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Night Vision Petition for NVision to make the ultimate thermal!

TheHorta

Nest-stirring pot-poker.
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Minuteman
  • Jan 17, 2014
    4,853
    13,334
    NO AL
    Trijicon could, but they won’t, so it falls to you — N-Vision! Given what you have been able to do thusfar, I think you have what it takes to shake-up this world.

    I’m talking about a killer. A high-end, $12-15K thermal that puts you squarely in the same sandbox the big .MIL players own, but incorporates features the others don’t yet have.

    Something the size of a 17-ounce (ish) CRATOS, but functions both as an EPIC clip-on and dedicated TWS. A high-res (SVGA minimum, 960p HD preferred) OLED for higher magnification day optics. An eye-safe IR laser. And, the real party killer, INTERNAL TracIR-like disturbed reticle rangefinding and Applied Ballistics, so no more need for an expensive AB Raptar and funky, hard-to-get cables.

    Two versions — 25mm 1x and 50-60mm 2-3x, **or**, if you really wanna impresse us, come conquer the world with a legit optical 1-3x afocal thermal zoom!

    Let’s dream big here. List it for $14,999. You will shut down all desire for anything else from anyone else.

    C’mon @Max_R be our Knight in Thermal Armor!
     
    I was always told it doesn't hurt to ask, if you have the means to buy it.
    I like all of the design features, except the clip on(don't trust them), maybe add a type of clamp on style scope obj adapter and a zero reticle feature that the Pulsar krypton has, as long as it fit's Horta's approval ?
     
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    I was always told it doesn't hurt to ask, if you have the means to buy it.
    I like all of the design features, except the clip on(don't trust them), maybe add a type of clamp on style scope obj adapter and a zero reticle feature that the Pulsar krypton has, as long as it fit's Horta's approval ?
    To me a clip seems more trustworthy because it should be easy enough to align a screen with some glass straight and epoxy it in place, whereas software (your reticle) is always gonna glitch. I really really trust the adjustments on my day scope and the reticle is laser etched - if I need to execute a lost zero drill, it's easier with a day scope + clip on.
     
    I think what you mentioned into three separate products would be cool

    - a better swr radius that bluetooths that'd be cool too. Doesn't even need to have AB, really, if it bluetooths to an AB device, it can send the device the range, and the device can send back the correction for a on-unit display. the ab on everything is getting kinda ridiculous, what's next, ab in my pistol grip?

    - my ideal thermal unit is personally the UTC. Anything can always be smaller but it's a super tolerable form factor. Maybe a DLOC reap ir style QD instead of the larue. Don't need tracir because...

    - release a little glass hud thing that clips on to your day scope. Ideally, it would be on the ocular end but unless it's super thin (Thinner than an SRO but with hud instead of a red dot? Sounds hard) , you'd probably need optics on it and you would have to move your day scope to have it on or off? Would probably be easier if it was on the objective end. Aspirationally, it would magnet on like the taccomhq medium sized prism thing, i'd tolerate as big as a T1. This way you can turn your favorite nightforce into a hud scope that can be used day or night
     
    Shit, i know i am low brow, but a laser range finder integrated into my halo lr would be a massive game changer. I do not know what it takes to integrate, but i “feel” it cant be that hard. Even stuff like a sig kilo (low buck) has enough power to do most ranging and are like $300 retail. Maybe it costs 3x as much to put it into the software and body, but i would love to know the figures on bow much it truly costs. I would pay 1k or more over the price of a standard halo lr, in a second.
     
    I just want a helmet mounted thermal that can pull clip on duty from time to time. I’d be fine “calibrating” the thermal screen to match my scope reticle, as I wouldn’t be switching it from rifle to rifle for the zero. It would have to cost less than $10,000 too for me to not just buy a SkeetIR-X.
     
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    I would alter horta's specs slightly ... to try to keep the MSRP under $10k ...

    ==
    1 - the unit only has to be a clipon ... doesn't have to be a (good) monocular or a (good) thermal weapons scope ... though adding limited abilities in these two areas could be done with minimal additional cost (more on that later).
    2 - I would ask for minimum objective lens diameter (the germanium part) of 60mm ... this is to ensure we get adequate "information" to the core, even in poor thermal conditions.
    3 - Size and Weight I'm not so picky about ... I would be running a thermal clipon on a rifle off a tripod ... and even my "light" bolt guns are 15 lbs when fully decked out for the field ... these are the Bravo chassis guns. The AIAX chassis guns are around 20 lbs when fully decked out for the field. The UTC/x/xii size is perfect for me. Doesn't have to be cratos size in my book.

