Gunsmithing Path to fruition for new product ideas.
- Thread starter 2aBaC̶a̶
- Start date
Hi,
3D programs such as solidworks to draw and design.
Then find prototype machine shop to make your design into a proof of concept.
Then decide if the cost for production is feasible for resale.
Then setup and form the legal entity to conduct business under.
Sincerely,
Theis
3D programs such as solidworks to draw and design.
Then find prototype machine shop to make your design into a proof of concept.
Then decide if the cost for production is feasible for resale.
Then setup and form the legal entity to conduct business under.
Sincerely,
Theis
I wanted to get a narrow-width red dot (Holosun 507K) for my P2000 pistol. The existing mounting options sucked, and the slide wasn’t machineable due to weight saving cutouts and such right where I’d need to machine.
So, took some measurements (~1 hour), designed a prototype (I used Onshape, ~4 hours), had it printed (1 week, $50), test-fit (~2 hours), made some modifications (~6 hours), had one made (1mo, $700), and now it works.
Ultimately in order to make a profit at a “typical” price point for this sort of thing, I’d need to get a batch of about 100 of each of the 2 pieces (~2 months, $20000), and I’ve gotten one nibble in the last couple months about it. There have been a few tens of posts in forums about P2000 red dot mounting in the last 2 decades. Regardless of how technically perfect the solution is, if there’s no demand and high cost, it’s just not practical.
@samb300 has had a much longer (and much better documented) design cycle for the AI competition chassis; it’s worth reading through their posts in that thread.
So, took some measurements (~1 hour), designed a prototype (I used Onshape, ~4 hours), had it printed (1 week, $50), test-fit (~2 hours), made some modifications (~6 hours), had one made (1mo, $700), and now it works.
Ultimately in order to make a profit at a “typical” price point for this sort of thing, I’d need to get a batch of about 100 of each of the 2 pieces (~2 months, $20000), and I’ve gotten one nibble in the last couple months about it. There have been a few tens of posts in forums about P2000 red dot mounting in the last 2 decades. Regardless of how technically perfect the solution is, if there’s no demand and high cost, it’s just not practical.
@samb300 has had a much longer (and much better documented) design cycle for the AI competition chassis; it’s worth reading through their posts in that thread.
Do what Theis mentioned above but I would personally add a step involving a good 3D printer between his #1 suggestion and #2 suggestion. Once you get your model like you want in CAD, you can save it as an STL file and export it to Slicing software to generate the Gcode your printer will need to form the model.
Being able to print a high resolution part or piece of a part that you can actually fit other live parts to or check fit with a real host assembly is quite valuable, at least for me. I have had things to my liking in CAD up to and including assemblies then catch something upon evaluation of a printed sample.
Way (like a bunch) cheaper to catch a fuckup or miscalculation with a printed model compared to emailing your CAD file to a machine shop and realizing your booboo after live parts are delivered.
If you don't want to mess with 3D printer purchase and running, there are several on-line businesses that you can email the STL file to and have them print PLA or SLA in your choice of resolution. This would be a good route if you are just doing one project with limited parts. If more projects and/or more parts, your own printer will pay for itself quickly.
./
Everything Terry said here. For my project, I could do 14 printed prototypes for the same amount of money as one machined set, and I caught some non-ideal geometry issues to work out when I put it together with said prototype.
Disclaimer, I am not a lawyer.
Honestly, I would start at patents; admittedly this is self-selection so take it with a grain of salt. For myself, I look at the broadest, most wide-sweeping patents I can that pertain to my idea. If I can easily equate my idea to some prior art I move back a couple steps in my design to adjust or further differentiate my idea from prior art.
If I feel (not as a lawyer) that my idea still has free-standing merit, I would then retain a patent lawyer. Patent law is BS and ruling can often result based simply on which party can out last the other in fees and costs.
Ultimately you can have a shit hot product idea but be stymied by patent infringement. And patents hemorrhage money at every turn.
That's where I'd start.
