Philosophy of high end optics...

Krob95

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I am that rich BUT I am not rich enough to buy cheap equipment. :p
I don’t care how passionate you are about shooting. If you are going into debt or skimping on essentials to buy an optic, a rifle or whatever, then you’re crazy IMHO
Why yes, I am skimping on essentials, but have you seen my sick ass ZCO 😂
 

Littleluk

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Let me share the thoughts of someone who knows almost nothing about the subject in detail but quite a bit about the motivation. I certainly can't afford top tier and have been spending money on budget stuff as I get back into this sport. But I have some insight on how it works in the fishing world.

I was once told that accuracy boiled down to two things. The shooter and the weapon. The worse a shooter was, the more he needed a better weapon. (if you can hold MOA at 200 yards and have a 2 MOA weapon... you can shoot about a 3 MOA group) If the shooter was a 2 MOA shooter ("half" as good) and had a 1 MOA weapon he could shoot the same 3 MOA group. The winner of course, is the shooter who hold sub MOA and shoots a sub MOA weapon for a MOA group in the X ring. Wisdom gained from a salty USMC double distinguished Staff Sergeant when I was a Corporal. The best tools lead to the best job. Nobody ever wishes they had shot a smaller group (excluding the sandbaggers out there) or scored a few less points in a contest. No-one has ever squeezed a trigger with an intent to kill and been happy with an unharmed or wounded target. Diminishing returns on equipment is a real thing but at the end of the day you remember and regret misses. They turn into next time resolutions. Did you just miss the wind change at the 800 yard mark on your 1000 yard target because you did not see the grass stop blowing. We work all our lives to make ourselves better in our skills and thought processes. Buying a better tool, even if you have to budget for it, means that you will always be a bit better for having that tool and knowing it. 98% of the performance is a 98. It is damn good but it is not 100. If you are not your 100% best and only can muster a 98% on your own.. then with the inferior tool you are now at 96.

I know with fishing that there is nothing worse than loosing when you could have fixed it the day or night before. Bad knots, weak line, dull hooks etc.. can all equal loosing that one fish that matters. Spend 1000.00 on travel, 1000.00 on entry fees and god knows how much on fuel etc. and not getting a check because you did not put on new line at 40.00 a spool hurts. Yeah it is a hobby, as is shooting, and it is not what pays the mortgage or puts food on the table but damn it if I am going to do it, I damn sure care how well I do it.

And even worse.. after thinking about this and typing it out... WTH did I buy a 1200.00 rifle, 1000.00 scope and also just order a rimfire scope etc.. Damn cheap shit.....
 

DannyBoy

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So just to clarify, you'll are warning me that this topic isn't worth bringing up because it will turn into a shit-post fest, and you're warning me by shitposting.
That and I'm getting, "No one is capable of describing how a ZCO is discernably better than a NXS, but one should spend as much money as they possibly can on glass because that's the cool thing to do."
Is all that right?
I feel like im on dangerous grounds by weighing in but i dont see anything wrong with your question. I think we buy the the very finest equipment we can possibly afford and thats because to me confidence is hands down the x factor. If i can upgrade a $100 scope with a $500 because thats what i can afford then I have more confidence and will go the other 10 miles to find what makes that rig shoot like a lazer. Im by no means a great shooter but i do know theres two huge part to the equipment aspect of shooting , the attention to detail when building your rig and buy the best dam equipment your budget allows and even bigger yet is spend the time working up loads to find that sweet ass candy your rig wants to eat. Those rigs will make any of us look like we have serious skill. Pretty generic but hope it helps.
 
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roamin

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I've looked through a ZCO recently. Nice optic but I didn't think it had better glass that stood out any from the rest of the alpha scopes on the market. It struck me as another option rather than the best option.
 
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ShaoKahn

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I look at things a little differently. If I cheap out on something I want, I don’t feel like I saved money, I feel like I wasted it. For instance, if I bought a $1500 scope over my S&B US for $3500, I don’t feel like I saved $2000, I feel like I wasted $1500.