    Where I would spend the most in terms of additional cost would be on the rear end.
    Since this will be a clipon, the net magnification needs to be 1x (otherwise our reticles won't work very well for holding)

    So three aspects needed on the backend to make a thermal clipon that beats the commercially available units.

    4 - Collimation.
    The military clipons I've had (or used) have all been "truly collimated" ... meaning, mount and shoot. If the optical center of your day scope is within the collimation tolerance of the clipon ... then your POI shift will be negligible. This is NOT the case for the commercial clipons. They have adjustments and require adjustments. The military clipons do not. The military clipons have rotating prism assembles, which create the collimation tolerance ... and I'd like to see this dream clipon add those prisms. I know some say this is not needed. But I am not yet convinced. I want "mount and shoot" (if within tolerance) ... and for me this is actually my #1 feature that I want for this dream thermal clipon !

    5 - Day scope support for at least 8x.
    While not needed for most night hunting activites, I still want at least 8x on a thermal clipon. I like to shoot steel out to 900yds day and night ... and the thermal clipon can do it with 9x on the day scope for 12 inch steel. So that's my #2 feature in terms of priority. So this requires the combination of the front and rear end lens assemblies to produce the right balance of front end magnification and rear end demagnification to support such day scope magnificaiton requirements. The trade off is FOV .. the FOV of such a "long distance thermal clipon" will be less than a clipon without this requirement. A long distance thermal clipon like the UTC/x/xii are under 7 degrees FOV ... the LWTS-LR might be 9 degrees IIRC. The short distance thermal clipons, which support day scope magnification up in the 4x-6x range ... would have about double this FOV and folks that are strickly using clipons for night hunting my prefer this FOV range. So I would allow two version of this dream clipon. But I'd be buying the LDTC version myself :)

    6 - DIsplay
    One key to making a long distance thermal clipon work, is the display, so we need a high res display back there. At least a 1024 if not a 1280.

    So these three aspects ... the prisms, the balancing on the focal lengths ... and the display will be where a lot of the cost for this particular widget will be, but that's what I would prioritize.


    7 - Integrated LRF/AB/Distrubed reticle.
    Personally I can live without this ...I use external range finders and reference my internal DOPE card (in my brain) for shots out to 500yds. And have more time to consult kestrel for shots > 500yds. But I am not opposed to a more expensive (over $10k) version that adds these features. I'd just like a "bare bones" version with out them.

    ==
    What can we give up to get this ? Well believe it or not, I think we can give up 640. I'll need a second full length article to explain all the details ... but this is a way to save cost ... not just because the array is cheaper ... but because the lenses can be smaller ... THAT's where most of the savings can be. And if you want small ... this is what you want. The front end focal length to array size ratio is a key metric as is the number of pixels in the display. And 320, 336, 384 is viable in a clipon if these values can be optimized. And this can remove cost without degrading PID, that's the bottom line. I'm sure most people will disagree with this. But I need to help educate those folks as I myself had to get educated in this area. I'm working on a post which will explain further !!!



    ==
    How to add ability to use clipon as a TWS ?? Add an optional magnifier for the backend. To "zoom in" on the TV ... like a 3x screw on magnifier. I had one of these for my first Apollo. And I used it as a TWS more than I did as a clipon. So that might add a couple of hundred ... to the price, but it could be an accessory. What this magnifier does is back off" from the inherent optical demagnification on the backend lens. It does not change the FOV.

    And of course, any thermal can be a handheld. Well any thermal we can buy. Just rig up a lanyard for it and wear it around your neck. But I don't want to compromise a good long distance thermal clipon by requiring it to be head mountable. That's a different widget in my book. There I do want to minimize size and weight. But I don't want that for a LDTC because I want to decent sized lens on the front to pull in that information!
     
    ... Totally agree on your #4, #5 and #6. ...

    Curious how you feel about possibility of giving up 640 for both size and cost reasons ... and impact on PID ??
     