Honestly, I would start at patents; admittedly this is self-selection so take it with a grain of salt. For myself, I look at the broadest, most wide-sweeping patents I can that pertain to my idea. If I can easily equate my idea to some prior art I move back a couple steps in my design to adjust or further differentiate my idea from prior art.
If I feel (not as a lawyer) that my idea still has free-standing merit, I would then retain a patent lawyer. Patent law is BS and ruling can often result based simply on which party can out last the other in fees and costs.
Ultimately you can have a shit hot product idea but be stymied by patent infringement. And patents hemorrhage money at every turn.
That's where I'd start.
move to Mexico and use unregulated cheap labor and try and sell it before the dim socialist try and make it all impossible to ship gun related goods , good luck and best wishes on making it rich . patent office doing a lot of searches to make sure the idea is not already patented It would be a waist of time to make a product that someone else already owns even if its not available on the market .
Last edited:
I think some of it depends on your current skills, and what time and effort you are willing to put into it.
Do you already have design, engineering, manufacturing, machining, business, marketing, etc skills? Or are you starting from square one with an idea in your head or sketched on a napkin?
I think we can all recommend CAD software, 3D printers, machines/machine shops, and maybe even patent lawyers. But I would want a little more info to know what you're thinking about.
In a broad sense, your question has been answered by some really smart guys with way more experience than me. Idea --> design --> prototypes --> research/patent --> business case --> funding --> production --> marketing --> sales
To somewhat piggyback off @samb300; much benefit can be gained by taking a back to front approach to product development.
Ignore patents, design, cost, materials, distro, channels, etc. Ask: "What customer need does my product address that is not addressed by any other product?" "Why does my product not exist in the market?" If I cannot provide solid answers to the first and reasonable answers to the second question, I seriously question the market value of my idea.
Please don't let my comments discourage you; product innovation is one of the most exciting and fulfilling business aspects I've been involved with. Both personally and professionally.
Ignore patents, design, cost, materials, distro, channels, etc. Ask: "What customer need does my product address that is not addressed by any other product?" "Why does my product not exist in the market?" If I cannot provide solid answers to the first and reasonable answers to the second question, I seriously question the market value of my idea.
Please don't let my comments discourage you; product innovation is one of the most exciting and fulfilling business aspects I've been involved with. Both personally and professionally.
What CAD program are you using? I’ve been using Fusion 360, which is free. It’s pretty powerful and exports STL files with no fuss for 3D printing.
Hi,
Or if none of that suits your allowed time commitment, business desires or finances then the other route would be to complete the design and contact companies that already have the manufacturing capabilities, business infrastructure and finances in place to bring the product to fruition. Have your legal team draw up a NDA and submit your idea to them under the discussions of a licensing agreement.
Whatever timeframe you have in mind that you thinking you could have product to the market...x3 that shit, lol
Whatever cost you have in mind that you thinking it would cost you to have product to the market...x3 that shit too.
Sincerely,
Theis
Or if none of that suits your allowed time commitment, business desires or finances then the other route would be to complete the design and contact companies that already have the manufacturing capabilities, business infrastructure and finances in place to bring the product to fruition. Have your legal team draw up a NDA and submit your idea to them under the discussions of a licensing agreement.
Whatever timeframe you have in mind that you thinking you could have product to the market...x3 that shit, lol
Whatever cost you have in mind that you thinking it would cost you to have product to the market...x3 that shit too.
Sincerely,
Theis
Starting from scratch on the 3D printer so just free online programs for that. I think its called TinkerCAD.
As said by a few so far..
The way to make money is stick to what your good at.
Don’t learn the other guys job, pay him for his skill set and get the timeline and schedule in order.
And budget X3...in your dreams X10 more like it lol
The way to make money is stick to what your good at.
Don’t learn the other guys job, pay him for his skill set and get the timeline and schedule in order.
And budget X3...in your dreams X10 more like it lol
Probably the more likely scenario. I have creative and innovative ideas and the skills to make things but no real desire to run a business and do paperwork. Been there done that.
