Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

[verdugo60]

I have been shooting SMK's in my Savage for a long time. Great bullets. Mine seemed to like a Varget/168 smk load, and so I stuck with that for the past 4 years. I load it pretty hot, and it does fine out to 1000 yards.

Have been shooting more, and my dad and I have been looking at ways to speed up reloading, shoot more, and do it cheaper. Also secondary is having a load we can standardize for 4 .308's(two gas guns, an M1A and AR-10.) ALSO, we wanted to find a powder that we could use in our .223's and .308's so we could buy a buttload of it and have it on hand to load lot's and lot's and also for just-in-case.

Here is my proposed idea:

Powder: BLC-2 equivelant-WC846. It meters well in the Dillon 550, and is cheap.(With "ins" I can get 8# of it with no shipping or Hazmat for $90.I realize it is not the optimum powder for everything, but for .223 heavy bullets in my fast-twist AR15 it works well. I'm hoping it will produce decent loads with the 175 SMK for my 308's.

Bullet: 175 SMK. I have another connection and am getting these as pulldown bullets very cheap. About 1/3 factory price. Will have to do testing to ensure the pulling has not caused them to lose concentricity, etc.

Now, I plan to do some regular brass prep like trimming, resizing for guns as needed. Will neck size with a Redding Neck Die, for just my brass shot exclusively in the bolt gun. Then I plan to charge and seat in the Dillon, just as I would with .223 plinking ammo. No hand throwing charges. No crimping. My hope is that I will be able to produce a somewhat FGMM-like round. Not the most accurate in any rifle, but sub 1 MOA in all four of our guns.

Again, I know how to do a load workup for ultimate accuracy. That's not what this is. I know the 175 SMK is not the ultimate .308 bullet ballistics wise. I know WC846 is temp sensative. The idea here is to have one powder I can use in both my main calibers, to store a lot of it and to load and shoot lots of bullets with relatively little time and money invested. Will start load workup @ 41 grs in Winchester brass with 175 SMK @ 2.82 COAL.

Let me know what you guys think. If anyone has any success with WC846 and 175's let me know. Also if you have managed decent ammo on a progressive without taking lots of extra steps, or given up on that I would love to hear about it. I will document my progress as I work on this project over the winter if anyone is interested. FYI, my buddy is doing something very similar with Lapua brass being the only "indulgence" and is getting 3/4 MOA from three different precision rifles. His dad loads one by one on a rockchucker. My buddy spends half the time loading and shoots way more. Sounds good to me!

Verdugo, out.

 

[sinister]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

Click "Handloading Method" button on the following link:

http://home.comcast.net/~davidawilson/LongRange/LR_Frame.htm

 

[verdugo60]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Click "Handloading Method" button on the following link:

http://home.comcast.net/~davidawilson/LongRange/LR_Frame.htm </div></div>

Thanks Sinister, I actually stumbled acoss his page when googling ideas on this plan of mine. He is still going a little over the top for what I imagined as a simple system to get better than 1moa ammo. It seems that time spent is intrinsic to desired standard of accuracy and consistancy. I will probably start about as simple as I described and add steps/equipment if it doesn't meet MY need for accuracy.

 

[jasonZ]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

You might also look at accurate 2520. It's listed for 308 and 223, plus it's a ball powder so you might not have a compression issue on your 308. I know it will work with pretty good results in a gas gun, but I'm not 100% sure about putting it behind 175's. I didn't look before I posted, so I may be off or wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was listed for 168's. Not much difference in weight, but the powder may not burn fast enough for it. Again I'd check and make sure before using, for safety purposes. Goodluck with it and keep us posted

 

[verdugo60]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TacticalJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You might also look at accurate 2520. It's listed for 308 and 223, plus it's a ball powder so you might not have a compression issue on your 308. I know it will work with pretty good results in a gas gun, but I'm not 100% sure about putting it behind 175's. I didn't look before I posted, so I may be off or wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was listed for 168's. Not much difference in weight, but the powder may not burn fast enough for it. Again I'd check and make sure before using, for safety purposes. Goodluck with it and keep us posted </div></div>

Will do, thanks TacticalJ. I have the new dies and shellplates for the dillon setup ordered, should come this week. Hoping to get a few loaded up for the weekend.