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    4 - Collimation.
    The military clipons I've had (or used) have all been "truly collimated" ... meaning, mount and shoot. If the optical center of your day scope is within the collimation tolerance of the clipon ... then your POI shift will be negligible. This is NOT the case for the commercial clipons. They have adjustments and require adjustments. The military clipons do not. The military clipons have rotating prism assembles, which create the collimation tolerance ... and I'd like to see this dream clipon add those prisms. I know some say this is not needed. But I am not yet convinced. I want "mount and shoot" (if within tolerance) ... and for me this is actually my #1 feature that I want for this dream thermal clipon !

    This for me is the one big drawback of consumer clip on's.
    Even at the short ranges I hunt, I've had no repeatable success with clip on's.
    I'm hoping the pulsar krypton will live up to it's promises of an affordable clip on thermal, then other manufacturers will follow suit.
     
    i see all these fancy needs, wants , hopes and dreams but do you actually put the time and work to know what works and doesn't versus what you think would work and what doesn't? shooting dynamic in the dark is much different than static targets. just a thought...
    pile.jpeg
     
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    I don't really care for the tws and clip on modularity because i want a clip on to be nfov, and a tws to be wfov.

    Unless.... magnifiers and some newer designs and whatnot allow some optical magnification and do both
     
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    Curious how you feel about possibility of giving up 640 for both size and cost reasons ...and impact on PID ??

    Personally, I see it from two separate perspectives; technical and business.

    Technical:

    I don't think you'd give up much, assuming all the algorithms are the same between the two cores, and you're running a high def display (though why you would use new algorithms on an older core is beyond me). The algorithms can account for a multitude of sins/shortfalls (note Pulsars "updates" that cleaned up their thermals quite a bit). You'd likely get more smearing with the lower res core, but I doubt it would be much, all things being the same (assuming both had 60hz refresh cycles).

    Business:

    Most of the US vendors have already bought/paid for the latest core technology. From a marketing aspect alone, I'd be hard pressed to believe they would use an inferior core, if they have already paid the license to use the updated one. The fact that the newer cores can use smaller germanium lenses, negates the size difference in the cores (which is still pretty small). I'm not real familiar with the last generation cores, so can't compare the sizes, but the latest cores are fairly small/short (at least looking at the CAD drawings I have, they seem fairly small in comparison to the housing). In addition, as things are updated (faster electronics, more efficient power supplies, smaller antennas, etc.) it just makes no sense (business wise) to engineer a new framework, just to put an old engine in place. No, I'd guess the cost cutting corners are the previously mentioned stuff (display, wifi/streaming, power usage, lenses, ruggedness/shock-vibe) and not the core itself.

    So I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I think the question you pose is one that is inconsequential. The core (while it does drive a large part of the price, I'd guess) really isn't where cost savings would occur on a civilian thermal device (since I would submit that an older core would not sell as well as a newer one, to the civilian community). I could be completely wrong of course, as I am not privy to costing models of civilian manufacturers (nor would I be able to share that if I did), and only have passing familiarity of military costing for military thermals. But I suspect that the real cost is in the updating of everything surrounding the core. The core, is the core (and more specifically, the algorithms that render the picture from the core hardware), so as a business I'd be loathe to try and sell a cheaper core, just to get an only slightly smaller, more limited (niche) product. If I could, I'd be trying to make a product that has as many uses as possible, to make my product line smaller and more efficient, while driving up numbers of sales (economy of scale so-to-speak). It would also limit how much product I had to sit on during slow times.

    <shrug> Like I said, I'm just guessing somewhat; more like a SWAG in reality.

    JMTCW...
     
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    Any weight savings is always a bonus. I don't know how you guys lug around so much gear. I don't know many people who stay in as good of shape as I do, and I have no interest in carrying around even one more oz, either on my body or my gear, than I have to.
     
    Any weight savings is always a bonus. I don't know how you guys lug around so much gear. I don't know many people who stay in as good of shape as I do, and I have no interest in carrying around even one more oz, either on my body or my gear, than I have to.
    I am a lightweight snob, but been manning up lately. Packs and tripods help out a lot.
     
    I am a lightweight snob, but been manning up lately. Packs and tripods help out a lot.
    Not the point. Even with a good pack and a tripod, weight is weight, and it is always a penalty. Sometimes lightness can be a penalty too, but extra weight always is. No matter how strong you are.
     
    New features I just thought of, in order of priority:

    1) I want it to have AI and scream “Great shootin’ Tex!” after every shot, even if it’s a miss.

    2) WiFi so I can browse the Hide from the scope view.