Seems to me though, that patent cost has gone so high now as to be unrealistic for the small business. I've only looked into it superficially, but numbers I was seeing were like $10K-$50K for a patent on some widget I'd want to build, and that doesn't include any costs to defend the patent when someone else copies my idea. Is that inaccurate? At those prices, any potential profit I might realize over the lifetime of a typical gun part widget is vaporized, and there's no point in pursuing it unless I'm either a) a big company with deep pockets or b) making something that is extremely profitable and/or in large quantities.
There are companies that will do patents for small companies for a flat fee in the $4-8k range - though I couldn’t begin to tell you whether any of them are firearms-friendly - and there’s nothing to stop you from submitting a patent you write yourself.
But yes, a good patent - and doing anything with it - is not exactly a cheap undertaking.
Yeah. It seems to me current patent law has priced itself out of reach of the small business, and stifles innovation while being somewhat toothless anyway regarding overseas copies of your product. I've had at least 20 different small money making ideas over the years (I'm a mechanical engineer, and a machinist, so I have the capability to actually get some things made), but with projected profits for any of those things ranging from $1K-$10K over the life of the product, there's just no financial benefit to pursuing a patent. And without the patent, the only thing preventing some other guy from patenting it once I take it to market is the cost.
Hi,
As the old saying goes..A patent is only worth what you have to defend it.
In your examples though; a patent is meaningless for product(s) with those projected lifetime profits and in reality people are not looking to copy those type of products so you would be safe either way.
Product insurance policies cost more a year than that.
Sincerely,
Theis
regarding patents.....i have 2 of them....they are not cheap, i think our last bill from our patent attorney was on the order of $50K.
there are other patents that are cheaper, such as a "design patent"....which doesnt cover the mechanical function of your design, but the aesthetic appearance of it, which honestly in todays firearms market is really all thats changing for the most part. "design patents" can be had for a few thousand.
but like Theis said, if you dont have money to take anyone to court, your patent is useless.
but where to get started......first you need an actual idea.....and an idea that fills a need that no one else is making.
the market is flooded with scope mounts and bipods.....for you to create a design that is going to be worth your effort and money, it has to be something novel, or something radically better than what is on the market.
ive designed lots of parts, most of them havent gone anywhere because while they may be better, they arent significantly better enough to get people to buy them.
assuming you have an idea you think will be marketable....you need to design it.
there are many softwares that you can use for this, Solidworks, Fusion 360, ect.
ive used them all, i recommend Solidworks.......its too pricey to buy on its own.....but if you join the EAA, for $40/yr you can get a version of Solidworks for free.
from there you can design your product, then make a prototype, then make a prototype, then make a prototype, then make a prototype........you are going to go through a hand full of design changes and itterations until you get something that works, and looks decent
just remember, you have to manufacture this....i say this because it is REALLY easy to design parts in 3d that are impossible to manufacture, or are very expensive to manufacture....the difference between a few cuts and fillets can make a $100 part into a $1,000 part.
once you have a product you are happy with, make a bunch of them, give them to friends and family to tests out.....youve just spent the last 8 months designing a product, you know it inside and out.....give it to someone who has no experience with it and theyll find any flaws in it for you.
then once you are double sure you have a product.....you need to figure out how many you need made, post up on forums and social media....find out how much interest you have in it.......get that number in mind then cut it in half......its really easy to get someone to say theyll buy one, its a lot harder to get that money out of their hand.
then you need to figure out if you want to be the person manufacturing/ selling/ shipping.....or if you want someone to handle all that for you.
its not easy, its a pain in the ass, and it ends in failure more often than not....so you need to make sure its something you are passionate about before you get going.
there are other patents that are cheaper, such as a "design patent"....which doesnt cover the mechanical function of your design, but the aesthetic appearance of it, which honestly in todays firearms market is really all thats changing for the most part. "design patents" can be had for a few thousand.
but like Theis said, if you dont have money to take anyone to court, your patent is useless.
but where to get started......first you need an actual idea.....and an idea that fills a need that no one else is making.
the market is flooded with scope mounts and bipods.....for you to create a design that is going to be worth your effort and money, it has to be something novel, or something radically better than what is on the market.