Now there are a few reason why I went with the S&B over anything else. It was going on an HK G28 clone build, so anything other than a German S&B on a German rifle felt wrong, especially on a G28. This was my first scope and rifle and let me tell you, hitting 500 yds on the first shot was ridiculously easy. I was surprised to say the least. I thought to myself, “is hitting 500 yds this easy? What’s all the fuss?” :) It did really well at 800 &1000 yds too, but I need more practice for 1 shot hits.

Yes I have OCD and I typically plan out my builds for what I want the end goal to be. Next projects, SR-25 with a ZCO and then an AI with a TT. I buy once cry once, and plan to keep my gear forever. But they are all purpose built. Others swap out scopes and gear often, so they would have a different goal for selecting the gear I do.

My recommendation, decide on the purpose you have for your build and buy the best equipment you can afford. And that doesn’t mean the change you have burning in your pocket at that time. If you need to save up, save up. I prefer to have one great gun, than a bunch of mediocre low end guns. It just takes up too much space in the safe. ;)
 
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Money Waster

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Very few people can say the have the best of anything- car, house, wife etc. For $3500 you can honestly say you have the best optic money can buy, it seems like a bargain to me.

The average Joe spends more money on fast food, beer, and cable television per year. I say buy whatever makes you happy and enjoy it because if you don't your wife will spend it for you.
This right here. It all depends on what your priorities are. I’m the original owner of a 2002 Ford F-150 with 195,000 miles on it, and it drips oil onto my driveway from a leaking rear main seal. The way that I see it, every year that I continue to drive it, I can afford to dump money into my hobbies.

I recently picked up a S&B PMII 5-25 for my Vudoo. It’s a great scope that I’ll probably never sell. Is it perfect? Eh.....I don’t know. It certainly feels like a quality piece of kit, and the image quality is very good. Turret spacing is a bit close, and it’s easy to overshoot your dial target, but overall I really like it. No regrets.

I also have a USO LR-17 that honestly isn’t that far behind the S&B. Image quality is pretty close, and I actually prefer the turrets of the USO as far as spacing. I paid about the same for each, and I’ll hold on to both as I don’t like to sell things.

Naturally, the ZCO has my attention as the next thing to get considering all the positive reviews. My friends will tell me I’m insane for dropping $3,600 on a scope. I say they’re insane for dropping $50,000 on their truck. I’d rather drive my POS and have nice toys. It’s all about how you wamy to spend your money, and for me, hobbies bring way more joy than having $50,000 sitting in my driveway depreciating by the day. YMMV

Lou
 

Bakwa

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I look at things a little differently. If I cheap out on something I want, I don’t feel like a saved money, I feel like I wasted it. For instance, if I bought a $1500 scope over my S&B US for $3500, I don’t feel like I saved $2000, I feel like I wasted $1500.
This is something I feel when I cheap out too. I've been saying for years that I'm too poor to buy cheap gear.
I've gone through many guns and tools finding what works for me best. I've "wasted" a decent amount of money learning too.
After everything has been said and done, one thing I've learned is that I'm hard enough on stuff to where I need to buy durable equipment. I run Glocks, G-Shock watches, Aimpoints on carbines, known name brand garage tools, etc...
Figure out what you want and drop the coin the first time.
 

308pirate

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Subjective? Depends on which aspect. If you're looking at Optical quality and clarity absolutely not subjective. Optics, durability turret turning / clicks can be Quantified.

The real problem comes into the cost of testing versus retail sales results. Most people wouldn't know what they're looking at.
Holy shit your reading skills suck

We ALL know that there are labs that can do all the testing you're talking about and more.

We also know that none of us have access to them. So we can logically conclude that a thread like this will be 100% full of subjective, unverifiable opinions from the get go and forever more.
 
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ShaoKahn

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This is something I feel when I cheap out too. I've been saying for years that I'm too poor to buy cheap gear.
I've gone through many guns and tools finding what works for me best. I've "wasted" a decent amount of money learning too.
After everything has been said and done, one thing I've learned is that I'm hard enough on stuff to where I need to buy durable equipment. I run Glocks, G-Shock watches, Aimpoints on carbines, known name brand garage tools, etc...
Figure out what you want and drop the coin the first time.
Exactly. I’ve wasted so much money buying “good enough” in the past to find out I really could have used that extra feature or quality. For what I spent on a bunch of “good enough“ stuff I could have bought what I wanted the first go around and enjoyed my time with it much more. Hell, I still have my Pioneer Elite 141FD plasma I bought in 2008 and it’s been fantastic for 12 years. Everyone went through a bunch of junk or “good enough” TVs over the years that probably amounted to more than I paid for mine in 2008 and never could match the quality. MicroLED will be the successor though. ;)
 