    3) An internal hunting game I can play when there’s nothing around to shoot. Maybe COD too, so I can get my Operator on.

    4) It vibrates and makes helicopter sounds so I can feel like I’m back in ‘Nam (even though I’ve never been to ‘Nam).
     
    AI watching your trace + Machine Learning algorithms + accelerometers to recognize when/how you broke the shot + some more software to help you shoot more gooder would be very interesting.
     
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    AI watching your trace + Machine Learning algorithms + accelerometers to recognize when/how you broke the shot + some more software to help you shoot more gooder would be very interesting.

    Hmmm...on a clip on, it would be interesting to see a captured screen shot as the rifle recoils. It'd be pretty telling about sight picture when the shot broke....
     
    New features I just thought of, in order of priority:

    1) I want it to have AI and scream “Great shootin’ Tex!” after every shot, even if it’s a miss.

    2) WiFi so I can browse the Hide from the scope view.

    3) An internal hunting game I can play when there’s nothing around to shoot. Maybe COD too, so I can get my Operator on.

    4) It vibrates and makes helicopter sounds so I can feel like I’m back in ‘Nam (even though I’ve never been to ‘Nam).
    I hope your Tigir comes soon or you are going to start asking NVision for a ball gag and a reach around.
     
    well someone already made night vision on that lets you see in color which would be really nice except the 30,000 or more price tag and you probably have to be law enforcement or military to get it like all the really fun toys . But someone made it once someone else could make it for 19.95 someday maybe .
     
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    New features I just thought of, in order of priority:

    1) I want it to have AI and scream “Great shootin’ Tex!” after every shot, even if it’s a miss.

    2) WiFi so I can browse the Hide from the scope view.

    3) An internal hunting game I can play when there’s nothing around to shoot. Maybe COD too, so I can get my Operator on.

    4) It vibrates and makes helicopter sounds so I can feel like I’m back in ‘Nam (even though I’ve never been to ‘Nam).

    #1 ftw

    possible add on - General Lee horn for when you are getting your night time boogaloo on.
     
    Visionaries are often mocked. :giggle:
    People who have "visions" are also frequently locked in padded rooms

    Jokes aside
    NVision is doing good things

    They now gave us another good helmet mounted unit in a price range that doesn't require us to be Horta... So they kind of 1-up'd the patrol here I think

    I imagine a scope update that would give them more "pulsar-ish" features could make some folks very happy and pull some commercial sales away from pulsar for them

    Then HOPEFULLY they can fill the void for a commercial competitor for the UTC xii. That would pretty much put them 1-up on Trijicon across the board
     
    If we could get a UTC type clip on that allowed a lense to be attached to the rear and used as a dedicated sight, that would be the titties.
     
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    Everybody wants so much in a do it all package. Sheesh. If a UTC challenger came along under 10k, fuck all the rest. Buy it and buy it quick. Every tool doesn’t have to be a multitool. Even the UTC is only a UTC. Unless you got cable and AB stuff and an S.

    Excluding the General Lee horn. That should be new mandatory equipment standard. Along with WiFi and COD and pornhub fast linked.
     
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    A HUD
    Everybody wants so much in a do it all package. Sheesh. If a UTC challenger came along under 10k, fuck all the rest. Buy it and buy it quick. Every tool doesn’t have to be a multitool. Even the UTC is only a UTC. Unless you got cable and AB stuff and an S.

    Excluding the General Lee horn. That should be new mandatory equipment standard. Along with WiFi and COD and pornhub fast linked.
    No one's saying that the UTC isn't great. If everyone thought like that, night vision would have never been invented.

    Night vision started off with a dude saying "wouldn't it be cool if we could see at night", a bunch of dudes laughing at him, a few dudes agreeing, and even fewer dudes getting after it and working on it.
     
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    Hello All, I have been quietly watching this thread and I have to say that I greatly appreciate the original challenge by @TheHorta all your ideas and comments. That's the most valuable thing that the product developer can get from educated users. I've been taking notes very carefully and while I can not promise that we will immediately jump into the development of a budget-priced AI-powered - high-performance gaming capable - clip-on seamlessly convertible to the dedicated sight - trace analyzing - helicopter shaking - high-power HiFi audio playing (absolutely including the General Lee horn) - range finding / along the path wind sensing with disturbed reticle AB - HUD compatible miracle because we are currently quite busy with a few other minor things, I can promise you that all your ideas are captured and will be very carefully analyzed when we decide what to build next. Thanks a lot!
     