ive designed lots of parts, most of them havent gone anywhere because while they may be better, they arent significantly better enough to get people to buy them.
assuming you have an idea you think will be marketable....you need to design it.
there are many softwares that you can use for this, Solidworks, Fusion 360, ect.
ive used them all, i recommend Solidworks.......its too pricey to buy on its own.....but if you join the EAA, for $40/yr you can get a version of Solidworks for free.
from there you can design your product, then make a prototype, then make a prototype, then make a prototype, then make a prototype........you are going to go through a hand full of design changes and itterations until you get something that works, and looks decent
just remember, you have to manufacture this....i say this because it is REALLY easy to design parts in 3d that are impossible to manufacture, or are very expensive to manufacture....the difference between a few cuts and fillets can make a $100 part into a $1,000 part.
once you have a product you are happy with, make a bunch of them, give them to friends and family to tests out.....youve just spent the last 8 months designing a product, you know it inside and out.....give it to someone who has no experience with it and theyll find any flaws in it for you.
then once you are double sure you have a product.....you need to figure out how many you need made, post up on forums and social media....find out how much interest you have in it.......get that number in mind then cut it in half......its really easy to get someone to say theyll buy one, its a lot harder to get that money out of their hand.
then you need to figure out if you want to be the person manufacturing/ selling/ shipping.....or if you want someone to handle all that for you.
its not easy, its a pain in the ass, and it ends in failure more often than not....so you need to make sure its something you are passionate about before you get going.
If it is worth paying for a patent, someone will copy you. If you don't have the money to get a patent you won't have the money to defend it.
If it truly is a good idea, use NDA and contracts to protect the IP and make a deal with someone who has the money to exploit your idea and take royalties. Use the royalties to pay for your patent on your next great idea.
If it not worth a patent, no one will copy you.
Be competitive, market the product well, and get a return.
Lots of money is made by Kuiu and Sitka and First Lite and there are few if no patents.
Oftentimes, you need a market to sell to and competitors can help make the market you need to sell to.
If it truly is a good idea, use NDA and contracts to protect the IP and make a deal with someone who has the money to exploit your idea and take royalties. Use the royalties to pay for your patent on your next great idea.
If it not worth a patent, no one will copy you.
Be competitive, market the product well, and get a return.
Lots of money is made by Kuiu and Sitka and First Lite and there are few if no patents.
Oftentimes, you need a market to sell to and competitors can help make the market you need to sell to.
I’ll wade in here. I have the machining and printing capabilities and have brought my own products to market. What Theis and others are telling you is true. Having the capability to develop in-house really shortens the time and can be much cheaper, but only if you decide clearly what you want to make and pursue that. And there will be revisions along the way.
Once you get it done then comes the next big expense no one talks about - marketing and sales. And that can take so long that it sucks your soul dry. Or it can be only a matter of months. But you better budget for it BIG TIME. You got to get out there with the product. Then watch people handle it enough to break it, offer advice on how to fix issues you didn’t see, etc.
It takes time but it’s definitely worth it if you can do the work and endure to see it through. I have a wall in my office with two patent applications on it with a couple of other accomplishments that are there to remind me that there are no successes without action and the price that goes with it.
Sounds like you are starting off by using all the available cheaper options that can get you to the next step. That is wise. Good luck!
Once you get it done then comes the next big expense no one talks about - marketing and sales. And that can take so long that it sucks your soul dry. Or it can be only a matter of months. But you better budget for it BIG TIME. You got to get out there with the product. Then watch people handle it enough to break it, offer advice on how to fix issues you didn’t see, etc.
It takes time but it’s definitely worth it if you can do the work and endure to see it through. I have a wall in my office with two patent applications on it with a couple of other accomplishments that are there to remind me that there are no successes without action and the price that goes with it.
Sounds like you are starting off by using all the available cheaper options that can get you to the next step. That is wise. Good luck!
