconds. Do it and your considered fast in my book.

 

[strikeeagle1]

This too is reactive shooting speed philosophy and teachings; Test #1 at end of video.

Bill Rogers Explains the School.mp4

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[308pirate]

If I remember it right, my old Dept. quali. 10-yd. stage was 3 rds. to slide-lock, reload, 3 more rds., all in 3 sec., from the (duty) holster.

Draw (optimistically) 1 sec. (from a duty holster? LOL)
Two splits of .20 sec each
1 sec reload
Two more .20 splits

2.8 seconds

At 10 yards

Many (most) USPSA Grand Masters would hard pressed to do that consistently. Or even at all.

You have to have mis-remembered.

 

[308pirate]

I'm trying to get an accurate, realistic idea of times to use as a standard to measure against for ccw practice.

Hard to find a better measure of the narrow skillset you describe than this:

pistol-training.com » F.A.S.T. (Fundamentals, Accuracy, & Speed Test)

pistol-training.com

 

[j-moose32]

@308pirate Glad someone else pointed out that par time being mis- remembered lol

@Sixfivesavage - treat your firearms training just like you would with physically working out. Create your own benchmarks by doing some of the above shooting tests ( FAST, bill drill etc etc) and document your times. Work to improve them with dry fire. Take a combative pistol course with a reputable trainer/company.

A general “standard” that I’ve come across is a sub 2.0 second draw (duty holster) to 7 yard A zone hit, is doing “ok”. Then you work to go faster

 

[kl3309]

You have to have mis-remembered.

More likely than not, yeah. I'll have to check with one of the firearms guys.

 

[Sig Marine]

It’s been a few years since I shot an IDPA qualifier but as I recall anything less than 2 seconds was considered good. This was coming out of the holster and putting 2 to the body and 1 to the head on a silhouette target at 7 yards. I do remember that the really good shooters could do it around 1.5 seconds, or better.

 

[308pirate]

I'm trying to get an accurate, realistic idea of times to use as a standard to measure against for ccw practice. I use a lot of the drills off pistol training but I shoot a fair amount on steel as well while running a timer. My main area of work at the moment is draw and fire one, two or 3 with a mag change as appropriate. I usually only load 2 to 4 rounds per mag to increase mag changes. Steel is an 8" circle at 10 yards. I typically hover around 2 seconds for a draw from apendix and single shot. I'm not satisfied with it and am always working to improve my own times but am curious just how bad I am and what's realistic. A lot of what you find being discussed online is done either closer, a much bigger target or both.

Steel has a big problem when used for handgun training and practice: you learn nothing from your misses.

 

[strikeeagle1]

Any "reactive" target (balloon, potatoe, white plate) where you can instantly see the results of your shot
will improve speed and accuracy. White painted steel is perfect for practice;its been used at the elite Rogers Shooting School for 40 years.
IF someone is shooting at steel , at any range, AND missing, then there is a critical problem(s).
1. slow down until you can hit the desired size target at that range, if not shorten the range until one can consistently do so.
2. learn to shoot at a 1" spot on your targets
3. shoot with both eyes open
4. pull the trigger straight back and "follow thru" with a hold of the trigger all the way, for one-thousand-one
5. see the sights thru out the shot / results
6. proper grip and stance
https://www.dropbox.com/s/157nxfnu021qudj/Bill Rogers Explains School Target System copy.mp4?dl=0

 

[308pirate]

Any "reactive" target (balloon, potatoe, white plate) where you can instantly see the results of your shot
will improve speed and accuracy.

All they do is condition you to look at the target for hit confirmation instead of relying on shot calling.

Your six step process is boomer shit that will make you the slowest shooter around.

Ive seen videos of this Rogers Shooting School............yawn

 

[strikeeagle1]

Ive seen videos of this Rogers Shooting School............yawn

I have been attending every year for the past 16 years. No one is yawning on day one when they are trying to engage
the #1 head plate in less than 1/2 second. Attend, get an Advanced Rating, and get back to us on whether you were able to
yawn during Test#9.