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littlepod

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This is something I feel when I cheap out too. I've been saying for years that I'm too poor to buy cheap gear.
I've gone through many guns and tools finding what works for me best. I've "wasted" a decent amount of money learning too.
After everything has been said and done, one thing I've learned is that I'm hard enough on stuff to where I need to buy durable equipment. I run Glocks, G-Shock watches, Aimpoints on carbines, known name brand garage tools, etc...
Figure out what you want and drop the coin the first time.
The problem is not knowing up front if it's going to be a waste or not. Figuring out what you want costs money to get there which is why I'm now a pretty strong believer in just buying used stuff to get behind things, learn if you like it or not, and then start building up / saving for something you do like.

I didn't buy a Vudoo V22 off the bat. I had a 10/22 and then a Tikka T1X. Now I have a Vudoo and I have no regret regarding buying it because I knew after shooting the T1X and doing NRL22 competitions that I would love it and use it a ton. I would say the Tikka T1X and the 10/22 I ended up losing 20% each on shooting those until I got my V22.

Separately I bought a Tikka T3X to go hunting with and realized I don't like to hunt, so I'm super happy that I didn't go and buy a $3000 manners hunting setup.

I think the best advice I have is to buy things used as you can recoup most of the cost for it and you'll get a lot of good experience and time behind scopes, chassis etc.

I went from an Weaver scope, to an Ares BTR, and then an Ares ETR, to a Tract, and now searching for a better reticle that meets my needs. Each one incrementally learning what I like and don't like slowly working my way up. Each scope I lost about $100 on, but I have good experience now between different reticles, turrets, eyeboxes, parallax etc to know what I appreciate. If I magically knew everything up front then sure I could've saved a few hundred dollars but I don't, and wouldn't have learned what worked for me until I tried it.
 

rottenruger

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The problem is not knowing up front if it's going to be a waste or not. Figuring out what you want costs money to get there which is why I'm now a pretty strong believer in just buying used stuff to get behind things, learn if you like it or not, and then start building up / saving for something you do like.

I didn't buy a Vudoo V22 off the bat. I had a 10/22 and then a Tikka T1X. Now I have a Vudoo and I have no regret regarding buying it because I knew after shooting the T1X and doing NRL22 competitions that I would love it and use it a ton. I would say the Tikka T1X and the 10/22 I ended up losing 20% each on shooting those until I got my V22.

Separately I bought a Tikka T3X to go hunting with and realized I don't like to hunt, so I'm super happy that I didn't go and buy a $3000 manners hunting setup.

I think the best advice I have is to buy things used as you can recoup most of the cost for it and you'll get a lot of good experience and time behind scopes, chassis etc.

I went from an Weaver scope, to an Ares BTR, and then an Ares ETR, to a Tract, and now searching for a better reticle that meets my needs. Each one incrementally learning what I like and don't like slowly working my way up. Each scope I lost about $100 on, but I have good experience now between different reticles, turrets, eyeboxes, parallax etc to know what I appreciate. If I magically knew everything up front then sure I could've saved a few hundred dollars but I don't, and wouldn't have learned what worked for me until I tried it.
Think you speak well for the good horsetrader and used buyer........

But not all of us can successfully pick out the used winners....... I bought an AK47 that I had to beat into submission (hung up bolt), and now it works relentlessly, but I'll never trust it in a skirmish, will reach for something else. Likewise, an SKS to back up the AK ammo, will only single fire, think a gas tube problem.......
 

W54/XM-388

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Likewise, an SKS to back up the AK ammo, will only single fire, think a gas tube problem.......
It takes something special to make a SKS not work.
Back in the day you could pull out old 1950s soviet SKS rifles that were shipped over by the crate load, swab it out and start pounding away without a problem. (Unless you were an idiot enough to try to retrofit the removeable magazine business).
 