There is a program called the Inventor's Assistance Program, at least here in MN, but I'm pretty sure it's nation wide by now. You need to file a patent application in order to be eligible. Providing you are accepted into the IAP, they pair you with a patent attorney who helps you through the patent process, pro bono. You are still responsible for all the filing fees and patent related fees. It's a great program and I was issued a utility patent in the end. FYI: It took 3 years and a LOT of emails and phone calls back and forth, USPTO denials, 2 different patent attorney's (first one took a job elsewhere), lots of time in the beginning and at the end (and 1 year in the middle of waiting).
Tip: File as a micro-entity - if possible, this will save you big $$$
Be aware that if you discuss, or have discussed / shown your invention to ANYONE (unless they are business partners) more than 1 year ago, it is no longer legally patentable. There is a 1 year deadline to file your patent application which must include all the juicy details of what specifically makes your product different from the prior art.
Patent talk could go on and on, but here is an example of how my reality worked.
In my case, found a distributor to whom I sell wholesale. Had a very large portion of the (niche) market in my particular field for 2-3 years and was contacted by 2 well known companies (multiple times) who wanted to license my product. Great! This is every inventor's dream come true! The sad reality is that they both wanted to have MY product made in communist china for pennies, and my "royalty" would also be pennies
F-That!! I declined both offers, though, I did try to negotiate a deal where my product was Made In the USA - they declined.It's still Made In the USA! Made in MN (by me)
My product was also copied by a knock-off competitor, changed just enough to fall outside my patent, and made in communist china. He watched the patent process and released "his" product the day after my patent was issued
Nothing I can do about it. His whole business is knocking off other products - no original ideas of his own. His products line the store shelves, mine are in my garage and basement.Still sell some product, but the market has been saturated.
Was the patent worth it? Yes, and no. Am I ahead of my investment, yes, but not by a significant amount. Could that money and time have been utilized better by flooding the market with product and reaping the short term rewards - absolutely!
Best of luck in your endeavors!
There is a program called the Inventor's Assistance Program, at least here in MN, but I'm pretty sure it's nation wide by now. You need to file a patent application in order to be eligible. Providing you are accepted into the IAP, they pair you with a patent attorney who helps you through the patent process, pro bono. You are still responsible for all the filing fees and patent related fees. It's a great program and I was issued a utility patent in the end. FYI: It took 3 years and a LOT of emails and phone calls back and forth, USPTO denials, 2 different patent attorney's (first one took a job elsewhere), lots of time in the beginning and at the end (and 1 year in the middle of waiting).
Tip: File as a micro-entity - if possible, this will save you big $$$
Be aware that if you discuss, or have discussed / shown your invention to ANYONE (unless they are business partners) more than 1 year ago, it is no longer legally patentable. There is a 1 year deadline to file your patent application which must include all the juicy details of what specifically makes your product different from the prior art.
Patent talk could go on and on, but here is an example of how my reality worked.
In my case, found a distributor to whom I sell wholesale. Had a very large portion of the (niche) market in my particular field for 2-3 years and was contacted by 2 well known companies (multiple times) who wanted to license my product. Great! This is every inventor's dream come true! The sad reality is that they both wanted to have MY product made in communist china for pennies, and my "royalty" would also be pennies
It's still Made In the USA! Made in MN (by me)
My product was also copied by a knock-off competitor, changed just enough to fall outside my patent, and made in communist china. He watched the patent process and released "his" product the day after my patent was issued
Still sell some product, but the market has been saturated.
Was the patent worth it? Yes, and no. Am I ahead of my investment, yes, but not by a significant amount. Could that money and time have been utilized better by flooding the market with product and reaping the short term rewards - absolutely!
Best of luck in your endeavors!
Wow, thanks for the info, that might be really helpful and I'll look into it.
When you say to file as a micro-entity - is that opposed to as an individual, or opposed to a small business? I'm not quite sure what that means.
I know that used to be the case, but I've heard from several different sources that "prior art" is not treated that way any more. That doesn't make sense to me, but is also not surprising in a way. Perhaps that's incorrect, I don't know.
Didn’t they get rid of that with the change from “first to invent” to “first to file”?
You can absolutely invalidate patents by showing critical stuff was publicly available knowledge, or the entity that filed was subject to an NDA that covered the stuff in question, or...