 

[Linkless]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

I've used 2520 exclusively in my .308 with 168's and couldn't be happier. Hornady has loads listed for the 175 as well.

Forgot to add, I loaded on my Hornady LnL AP for quite a while. I would full length size and deprime, then clean the lube and trim as needed. Then put the shells back in and prime, add powder and seat the bullet. The Hornady was ideal for this because the dies can be inserted one at a time or all.

 

[bohem]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

I've done exactly what you're trying but with the Hornady LnL AP instead the Dillon 650.

I also use 2520 and 77 SMK's on my 223.

The results are excellent, both powders are a bit temp sensitive but it makes for great ammo in a hurry.

For a match past 600yd I still take the time to trickle 4064 but I don't bother anymore with practice ammo inside of 600yd on either of those calibers.

 

[Hookman]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

Here is a recent thread on using a Dillon that may help

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...981#Post2705981

 

[Unsichtbar]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

In 1991 Rocky
Mountain Palma Matches International Division and the 1992
International Palma Matches;Dillons were used to load US Palma team match ammo,Below is a like on the subject od progessive loaders for quality ammo.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-565055.html

I think Zediker speaks about it in his book also. http://www.zediker.com/books/handloading/hlmain.html

Several things can be done to make powder measure moore accurate such as polishing ID threads on SH. Another thing is choice of powder ( not Varget) something like 8208 XBR should meter smooth.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

I load my match-308 on a Dillon 650. I use a forster bushing/bump die with a .330 bushing in stage 1. This leaves the caseneck undersized. Station 2 has a sinclair expander, that finished the caseneck at .306" ID. Station 3 has a Satern funnel sitting in it, which the case automatically nestles into and lifts when the ram is raised. Station 4 is empty, and is where I place a bullet into the case upon ram being raised. Station 5 has a Forster ultra-mic seater. All dies are "floating" on O-rings. I achieve .0015 total cartridge runout at WORST.

I charge with Varget which is weighed on a scale.

For your application, for which you obviously require throwing/dropping your charge with a measure, I advise you to look into <span style="font-weight: bold">IMR 8208xbr</span>. I have not worked up a load with it yet, but have played with it going through my RCBS Uniflow measure, and it throws to +/- .15gr consistently. MORE than adequate for sub MOA ammo.

Look into one of the Hornady AP powder measures, as I believe the "ball-valve" type measures are superior to the "sliding-bar" type. Plus, the hornady measure is a self contained unit and doesn't require linkage, and to be positioned in a specific station on your press.

Good luck.

I think the most challenging part of your endeavor is developing a load that works great in any of your rifles.

 

[colt933]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

I do everything you mention on my Dillon 550 except that I use an RCBS chargemaster for every cartridge via a funnel at station 2. Varget for .308.

 

[verdugo60]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

Great info and ideas, thank you guys! Again, I am going to try to start doing the LEAST amount possible to get acceptable accuracy. Then I will add steps if needed. You guys have helped give me both good starting points, and directions I can go in the future with my system. Might just compare this ball load to a varget one using all the same steps. I'm curious how different they will meter with just the Dillon powder measure. Another idea I might use, is developing a winter load, and a summer load with the wc846, since it meters well, but has a bad tendency to be temp sensitive.

 

[colt933]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: verdugo60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great info and ideas, thank you guys! Again, I am going to try to start doing the LEAST amount possible to get acceptable accuracy. Then I will add steps if needed. You guys have helped give me both good starting points, and directions I can go in the future with my system. Might just compare this ball load to a varget one using all the same steps. I'm curious how different they will meter with just the Dillon powder measure. Another idea I might use, is developing a winter load, and a summer load with the wc846, since it meters well, but has a bad tendency to be temp sensitive. </div></div>

My understanding is that WC846 has the same burn rate as WC844 but that 844 burns cleaner so it is used in 556 direct-impingement rifles. 7.62 rifles are not as prone to fouling so 846 is used in loading 7.62 ammo.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

I can testify that good ammunition IS possible from a Dillon 650.