Magnumdood

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...I was attempting to have a focused conversation on what motivated people to choose optics in one price range over another and if they feel that their choice was justified after the fact....
As long as the alpha scope owner didn't literally steal the scope or otherwise illegally obtain the money to buy the scope his justification is not any else's business...except his for his wife of course.
 
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Dthomas3523

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Think you speak well for the good horsetrader and used buyer........

But not all of us can successfully pick out the used winners....... I bought an AK47 that I had to beat into submission (hung up bolt), and now it works relentlessly, but I'll never trust it in a skirmish, will reach for something else. Likewise, an SKS to back up the AK ammo, will only single fire, think a gas tube problem.......
These are terrible examples to use to compare to optics and precision rifles.

Any top tier manufacturer of either will fix an issue regardless if you bought it used or not. You’ll rarely ever hear of a warranty issue with optics or precision rifles.
 

roamin

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As long as the alpha scope owner didn't literally steal the scope or otherwise illegally obtain the money to buy the scope his justification is not any else's business...except his for his wife of course.
Exactly I think asking people to "justify" their purchases you is a dick move. Why someone would think they're entitled to "justification" of the purchases of others simply because we're both members of the same online forum is beyond me. If the OP wanted to have a conversation about the differences of scopes in certain price points he could he have asked for one but that's not what he did and it's not the way he worded himself thus again dick move. Lots of people are butthurt that certain items are priced more than they'd like/can afford and that's exactly how this makes the OP come across IMO.
 
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Bakwa

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As long as the alpha scope owner didn't literally steal the scope or otherwise illegally obtain the money to buy the scope his justification is not any else's business...except his for his wife of course.
Exactly I think asking people to "justify" their purchases you is a dick move. Why someone would think they're entitled to "justification" of the purchases of others simply because we're both members of the same online forum is beyond me. If the OP wanted to have a conversation about the differences of scopes in certain price points he could he have asked for one but that's not what he did and it's not the way he worded himself thus again dick move. Lots of people are butthurt that certain items are priced more than they'd like/can afford and that's exactly how this makes the OP come across IMO.
Yeah, it sucked when Trump decreed that it was mandatory to respond to questions on internet forums. We don't even have a choice!
I mean, if it was optional then these dicks on the internet would just be inquirers... Right? :unsure:










Nobody demanded that you justify anything. A question was asked, and like any question that's asked on this forum, you can volunteer to contribute your knowledge/experience or ignore.
I feel like I'm living in clown world right now.
 
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roamin

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Yeah, it sucked when Trump decreed that it was mandatory to respond to questions on internet forums. We don't even have a choice!
I mean, if it was optional then these dicks on the internet would just be inquirers... Right? :unsure:










Nobody demanded that you justify anything. A question was asked, and like any question that's asked on this forum, you can volunteer to contribute your knowledge/experience or ignore.
I feel like I'm living in clown world right now.
All questions are voluntary and that doesn't automatically preclude them from any possibility of being rude.
 

918v

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Bakwa:


I have owned NF NXS F1 3.5-15x50 which represents your $2000 price point and I currently own S&B, Hensoldt, Minox which represent your $3500 threshold.

The only thing that they have in common with that NXS scope is build quality. Everything else is better. Glass, controls, click feel, reticles, everything. It’s not just the glass, it’s the whole package.
 
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jtackmann

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As a new-ish shooter there have been a few areas that the ZCO has helped me to more rapidly progress as a shooter over the SB and NF scopes I had previously used. Having the ability to see through mirage a bit better, having a larger FOV as comparable mag ranges, and having better clarity (for my eyes) has helped me spot trace and misses to a much higher degree. There has yet to be a situation where I miss a shot and follow it up with another miss. The TT I had before the ZCO could also do the same fwiw.

Some have said that seeing "the hairs on a gnats balls doesn't matter over just seeing the gnats balls" isn't really an important factor when engaging a target. I would counter that being able to easily see detail in grass and leaves have progressed my wind reading skills at a much more prolific rate. By comparing the ways that various items move at various ranges to what I know as reference points near me makes a huge difference to me.

Originally I made the move to the ZCO for the MPCT2 and the turret feel, however, the above differences from "Tier 2" have made the money spent even more worthwhile. I'm not saying that the ZCO (or a TT) is the scope that makes the most sense to everyone, I'm just adding my experiences to the discussion.

