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Passion vs payout

Alaskashooter

Lead Slinger
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 4, 2014
112
47
Alaska
Seems like prs is off the rails as far as shooting sports go. If people want to see what passion is go find a 3p small bore match and ask what those guys are going to get if they win. Which would actually make a pretty cool podcast if Frank wanted to grab an Olympic level shooter.
 
It's not as wide spread as it seems. Not to say that it's not out there, because it is. I've witnessed it on a couple of occasions.

We've held a local match the last couple of years with nothing more than a trophy for the top 3. One new shooter gets a cert for a barrel at each match. The finale for the year is going to have prizes but we're trying to determine how to divy up the prizes or how to have competitors walk the table. Is there a better way to do it, I'm sure. We're still growing and evolving.

The sport is going through growing pains. It's more accessible than it's ever been. There will be issues. We as a community just have to start taking a little responsibility for ourselves and start calling out the B.S. That means everyone from the individual shooter all the way up to the MDs at matches. I'm just as guilty as the next guy of the "MYOB" attitude. But if I and on a broader scale we as a community want things to change. We'll need to change that attitude to a certain extent.
 
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Totally addicted to the podcast. I took for granted that all other podcasts were as well produced as yours. I listen to many others, but the EDS is by far the best professional produced. Sound, making points in layman's terms. (Albeit East Coast Slang terms that are new to a Illinois flatlander coyote hunter :) ).
I do have a request. Any chance of taking the dog's collar off during recording? It sometimes sounds like you have exotic dancers rattling their bracelets near the mic! Any T-shirts, hats with the hide logo?
Thank you frank for all that you do!
Sincerely,
John. (kimberyote)
 
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I’m just a guy that likes to shoot rifles and soak up as much knowledge as I can. I’ve never been to a match. In fact, I often just go shoot by myself. I have been contemplating going to a local one here lately, just to check it out and maybe learn something. I probably still will, but listening to all that drama certainly wasn’t an encouragement. 100% agree with all the talking points, still a listener, still recommend to all my friends. Just hope the drama doesn’t continue to be discussed in detail on the podcast.
 
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Totally addicted to the podcast. I took for granted that all other podcasts were as well produced as yours. I listen to many others, but the EDS is by far the best professional produced. Sound, making points in layman's terms. (Albeit East Coast Slang terms that are new to a Illinois flatlander coyote hunter :) ).
I do have a request. Any chance of taking the dog's collar off during recording? It sometimes sounds like you have exotic dancers rattling their bracelets near the mic! Any T-shirts, hats with the hide logo?
Thank you frank for all that you do!
Sincerely,
John. (kimberyote)
Lowlight's dog is a treasure, how dare you ;^)
 
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Seems like prs is off the rails as far as shooting sports go. If people want to see what passion is go find a 3p small bore match and ask what those guys are going to get if they win. Which would actually make a pretty cool podcast if Frank wanted to grab an Olympic level shooter.

The US will pays you if you win olympic medals. 37k for gold. 22k for silver. 15k for bronze.

The NRA does a piss poor job of rewarding competitors. There's still a prize table it's just exceedingly small. They used to do a better job.

And guess what? The NRA shooters get butthurt when the rewards were a randomized raffle. It's just a smaller part of the sport but it's not like NRA shooters are altruistic.
 
@Lowlight

I'll bite and provide a different perspective.

First off match shooting is a big enough hobby and with so many people participating not everyone is going to be happy. I made a post about how ridiculous PRS is.

I shoot it because I like it...but I'll also mercilessly make fun of it. I don't care if it's a better plan but shooting with 2 bipods on your rifle for a stage looks silly and I will mock it. But rifle competition isn't something that has to always be tied to real world applications. The fact is real world applications are pretty boring and mundane; pretty much everything in the real world can be shot from prone or a tripod and only has to be shot once.

I think your podcast has a few assumptions that I don't necessarily agree with. Or if I agree with them it's not a full hearted line in the sand agreement.

You spend a lot of time focusing on how shooters don't really show appreciation for sponsors...have you ever considered the alternative that sponsoring a match doesn't entitle you to appreciation from the shooters.

Because let's be honest here; sponsoring matches and shooters is a form of advertisement. As much as you fault shooters for wanting a Payday...the companies that are sponsoring matches are hoping for one too. Sponsoring matches is part altruistic decision and part capitalism.

How much money do you think Masterpiece Arms has made by rehabilitating it's image from "the company that builds bad Mac 10 clones" to a one stop spot for PRS shooters?