About 10 years ago, I made 308 and 223 both in a Dillon 650, using a separate head for each one, to avoid upsetting the setup for each once it was optimized.

I did the usual cse trimming stuff, but NO primer hole uniforming, flash hole unifroming, or any concentricity measuring at all. I depended on the Dillon powder measure, so powder throw accuracy was whatever that unit can hold (which WAS pretty close, if the OPERATOR was connsistent and MOERATE in his speed

).

I consistently got ammo that could shoot well under .50 MOA out of an Armalite 308TC and a Stoner 223.

Craeful setup, careful choice of components and supplies, and both consistency and moderate speed were the key. Including doing my quality checks, I felt 200 rounds per hour was sensible.

But, this time round I am gearing up for a MUCH slower and hopefully more precise approach, using a Harrell Turret, Wilson/Sinclair trimmer, Redding dies, Sinclair priming tool, etc. There's no rush.

Jim G

 

[BCP]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

I've shot about 400 pulled 175SMK bullets over the past few months. If you sort through them to weed out the ones with excessive pull marks and bad tips they shoot well. If you just use them you'll get fliers every 10-20 rounds.

I would use factory new bullets for your experiment. Also look at AR COMP powder all the reviews say it is temp stable AND a ball so probably goes through a progressive easily enough.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: colt933</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My understanding is that WC846 has the same burn rate as WC844</div></div>

Nope.

WC844 is faster.

edit: I've seen several guys make great 223 ammo through a progressive so I have no doubt that it'd work for 308 too.

 

[jwoolf]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

There are two things that come to mind when trying to speed up the loading process.....

You can find a way to rapidly trim your cases because you can't get around having to trim them.... the other is not having to hand throw the charges.... If you're on a Dillon, buy a rapid trimmer.... if you want to get out of hand throwing charges, use a ball powder... I think Ramshot TAC may be one of your choices... I use it to load .223... it's a slight bit faster burning than IMR4895 but will work in all your chamberings. It will consistantly throw charges with 1/10gr variance or less. You'll still make pretty good ammo and save a lot of time.

On a Dillon 650, I loaded 2k rounds of .223 in one weekend casually.

Case feeder and rapid trimmer will size cases and trim them in no time at all. I can trim and size the cases at the same time and average about 1 case in less than 2 seconds using spray lube. Then set up for loading them... just tumble the lube off after sizing them, dump the cases back into the feeder and start pulling the handle and feeding bullets. Seems like you're taking all your time filling the primer tube.

This is how I mass produce really good shooting .223 on a progressive. I haven't done this with 308 but, it would be the same process. I do set up the rapid trimmer to size and trim the 308 but, I hand throw the charges and I re-size the necks with a collet die to get better neck tension consistancy. For my purposes, it's a good trade off and my real love is my 300wm which I really fuss over.

If you're just trying to mass produce better than off the shelf but do it fast, I'd suggest trying what I've done or some similar process.

For my 300wm, I do it all by hand for best possible accuracy.... I check each case for shoulder bump etc. but, as you say, that's a different animal when going for the ultimate in accuracy.

 

[verdugo60]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

I wanted to update you guys on the progress of my ammo manufacturing!

I did pretty much what I outlined before and ran into a weird thing. After resizing the whole batch of brass, I removed the resizing die from my toolhead. I then got the WC846 metering consistently at 41 grains and started seating bullets at the same time in the Dillon 550. I noticed that when i would check every 5th one or so for powder charge I was consistantly getting 42 grains when seating bullets in the same motion. I know that this was safe in this cold weather, so I decided to shoot the batch that I had hand trickled to 41 and the ones that were at 42.

My results were pretty good. In 40 degree weather I was getting about 2680 FPS with the 42 grains. I shot the smiley competition with this load and didn't do GREAT but I shot a .61" group on it for my 3 shot.