Also, gratuitous DINK life setup pictures ;)

20200601_113247.jpg
20200323_131803.jpg
 

Bakwa

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As a new-ish shooter there have been a few areas that the ZCO has helped me to more rapidly progress as a shooter over the SB and NF scopes I had previously used. Having the ability to see through mirage a bit better, having a larger FOV as comparable mag ranges, and having better clarity (for my eyes) has helped me spot trace and misses to a much higher degree. There has yet to be a situation where I miss a shot and follow it up with another miss. The TT I had before the ZCO could also do the same fwiw.

Some have said that seeing "the hairs on a gnats balls doesn't matter over just seeing the gnats balls" isn't really an important factor when engaging a target. I would counter that being able to easily see detail in grass and leaves have progressed my wind reading skills at a much more prolific rate. By comparing the ways that various items move at various ranges to what I know as reference points near me makes a huge difference to me.

Originally I made the move to the ZCO for the MPCT2 and the turret feel, however, the above differences from "Tier 2" have made the money spent even more worthwhile. I'm not saying that the ZCO (or a TT) is the scope that makes the most sense to everyone, I'm just adding my experiences to the discussion.

Also, gratuitous DINK life setup pictures ;)

View attachment 7389245
View attachment 7389252
Thank you for your insight. You sound like you're a bit ahead of me on the same path. I know what a NF is capable of and I have experience peering through a S&B. Now I'm curious if going up the later will produce a different enough experience.
Anyhow, I'm about to find out. I'm on the list for a MPCT-3. :cool:
You have a very nice setup as well.
 
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631Shooter

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While I’m new to the whole long range game, but not shooting and while reading all these posts, I asked myself, how many of you shoot to your scopes or rifles full potential?

My take is buy what you can afford that has the features you want and when your skill out pass your gear, budget to move up.
 
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918v

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How would one shoot to a scope’s full potential?

Say you have two scopes: a $1500 Cronus and a $3000 ATACR.

By your rules, no one would ever need an ATACR.
 

gnochi

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I paid $5000 for LASIK so I could see clearly without glasses, and get a couple decades before needing reading glasses too. Why hamstring that clarity with cheap glass?

The ZCO that I’m waiting for might not directly make me a better shooter, but if the image is clearer than the Cronus BTR that I could afford 2 years ago, I’ll be happy.
 
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Bakwa

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How would one shoot to a scope’s full potential?

Say you have two scopes: a $1500 Cronus and a $3000 ATACR.

By your rules, no one would ever need an ATACR.
I think they mean something like if the shooter wouldn't improve by using the the more expensive scope then they're not using the "full potential" of their current setup.
 
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Secant

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I paid $5000 for LASIK so I could see clearly without glasses, and get a couple decades before needing reading glasses too. Why hamstring that clarity with cheap glass?

The ZCO that I’m waiting for might not directly make me a better shooter, but if the image is clearer than the Cronus BTR that I could afford 2 years ago, I’ll be happy.
But are you using that $5k LASIK to its fullest potential??? Maybe you should’ve went to a strip mall for $1500 until it was holding you back and THEN upgrade. 😂
 

631Shooter

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I think they mean something like if the shooter wouldn't improve by using the the more expensive scope then they're not using the "full potential" of their current setup.
Yes, that’s exactly it

I’m a RSO and I can’t tell you how many times I have guys with tricked out rigs come and can’t shoot for shit, they could have easily been served well with something less expensive and honed their skills.
 
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jtackmann

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Yes, that’s exactly it

I’m a RSO and I can’t tell you how many times I have guys with tricked out rigs come and can’t shoot for shit, they could have easily been served well with something less expensive and honed their skills.
But this implies you know what their financial situation is, who cares how other people spend their money if it makes them happy.
 
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gnochi

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But are you using that $5k LASIK to its fullest potential??? Maybe you should’ve went to a strip mall for $1500 until it was holding you back and THEN upgrade. 😂
🤣😂🤣😂 Thankfully, unlike surgery, scopes can only permanently ruin your vision if they’re made by Quigley Ford.