 

[308pirate]

I have been attending every year for the past 16 years.

Then you should have no trouble making GM. Let me know when you do.

 

[308pirate]

No one is yawning on day one when they are trying to engage the #1 head plate in less than 1/2 second.

I know it's an 8 inch plate. How far away is it and where is the pistol when you start?

 

[strikeeagle1]

The # 1 target head is at 7 yards; the link above shows the cycling speed.
Test #1 is body/head @ 7 yards and head-over-the-wall @ 12 yards, 3 shots in 1.5 sec at different distances from extended ready muzzle pointed at the ground in front of target base #1, finger outside the trigger guard is the starting position for the shooter.

The total 9 tests have 125 points; a perfect score has only been accomplished 9 times in 40 years, Bill Rogers has 5 of them, some of the best shooters in the world have the other four, ONCE. Last school I shot a 119.

Test #1: He's not yawning.

Bill Rogers Shoots Test 1 2018 copy.mov

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Signing out of this thread.

 

[308pirate]

The # 1 target head is at 7 yards; the link above shows the cycling speed.
Test #1 is body/head @ 7 yards and head-over-the-wall @ 12 yards, 3 shots in 1.5 sec at different distances from extended ready muzzle pointed at the ground in front of target base #1, finger outside the trigger guard is the starting position for the shooter.

The total 9 tests have 125 points; a perfect score has only been accomplished 9 times in 40 years, Bill Rogers has 5 of them, some of the best shooters in the world have the other four, ONCE. Last school I shot a 119.

Test #1: He's not yawning.

Bill Rogers Shoots Test 1 2018 copy.mov

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Signing out of this thread.

.7 sec for the body/head at 7 yards from low ready and a .5 transition to the 8" plate at 12. That gives like .3 sec to spare.

Got it.

Let me know when you make it to even A class in USPSA.

 

[Randalls]

I often use a metronome when I want to practice speeding up my draw. Any free one online where you can set the rhythm works. I start out with the beep four seconds apart and focus on a smooth perfect draw, grip, presentation, sight alignment, trigger, yada yada, trying to break the shot perfectly in time with the second beep. Its pretty much super slow motion.

After I am nice and smooth and sure my form is near perfect I decrease the rhythm to a beep every 3 seconds and work it. Then I go down to 2 seconds, 1.5, 1, .75, as far as you can go. When I notice my form starting to slack I kick the interval back up to the last level where I was performing well and hammer away at that speed for a while.

I find this helps the fluidity of my movements because without the metronome I found that I tended to go only at two speeds, slow and perfect, or as fast as I think I can manage (which I generally push the boundary on). Bringing the time down slowly and consistently helped me shave my draw time considerably, but it also gives your mind/body an idea of just how fast it needs to move within the time constraints you are given. After ripping .75’s, going back up to 1.25 or 1.5 seconds seems delightfully slow.


As far as times, I try to go from holster to 1st shot at 7-10 yards on 8” target:

IWB Concealed: 1.5 sec
OWB Open Carry: 1.0 sec

 

[aslrookie]

What are you not satisfied with? The time or your accuracy standard? An 8" target at 10 yards is a low standard. The 25yds and in pistol whipping/lead slinging shooting is fun and boosts your ego, but the real work starts at 25yds and extends from there. I do box drills with an elevated heart rate at 12-15yds. An 8" target at that distance can still be hit even if I bitch slap the trigger pulling the gun off axis.

It sounds like to me you need to focus more on fundamentals rather than outright speed. If shrinking the target and increasing your distance makes you nervous...you may have found your clue. The odds of having to make a T-box shot with a pistol at 25yds within a few seconds from a draw may seem far out there for CCW, but training is meant to push you past what is likely to happen so the confidence/skill is there when it should be easy.