I have since trimmed all my brass(which was some Federal and some Winchester.) I have noticed that now my brass is more uniform in length, the extra grain of powder showing up while seating is gone. I don't know if this is because of some of the brass having stretched to a few to many thousandths(especially the Fed stuff), or if it's because I slowed down and got a more consistent motion. I have now separated the two lots into Winchester and the Fed.

As I explained before, this was an experiment to see if I could use cheap, surplus pulldown powder, pulled bullets and a semi-progressive system to load lots of ammo that would be better than off-the-shelf and useable for most of my accuracy needs in long-distance shooting.

I am happy to report that my dad and I have been shooting 40 grains of WC-846 out of our three rifles pushing the pulled 175 smk's and have gotten better than 1 MOA average out of his DPMS SASS, his Kimber 84M and my Savage precision gun. I have shot a few groups close to .5 MOA, and we were both hitting at 710 yards all day long with it.(We did have a problem with his Kimber getting light primer strikes on the reloads. I am using a Win LR primer and it was barely hitting the primer and not setting off the cartridge most the time. Thoughts?) It shot fine in both the other rifles, and the Kimber shot the factory ammo just fine.

After that round of shooting I trimmed all my brass. After thatIt took me about an hour to calibrate the Dillon powder measure system and then load 175 rounds of .308 brass I had prepped this past weekend. Even while seating bullets at the same time as dropping powder I had just +/- .2 grains variance throughout the whole loading process. I know a big part of the small variance was the ball powder. This load has not been tested in hot weather yet, but if it continues to shoot in the heat in multiple guns as well as it has in the cold, it will be a good all around "store it up and shoot it lots for cheap" round.

To REALLY speed up my process I need to figure out how to trim brass faster(and if chamfering can be done at the same time even better.) What all options do I have out there besides the $400 auto trimmer that you can get as a stand alone unit? Right now I am doing it by hand with an RCBS hand trimmer. It kind of sucks doing big batches, very time consuming.

Aside from trimming(which I would have to do anyways) this system seems to be working and I have loaded those rounds for VERY cheap. They perform about on par with FGGM in my Savage in sub 50 degree temps. Now to load up 1000 and try to shoot it a bunch in the summer.

Hope this helps people considering trying similar progressive system to load quality match or practice ammo. I feel for the time I spent loading last time, I got a lot of pretty good ammo(Avg .75 MOA) for very cheap. Hard to beat that!

 

[turbo54]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

Awesome followup. This is my style - see my sig.

I know it's costly, but the $400+ giraud trimmer is what you need to shift your ammo plant into high gear.

 

[verdugo60]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

Thanks Turbo, I think it makes more sense to spend time shooting, and to have enough ammo when I do make it out to the range(especially a good distance one, which is harder to find here in Denver than my home state of Idaho.)

The Giraud will be a B#$* up front to buy, but I'm sure eventually I will get one. Maybe when I'm shooting 5-10 LR matches a year, and I need an even faster means of production. Just wondering if there is anything practical in-between the Giraud and the hand crank.

 

[hofhine1]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: verdugo60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I I know a big part of the small variance was the ball powder.</div></div>


It's actually not the fact that it's ball powder, but that it is 846 ball powder. I've been loading the stuff for a couple years, and while I find 844 to meter plus or minus a tenth on my 1050, ( assuming I'm running it, and have a decent rhythym going) the 846, in the <span style="font-style: italic">exact</span> same measure, exact same machine, can run out four tenth's, and I see no rhyme nor reason to it. I've decided, (in my feeble mind anyway) that it has a tendency to be able to <span style="font-style: italic">settle </span>more in the bar than 844, 2230, 2520 or TAC. Guys who don't know much pretend they do by coming up with this kind of horseshit, but it works for me.

And some one said 844 is the faster of the two, not so, consult any rate chart known to man and you'll see. They are right in the ball park, but the energy is completely different.

Although I see guys that want to spend two hours loading twenty rounds so they can show their friends one hole groups at a hundred off a bench, I'd rather sit down and load 500 rounds of what I've decided is three quarter MOA ammo and take a bunch of friends out and shoot the crap out of some steel at 440 out of the back of a ford pickup. Or shoot a sixty shot HP match at 600, and see the results of every shot that goes downrange.