Long range rifle sports have made long range equipment much much more marketable. It's no longer a niche market in part because of how many matches there are now. And part of the reason that $250-$300 match fees are palpable is because I could come away with something that makes it less of a money sink. And there is a core group of shooters that are willing to stomach the entry fees and travel that allows for 50 or so large matches across the country.

People with business sense are not stupid either. They know it's in their best interest to promote matches. Rifle matches are a hell of a marketing tool. Not just in the "Shooter X uses Brand Y" but that for everyone that shoots matches there are 10 guys that want to but won't. And they'll but most of the gear to shoot matches.

Here's an anecdote I overheard this weekend. Tom Fuller was talking about how he partnered with Clifton Reasor to make the Gamechanger bag. Basically Tom recognized that Clifton had created a huge demand that he couldn't satisfy and he had the means to do it. Armageddon Gear sold $100,000 worth of Gamechanger bags right away. They basically produced nothing but Gamechanger bags for a solid month.

I don't really want to have a back and forth. I agree with a lot of what you said but I think the exchange is more complicated than "shooters take from sponsors."
 
I have no idea what you are trying to say and it feels like you are trying to flip the script

What came first, the chicken or the egg, well we all know it was the Rooster.

The model was flawed from the beginning and making excuses is silly. Fixes have been discussed ad nauseam but we all know when we fix something one side will lose and the other side gains, and nobody wants to lose so nothing gets fixed.

I had an MD call me this week, he only had 2 shooters send thank you letters out of 100+ that is my point.

You guys have no concept of advertisement and what the actual value is, the gun industry screws this up royally. If Sniper's Hide was a Golf Side this whole thing would make 25x more money the first day. Plus many companies are donating well over $50,000 some moving closer to $100k to support all these matches. Do you think they get that in return ? Not so much, maybe a few but it does not last. There is a saturation point.

I frankly don't care who agrees with me or to what degree, I have been consistent in my criticism and the subjects of my attention continue to make the same mistakes with no signs of fixing the problems. That is what people call a clue.
 
The US will pays you if you win olympic medals. 37k for gold. 22k for silver. 15k for bronze.

The NRA does a piss poor job of rewarding competitors. There's still a prize table it's just exceedingly small. They used to do a better job.

And guess what? The NRA shooters get butthurt when the rewards were a randomized raffle. It's just a smaller part of the sport but it's not like NRA shooters are altruistic.

Ive never shot for prizes...ever...i knew going into shooting i was never going to "make it rich"...i shoot because i enjoy it and because i want to win....and honestly, i dont know a single NRA shooter that goes into matches with the mindset of winning prizes....if you took away prizes, everyone i know would still continue to shoot.

ive said before, that prizes should be awarded to JR shooters...or in the case of a raffle...give each JR shooter 2 tickets and adults 1 ticket.

lets face it....if you are an adult and competitive in ANY shooting discipline...you dont need the "prizes"....the vast majority of us have rigs exceeding $6K ....we can buy what we need.

but to a JR shooter just getting a start in the sport....a new scope would go a long way in getting them up and running...

we also have to realize that the shooting sports need new shooters......most kids are opting for videogames over actually getting outside....but if kids started winning scopes and nice gear, that would be a good incentive to keep them in the sport.
 
I have no idea what you are trying to say and it feels like you are trying to flip the script

What came first, the chicken or the egg, well we all know it was the Rooster.

The model was flawed from the beginning and making excuses is silly. Fixes have been discussed ad nauseam but we all know when we fix something one side will lose and the other side gains, and nobody wants to lose so nothing gets fixed.

I had an MD call me this week, he only had 2 shooters send thank you letters out of 100+ that is my point.

You guys have no concept of advertisement and what the actual value is, the gun industry screws this up royally. If Sniper's Hide was a Golf Side this whole thing would make 25x more money the first day. Plus many companies are donating well over $50,000 some moving closer to $100k to support all these matches. Do you think they get that in return ? Not so much, maybe a few but it does not last. There is a saturation point.

I frankly don't care who agrees with me or to what degree, I have been consistent in my criticism and the subjects of my attention continue to make the same mistakes with no signs of fixing the problems. That is what people call a clue.

The point is simply that the popularization off match shooting helps guys justify massively expensive equipment. Prize tables help drive up match attendence. More match attendence means that others create matches to get a piece of the pie. Maybe match shooting wouldn't have became as popular without industry support.

Anyways not going to get into a back and forth on the forum. I could put my point in to words using my voice so if we run into each other next month we might talk about it. It's not a big deal to me because I'll still shoot the matches I can even without prize tables.
 
The US will pays you if you win olympic medals. 37k for gold. 22k for silver. 15k for bronze.