Yes, that’s exactly it

I’m a RSO and I can’t tell you how many times I have guys with tricked out rigs come and can’t shoot for shit, they could have easily been served well with something less expensive and honed their skills.
Absolutely. Buying the best won’t make you a good shooter. Buying the best you can afford MIGHT help you avoid certain handicaps, and buying the cheapest probably won’t teach you shit. If your scope holds zero, your rifle still has rifling and doesn’t rattle when you shake it, and your ammo is all the same color with no dents, that’s enough to get started with the basics.
 

Money Waster

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Thank you for your insight. You sound like you're a bit ahead of me on the same path. I know what a NF is capable of and I have experience peering through a S&B. Now I'm curious if going up the later will produce a different enough experience.
Anyhow, I'm about to find out. I'm on the list for a MPCT-3. :cool:
You have a very nice setup as well.
Thank you for your insight. You sound like you're a bit ahead of me on the same path. I know what a NF is capable of and I have experience peering through a S&B. Now I'm curious if going up the later will produce a different enough experience.
Anyhow, I'm about to find out. I'm on the list for a MPCT-3. :cool:
You have a very nice setup as well.
Thank you for your insight. You sound like you're a bit ahead of me on the same path. I know what a NF is capable of and I have experience peering through a S&B. Now I'm curious if going up the later will produce a different enough experience.
Anyhow, I'm about to find out. I'm on the list for a MPCT-3. :cool:
You have a very nice setup as well.
I also think that a lot
While I’m new to the whole long range game, but not shooting and while reading all these posts, I asked myself, how many of you shoot to your scopes or rifles full potential?

My take is buy what you can afford that has the features you want and when your skill out pass your gear, budget to move up.
But this implies you know what their financial situation is, who cares how other people spend their money if it makes them happy.
So much of it is dependent on where you’re at in life. I got back into shooting after a 20 year hiatus while I went out and explored the world. Fast forward to being married, having 3 kids, Work, etc., and all of the sudden thoughts of PRS competition and other endeavors become just dreams. So, you decide to find a path that lets you get the most enjoyment out of your hobby while imposing the least amount of time demand. That’s how I arrived at the idea to break down my .223 PRS style rig and build a Vudoo V22. I went as far as to put a S&B PMII on it. It is easily the nicest rifle I’ve ever owned, and it is very accurate. Me, the wife and kids get significant time on it out in the desert every other weekend or so. All in the rig is probably $5,500, but I absolutely love it as do my wife and kids. It’s amazing to see the levels of accuracy that all of them display at times. Is it better than I am as a marksman? Absolutely, but it brings a lot of joy every time it’s used. At 50 I know that my good years are limited. For once I want to actually get what I want and enjoy what it offers. Life is too short to not get what you want.

Lou
 

918v

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The point I was trying to make is that people can easily start with something less expensive and it can serve them well. Regardless if they can afford something more expensive.
But then they end up buying the equipment all over again at a higher rate.
 

918v

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I think they mean something like if the shooter wouldn't improve by using the the more expensive scope then they're not using the "full potential" of their current setup.
My point was that both the Cronus and ATACR are equally capable. Their potential is the same. One costs twice as much as the other.
 
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Bakwa

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My point was that both the Cronus and ATACR are equally capable. Their potential is the same. One costs twice as much as the other.
I haven't gotten behind a Cronus, but I do have experience with ATACR's. And I have friends who have a significant amount of time behind ATACR's. One thing that I can say with confidence that would make the ATACR worth more to some is that they have been tested, fielded, and beat up under a variety of conditions.
Even if the Cronus is an objective equal in every other way, I can see why one would pay more for [or need] the ATACR's durability. It's earned at least that.
 

Odogster

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Can someone please explain to me why it is that there's always one individual who seems to be compelled to respond to a legitimate question with a sarcastic, rude and usually unintelligent response? Is it that the question is insulting to one's great wisdom that the mere thought of the question is beneath their intelligence level and just frustrates them to no end? Or is it that there's a need to show dominance and superiority? Regardless, why can't they just not respond, turn the page and go on to another thread? An insulting response is a sure sign of one's low intelligence level. Not everyone is a professional shooter and, those that are not, ask questions to learn and educate themselves. But time and time again, it turns out the ones with demeaning and insulting responses are typically amateurs themselves, trying to impress others. Just my thoughts.
Are you kidding me? I wish there was only one of them here. I also wish I could explain it. My ex wife used to call it the bucket of shit theory. Basically, those people walk around all day throwing shit on anyone who crossed paths with them. Then they go home at night look in the mirror and say “How bad can I be, everyone else I saw today is covered in shit?” I can say this though, in many forums those perps are the ones who are some type of moderator. This is the first time they have any authority and they abuse the hell out of it to try and get back at the human race because their lunch money was taken throughout their school days.
 