If your on a 550, I'd suggest two things, a turbo bearing, and drill and tap your toolhead, to get the 'float' out of it. I think mine took a 1/4-20 tap right outta the box, and it's been fine ever since. On the trimming, I think a rapid trimmer is your goto tool. Or do like me and buy your brass from Scharch for 20 cents, shoot it and sell it, you'll never trim another piece.

I've come up with four 168 loads off the dillon that'll run with FGMM all day, using 2230, 2520, TAC, and both 844 and 846, but like you found out, I don't size and drop powder if I want the stuff really good, but anymore I just don't think the guns care. Couple tenths don't matter at 600 unless your shooting an F-class target anyway, on a 11 by 18 piece of steel, I think it's gun and shooter.




sean

 

[turbo54]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: verdugo60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Turbo, I think it makes more sense to spend time shooting, and to have enough ammo when I do make it out to the range(especially a good distance one, which is harder to find here in Denver than my home state of Idaho.)

The Giraud will be a B#$* up front to buy, but I'm sure eventually I will get one. Maybe when I'm shooting 5-10 LR matches a year, and I need an even faster means of production. Just wondering if there is anything practical in-between the Giraud and the hand crank. </div></div>

I don't think there is a practical trimmer for someone pretty serious, other than a Giraud. Here's why:

When I got started, I didn't trim. After a while, I recognized I needed to do some trimming. I bought a Lyman trimmer. Then I bought the inside/outside chamfer tool. Then I wore out a cutter head and bought a new one. Then I bought the power attachment

Lyman trimmer: $75
chamfer tool: $15
extra cutters: $20
Power attachment: $25

TOTAL: $135

Resale Value: $50

Results? A pain in the butt trimmer I hate using, that does a "fair" job. Each piece gets manually chucked, then the pilot goes into the neck, and the chuck tightened. Then you crank. Later, you get to individually chamfer the inside of each piece of brass. Then you get to individually chamfer the outside of each neck.

There are better trimmers than the Lyman, but the basics are all the same. The RCBS Trim mate pro with 3 way cutter is a certain improvement, but it's pretty expensive too. I can't imagine NOT spending the extra money for a giraud. A Gracey is an improvement over the RCBS, and is by all rights a good unit, but you really need Giraud cutters for it, and by the time you're tooled up with a well-outfitted Gracey, you're darn close moneywise to a Giraud.

Giraud....

Trimmer: $450

Resale: $400

I don't see what could be more practical than buying the *right* piece of equipment that can produce the desired results perfectly and nearly instantly, and holds its value so that you can sell it, nearly instantly, for a very, very minor loss in money.

 

[1lnbrdg]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

I trim with Dillon trimmer. I had a Gracey trimmer but it tends to make my fingers sore after a few hundred rounds. I use the Gracey to de-burr after trimming in the Dillon.

Not recommended but put the Dillon Trimmer in station#3 of my 550 and decapping pin in station #1. Touched to the Gracey for a

de-burring/chamfer. Trimmed & de-primed on the 1st pass through, powder'd & bullet seated on the final pass.

 

[verdugo60]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

What about the WBT trimmer that you get set up on the drill in a chuck? It looks pretty good. Might be a decent way to go before nutting up for the giraud...

PS, I just bought the swage 600 from dillon to get a ton more brass ready to load up. Should be awesome!

 

[hofhine1]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

If you mean the one from Creedmore, I think it's a WFT, absolutely rocks, if your hand can take it. I borrowed one and could do about a hundred or so at a time, but I've about wrecked both my hands from having such an exquisite job for the last 25 years.

And I'd bet a dollar you wouldn't lose much owning one, I'd give sixty for a used one all day.


Sean

 

[verdugo60]

Re: Pipedream? Cheap, fast sub MOA 308 from a Dillon.

Thanks Hofhine that was it and I have one on order to process a bunch more .308 brass over Christmas. I will get the Giraud someday.