The NRA does a piss poor job of rewarding competitors. There's still a prize table it's just exceedingly small. They used to do a better job.

And guess what? The NRA shooters get butthurt when the rewards were a randomized raffle. It's just a smaller part of the sport but it's not like NRA shooters are altruistic.
The IRS also takes 40% of that payout back.
 
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I’m not a PRS guy but I agree the series is broken when it comes to governance and oversight. I like expensive rifles because I like quality gear. I only compete against myself.
 
Great Podcast, really enjoyed this one and as a relatively new PRS shooter, I could not agree more with the Passion vs Payout observations
 
Matches have become contrived in a lot of ways, the stages are getting stupider, doing the same thing over and over, to the point of, manipulating the intended COF so they never have to go outside their comfort zone.

Why not just give everyone a tripod and say, This stage is a Tripod Standing Event, this one a Kneeling Event, and then drop in a sprinkling of prone to round it out. The obstacles have become nothing more than front rests anyway, and if you can bypass the obstacle by claiming it's Innovative to shoot it from a High Prone vs the intended way, what is the point. Perception is Reality, if someone perceives you as gaming or cheating you are, regardless of how you spin it. If one person at an event feels he was unaware of his ability to game a stage to degree someone else might, it's wrong.

The issue is, Guys looked at what we did at Rifles Only with the SH Events, the Cup and Shooter's Bash. We had GIANT prize tables where everyone scored a prize or series of prizes. Before leaving Rifles Only in 2011 our tables exceeded $200,000 in prizes with less than 100 shooters. We set the bar, we filled the matches in minutes, which to those on the outside looking in, was something to copy and worth trying to replicate.

Fast forward to today with too many matches, everyone with their hands out from Shooters, to MD to Series, and that $200,000 prize table is now worth $50,000 and you have twice as many people attending the match. They never accounted for growth, only how to get theirs before the music stopped playing. The fact they charged you to be a member before they had a product should have been a clue, but everyone wanted that card.

The spin is really quite funny to me, how they are "Thinking outside the box because they just did the same thing again really makes me laugh. Hell, some matches are so lazy they do the same damn stages twice and just adjust the time limit. You have two whole choices, Game Changer Bag or Tripod there is really nothing in-between.

We always tried to think of new stages and new ways to test the shooters. In fact, it was part of what drove me away from RO as it was getting stale in my opinion and I was being a bit too vocal about not doing it the same way every time. I was sick of the Helicopter stages, took too long and you can shoot 3 different stages in the same amount of time.

The idea that prizes are a participation is comical, yes they are, but front-loading the prizes to the top shooters is silly also. Yes, they absolutely are a participation trophy, that is what the Sponsors want it helps them spread the love. There is no point front-loading a prize table because the majority of the top guys are sponsored already. If your sponsor cannot or does not pay your way to these matches and you feel you have enough clout and value-added supported to rate the better prizes, maybe try renegotiating with those sponsors to up their contribution. If they cannot afford you, how can they afford 50 + matches a year? Pretty simple really.

I get loving the sport and wanting to shoot more, but if that means a lot more travel and a lot bigger expensive, re-think your match schedule. Stand up a better class of local event to meet your standards and improve the class of shooter who will eventually move forward and follow a rational path. Think local before you think national as national costs a ton. We invest in our local match, we promote it and help guide it so it builds new shooters vs subtracting from the pool.

We started this thing whether you want to admit it or not, the fact we constantly tell people they are fucking it up and don't understand what the hell they are doing is a function of experience. It can be done better, but not if you are in it for yourself first, the prizes second and the notoriety third. It's funny with all this talk about the matches, and my phone blowing up every day because of it, the same names keep popping up as how not to do it, and those same names are the top guys. Clue right there, again. The MD see it and they don't like it, nor do they like getting blamed for poorly worded COFs, even when we all know what they meant.
 
The US will pays you if you win olympic medals. 37k for gold. 22k for silver. 15k for bronze.

The NRA does a piss poor job of rewarding competitors. There's still a prize table it's just exceedingly small. They used to do a better job.

And guess what? The NRA shooters get butthurt when the rewards were a randomized raffle. It's just a smaller part of the sport but it's not like NRA shooters are altruistic.
The US will pays you if you win olympic medals. 37k for gold. 22k for silver. 15k for bronze.

The NRA does a piss poor job of rewarding competitors. There's still a prize table it's just exceedingly small. They used to do a better job.