JustSendit

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Zco and S&Bs are awesome scopes, there is no waste of money there imo. If you like it, then it’s worth it.

But for the overall performance perspective, people are dropping moose and winning 2-day PRS matches with Vortex Razors.
 

Covertnoob5

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While I’m new to the whole long range game, but not shooting and while reading all these posts, I asked myself, how many of you shoot to your scopes or rifles full potential?

My take is buy what you can afford that has the features you want and when your skill out pass your gear, budget to move up.
mmm I’ll have to disagree with this. Full potential of performance capabilities is just one aspect of top notch gear.
say you’re a new shooter that bought an AI or full custom with a zco as your first rifle instead of a ruger rpr with a vortex strike eagle.
You decide you want to shoot matches. Show up to your first match and it dumps rain.
You may not know how to build a position worth a shit, but at least you’ve greatly improved your chances that you’ll get to try to learn on all 20 stages Rather than your rifle or scope going down on stage 3 of day 1 and you wasted all that travel time/money just to watch the rest of us.
who then becomes the better shooter? The guy who got 20 stages of experience that weekend or the guy who had to leave early?
I literally see similar situations like this almost every match I shoot.
another thing top gear brings is confidence. Let’s say you start reloading, I remember when I started reloading it was beyond words how valuable the confidence was that I had in my rifle. As a self taught reloader, I knew if it didn’t shoot the ammo well it was my reloading practices that needed refining not my new rifle.
 

Hootiewho

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^^^ One of the more balanced perspectives in the thread.

I use to work in propagation of error determination in measurement science, so I look at my shooting realistically. Do I really "deserve" a 0.2 MOA rifle if my typical shooting error is 0.3 MOA? If I prioritize it by eating raman and working overtime, damn right I do. But I do know my place in the shooting world.

If you look at any endeavor, there is a nonlinear relationship between cost and benefit. Cars, cigars, stereos and hos - if you want the best, you're gonna pay for it. But what good is making a ton of money if you don't get some personal enjoyment out of all your hard work?
Were you in Ghostbusters?
J/K Brother.
 
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Bakwa

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OP - FYI the thread is a shit show.

Maybe all the posters before #38 were not that far off base.
You may be right.
But it's not a shit show because of people debating back and forth on subjective measurements of scope value [which was the implied warning]. It's a shit show because of the people warning of the "shit show" as well as people attempting to read into my original post as insinuating that higher end optics aren't worth buying over cheaper options. I certainly never said that and never meant to imply that. I just wanted to know how others justified that jump.

There are at least 50 great posts in this thread. It's just unfortunate that a reader has to peel through layers of mud to extract them.
 
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Hootiewho

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The solution is simple! I think the question is, should I make the leap, or should I try to be satisfied with the ho hum. You wouldn't be here asking if you weren't "trying" .

Now as to the solution, SELL that stuff you don't use, care fore, or are attached to, and apply to top tier stuff!

This has been my montra for most of my adult life, and not having abundant $, the above was and is still my solution. I have some nice stuff that turns my crank when I use it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It can take awhile to stepping stone your way up but you'll get there. One of the tricks is buying used, trying it out, and reselling if it doesn't work out. Heck I've made $ sometimes when I resold stuff!

Life is too short to settle....


I’m not a collector. I use everything in my safe often. Like many of the other night hunting dudes here I am about shooting a couple nights a week, all year. Through hard work and looking after peoples land I have acquired thousands of acres I can come and go on anytime. When someone has a cat, dog, or livestock killed by a coyote around here I’ll usually get a call and get another place to hunt. I love it.