    Hello All, I have been quietly watching this thread and I have to say that I greatly appreciate the original challenge by @TheHorta all your ideas and comments. That's the most valuable thing that the product developer can get from educated users. I've been taking notes very carefully and while I can not promise that we will immediately jump into the development of a budget-priced AI-powered - high-performance gaming capable - clip-on seamlessly convertible to the dedicated sight - trace analyzing - helicopter shaking - high-power HiFi audio playing (absolutely including the General Lee horn) - range finding / along the path wind sensing with disturbed reticle AB - HUD compatible miracle because we are currently quite busy with a few other minor things, I can promise you that all your ideas are captured and will be very carefully analyzed when we decide what to build next. Thanks a lot!

    ..... you had me with adding "the General Lee horn".
     
    Hello All, I have been quietly watching this thread and I have to say that I greatly appreciate the original challenge by @TheHorta all your ideas and comments. That's the most valuable thing that the product developer can get from educated users. I've been taking notes very carefully and while I can not promise that we will immediately jump into the development of a budget-priced AI-powered - high-performance gaming capable - clip-on seamlessly convertible to the dedicated sight - trace analyzing - helicopter shaking - high-power HiFi audio playing (absolutely including the General Lee horn) - range finding / along the path wind sensing with disturbed reticle AB - HUD compatible miracle because we are currently quite busy with a few other minor things, I can promise you that all your ideas are captured and will be very carefully analyzed when we decide what to build next. Thanks a lot!
    Look at the customer service. cheers to you guys. but while youre at it can you make sure its xbox controller compatible? i hate those pesky playstation controllers. just dont fit my big ol potato fingers.
     
    Look at the customer service. cheers to you guys. but while youre at it can you make sure its xbox controller compatible? i hate those pesky playstation controllers. just dont fit my big ol potato fingers.

    We may consider looking at the Xbox and PlayStation controllers in the future but at the moment it's it not on the near term road map. However, it's an interesting thought... Optics can be really challenging though.
     
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    Controls are plenty easy to use. Menu is a little hard to read, would be nice if the marker was in red to aid in contrast, it gets lost a lil. A range finder would kill everything else in the market( in my very limited experience) and onboard recording. Other than that, the halo lr is off the hook awesome.
     
    (absolutely including the General Lee horn) - range finding / along the path wind sensing with disturbed reticle AB - HUD compatible miracle because we are currently quite busy with a few other minor things, I can promise you that all your ideas are captured and will be very carefully analyzed when we decide what to build next. Thanks a lot!

    I’m no English major and a little slow at times but I think I might be on to your shenanigans there... minor hmmm

    Thank you for trying to integrate the Dukes of Hazard sound board too.
     
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    Hello All, I have been quietly watching this thread and I have to say that I greatly appreciate the original challenge by @TheHorta all your ideas and comments. That's the most valuable thing that the product developer can get from educated users. I've been taking notes very carefully and while I can not promise that we will immediately jump into the development of a budget-priced AI-powered - high-performance gaming capable - clip-on seamlessly convertible to the dedicated sight - trace analyzing - helicopter shaking - high-power HiFi audio playing (absolutely including the General Lee horn) - range finding / along the path wind sensing with disturbed reticle AB - HUD compatible miracle because we are currently quite busy with a few other minor things, I can promise you that all your ideas are captured and will be very carefully analyzed when we decide what to build next. Thanks a lot!

    Taking that as a “yes.”
     
    • Haha
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    Hello All, I have been quietly watching this thread and I have to say that I greatly appreciate the original challenge by @TheHorta all your ideas and comments. That's the most valuable thing that the product developer can get from educated users. I've been taking notes very carefully and while I can not promise that we will immediately jump into the development of a budget-priced AI-powered - high-performance gaming capable - clip-on seamlessly convertible to the dedicated sight - trace analyzing - helicopter shaking - high-power HiFi audio playing (absolutely including the General Lee horn) - range finding / along the path wind sensing with disturbed reticle AB - HUD compatible miracle because we are currently quite busy with a few other minor things, I can promise you that all your ideas are captured and will be very carefully analyzed when we decide what to build next. Thanks a lot!
    Any teasers you can share or an ETA on release!

    I’m dying to hear the General Lee horn in my recording before dumping a yote
     
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