And guess what? The NRA shooters get butthurt when the rewards were a randomized raffle. It's just a smaller part of the sport but it's not like NRA shooters are altruistic.[/QUOTE
Ya I’m well aware of what the pay out is for an Olympic medal, 37k for a gold, train for the last four years for 37k? Gtfoh. Best case scenario they qualify and win prone, 3p, and air rifle? It’s not like these guys train once a week and work a day job. It’s why a majority of Olympic shooters go the AMU. As for the NRA randomizing the prize, that is largely for legal reasons. And if people are getting butthurt that they didn’t get a check with their medal, good, don’t come back. More room on the line to accommodate shooters that actually enjoy shooting.
 
I hear Frank talk about doing prs like nascar a lot. Penalty points, sponsorship, etc. something that is missing though to make that possible is spectators. NASCAR/Golf/NFL/UFC all have one thing in common, people pay money to watch it happen. Personally I think golf is the most boring thing to watch other than maybe curling, but there are enough viewers out there that make it worthwhile for Taylormade to want woods to be swinging their clubs so that all the people watching at home go “oh man that’s what I need” (forgive me if Tiger Woods doesn’t use that brand). Get outdoor channel out there, get espn 2 out there. Make a pro league, take it to the level where there are millions of viewers. It’s a higher work load but if they want to treat it like a “pro sport” then they need to do pro sport stuff. And by they I mean the organization known as prs, after they get their ducks in a row then the competitors either get in line and play by rules set or find a new game to play.
 
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That is a huge part of it, the eyeballs ...

I wasn't gonna go there because it is too easy to see, and frankly I hate telling them how to fix it anymore because they are too thick-headed. But viewers matter. The small pond they are all shooting in regardless of how big it grows within that pond is part of the problem. They have no reach and the individual "PROS" have even less reach.

We have a huge reach compared, and why we have advertisers others might not have. These guys think the handful of people who follow them is enough to make a difference, they sold their friends, but big picture wise it's a drop in the bucket.

Remember FB only gives you access to 10% of your likes, that stream is artificially reduced on purpose to force you to pay to reach everyone in your feed. If you want to crow about your 5000 FB friends, you have to also realize you are only reaching out to a random 10% of those names. Hardly worth paying for when you consider what the industry is after.

Barely any TV, limited social media reach, and a heavy perception that 10%+ of the shooters are fucked up, well here is your problem in a nutshell.

Let's look at Global Alexa Rankings

Th Precision Rifle Series
Screen Shot 2018-08-15 at 10.39.32 AM.png


Down by a HUGE amount

As compared to Sniper's Hide

Screen Shot 2018-08-15 at 10.40.03 AM.png


Gee not only growing, but mature,

Eyeballs matter, one day some of these guys will understand this fact.
 
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Only one pot of money here to fight over... the money that comes from the ground level shooter that buys gear, pays match fees, and pays for training. There’s no significant outside funds here, and I don’t think there ever will be.

Whether you’re a sponsor or a match director or make money selling eyeballs or you’re a top shooter taking stuff off a prize table, all of that was funded by the average joe who just wants to shoot. Follow the path of that money and it’s almost all about selling product to them. Everything revolves around doing that.
 
The IRS also takes 40% of that payout back.

Till you are a "pro" and claim all of your ammo, match fees, rifles, etc as expenses. My guess is pro's last year that were winning $5k checks and even bigger payouts at the finale had to have done this. No way would have let the IRS take 40% of that if they expected me to eat the rest of the cost to get there without fighting for it.
 
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Till you are a "pro" and claim all of your ammo, match fees, rifles, etc as expenses. My guess is pro's last year that were winning $5k checks and even bigger payouts at the finale had to have done this. No way would have let the IRS take 40% of that if they expected me to eat the rest of the cost to get there without fighting for it.
The percentage is based on the payout.
 
The percentage is based on the payout.

Don't you just receive a 1099-misc or do they withhold taxes before they send you a check? I'm assuming it's the PRS entity itself writing the payout checks for stuff like the finale...
 
To claim all that and not have a business or career in the industry would probably get capped under the hobby rules. Those rules can be somewhat useful.

Now if you own a small business serving us nice people with ammo components or rear bags, every last cent and mile would be an appropriate business expense and one could achieve a 0% or less effective tax rate that way. A well counseled business person not taking home much of the revenue for themselves could get a refund from the IRS for doing PRS. You can lose money for like almost three years before they say you don't have a profit motive and that can be negotiated as well...

Anyone ever ask you to get rid of coyotes on their ranch? Report the income as such, buy a rifle, wipe out the tax burden while blasting away some expensive ammo. If the rifle or ammo is too expensive, well the IRS will give you back some of the taxes withheld from your salary job to help you out in your pursuit of profits.

Just sayin
 
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