I’ve consolidated many guns into a few that fill night hunting roles and defensive roles. Now having said that, those few guns and optics are usually top shelf. I’ve been through a ton of shit in the last 10 years personally. My shooting and getting out at night has been my therapy. That high end German glass was bought instead of TN glass bottles or trying to claim a spot at a bar. My time is very valuable to me. If I am going to spend 5 hours out watching a field, I want to have the best equipment I can buy out there with me. I don’t fish, so I don’t have a money pit boat. I don’t ride motorcycles. I don’t have 3-4 other hobbies. The wife and I decided early on to not have kids. That choice was made so we both could live he lives we wanted to live. I shoot, I train and I hunt pest animals (And shitpost on the internet). I catch a lot of shit verbally among people I know for what I have tied up in my rigs. Usually by those who have money sunk into the things I listed above. I always lol when someone makes a comment about the money I spend on something like a thermal, when they have the same money tied up in fish finders, electric anchor pole thingies, tackle,.... Which one has the better resale? I am also the type of dude who will pull a decked out AI with night capability out of the safe and take someone interested along without a second thought.

It comes down to priorities. Buy what makes you happy or what you need for application X. Don’t worry about what others have due to peer pressure but what fits the list of requirements you have. I wanted the most compact (room for clip on nods),large range magnification scope with exceptional glass I could find. That left the Henny. I could do without the huge turrets but I absolutely love the scopes. Just don’t be casting open judgement at me because my scope says Airbus and I will not do the same because your scope says something else.
 
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DannyBoy

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mmm I’ll have to disagree with this. Full potential of performance capabilities is just one aspect of top notch gear.
say you’re a new shooter that bought an AI or full custom with a zco as your first rifle instead of a ruger rpr with a vortex strike eagle.
You decide you want to shoot matches. Show up to your first match and it dumps rain.
You may not know how to build a position worth a shit, but at least you’ve greatly improved your chances that you’ll get to try to learn on all 20 stages Rather than your rifle or scope going down on stage 3 of day 1 and you wasted all that travel time/money just to watch the rest of us.
who then becomes the better shooter? The guy who got 20 stages of experience that weekend or the guy who had to leave early?
I literally see similar situations like this almost every match I shoot.
another thing top gear brings is confidence. Let’s say you start reloading, I remember when I started reloading it was beyond words how valuable the confidence was that I had in my rifle. As a self taught reloader, I knew if it didn’t shoot the ammo well it was my reloading practices that needed refining not my new rifle.
You hit the nail on the head Covert as i posted on this topic thats the same way i feel about shooting, you just said it much better😊. Im just getting back into loading and shooting agian after 3 yrs. Hurricane Harvey did quite a number on my home and life and dam it feels good to shoot again, reloading and some trigger time is good medicine. I think the best experiance and confidence builder is knowing your equipment is solid (hence dont spare the coin, buy the best gear you can) and perfecting your reloading skill along with shooting skill, seeing how those different loads perform and watching how those groups tighten up with some tweeking. I actually feel myself relax and get into a groove acheiving much better results when i know exactly how that round is going to perform.
 
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Hootiewho

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I look at things a little differently. If I cheap out on something I want, I don’t feel like I saved money, I feel like I wasted it. For instance, if I bought a $1500 scope over my S&B US for $3500, I don’t feel like I saved $2000, I feel like I wasted $1500.

Now there are a few reason why I went with the S&B over anything else. It was going on an HK G28 clone build, so anything other than a German S&B on a German rifle felt wrong, especially on a G28. This was my first scope and rifle and let me tell you, hitting 500 yds on the first shot was ridiculously easy. I was surprised to say the least. I thought to myself, “is hitting 500 yds this easy? What’s all the fuss?” :) It did really well at 800 &1000 yds too, but I need more practice for 1 shot hits.

Yes I have OCD and I typically plan out my builds for what I want the end goal to be. Next projects, SR-25 with a ZCO and then an AI with a TT. I buy once cry once, and plan to keep my gear forever. But they are all purpose built. Others swap out scopes and gear often, so they would have a different goal for selecting the gear I do.

My recommendation, decide on the purpose you have for your build and buy the best equipment you can afford. And that doesn’t mean the change you have burning in your pocket at that time. If you need to save up, save up. I prefer to have one great gun, than a bunch of mediocre low end guns. It just takes up too much space in the safe. ;)
I’m just sayin...

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