Suppressors Pistol leash or not?

[OregonShooter]

I'm taking the Integrated Weapons Course from "Super Dave" next month and am considering adding a leash to my leg drop G17 in a Safariland 6004.

I've never ran a leash but can see the benefit of it when in full kit and coming back to the primary off the secondary weapon. I'm thinking it could really save my bacon (i.e. not lose my sidearm) if I were to run off and forget to roll the hood back up or miss the holster and not notice the gun on the deck.

Would appreciate any input from guys who have run a leash and a PRO / CON, thumbs up or down on running a leash in full kit.

"Full kit" being a chest harness and battle belt.

 

[BookHound]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

You should train to store your sidearm properly. If you have transitioned to your sidearm it is because your primary went down and you need to get a gun in the fight as fast as possible. You should continue running your sidearm until have have the opportunity to get the primary back up and running. Part of that process is topping off that secondary (if necessary) and properly storing it.

A lanyard is something I've never felt I needed. I've never used one. I've taken several S. Dave classes (among others) and never saw the need for a lanyard. YMMV.

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

Upon first entering the military I ran a lanyard on my sidearm as it was "the standard". It lasted through my predeployment training and the first 2 months I was in country. It lasted until the day my team was entering a house and the lanyard snagged on the door knob.... Loud noise, soft compromise, EOM.

The 3 things I hate on any kit... Bulk, Noise, and Snag.

Drop the lanyard, become competient and praticed with your equipment. I know they make retracting lanyards but snags will happen when you least expect it.

Just my $00.02

 

[OregonShooter]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something on the leash.

The only time I can see it being an advantage would be going H2H in the middle of transitioning back to primary or at slide lock/jam on the secondary.

That's some pretty bad luck and not even on the radar percentage wise IMO, but "if it saves a fumble one time, it's worth it" kept coming to mind even though my gut said the CONs out weigh the PROs.

No leash for me, appreciate the confirmation.

 

[cjaclwill]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

Unless you are jumping out of an airplane and are worried about losing it I would say forget about it. If you are jumping out of an airplane and hit the ground then you can lose it. Your holster will serve you well if you train with it and know what your doing. Just my .03...

 

[buckskin52]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

I would not go without a lanyard (I used blackhawks.) We had one guy in afghanistan lose his pistol. I would have lost mine at least twice if it were not for the lanyard. The weapon was stored properly in a Safariland holster but spending alot of time on your belly or crawling around tends to unlock the bail. I would not encourage a 550 cord lanyard but the slinky style from blackhawk served me very well. A sidearm is of no use if it is not on you. For training purposes I would go without it but if you prefer to train as you fight I would encourage it.

 

[bpsc]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

Unless your gonna be around water, you dont need a lanyard (leash)

 

[OregonShooter]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

Blaster7,
Thats the nagging question on my mind. Would i want a leash in shtf if i had onl one sidearm? If so, then i should be training that way. Shit happens and people miss the holster under pressure no matter how smooth they are.

Ok, still undecided. lol

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

I would almost bet that if Sdave saw your weapon on the ground hot and teathered ... you are going home reguardless.

 

[BookHound]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsydlooknin75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would almost bet that if Sdave saw your weapon on the ground hot and teathered ... you are going home reguardless. </div></div>


LOL. No doubt! Failing to maintain positive control of your weapon(s) is an SDave class will get you a serious butt chewing and, at times, a kick in the butt on your way to your car. Only time I got yelled at by Dave was many years ago (I am thinking like 2002??) I jumped the buzzer on a drill. It was, "Shooter ready?" My response was, "Bang, bang." Then the guy next to me (we were supposed to be racing) threw up his M4 and double tapped his target. Then we hear "BEEP". LOL. Oops. Dave came over and asked, "Where is your head??" My response was, "Straight up my ass." All he said was, "Well, you better get it outta there." Ha, ha. My race partner had this look on his face like "Oh please, don't yell at me. Please, please, please."

I remember that like it was yesterday.

I once threw an M4 behind me about 10 feet. This was in a Hackathorn class but SDave was there too. At a previous Hack class he was pontificating about the virtues of single-point slings. I've always been a three-point guy but I figured what the hell. So, before that next Hack class I played around with a single-pointer that had a fast-attach buckle on it. During a transition drill I ran the M4 to the dummy round we were using to simulate the weapon going down, I dumped the M4 with my support hand and the stupid buckle got hung up on my vest and came loose. Because single-points allow the weapon to hang straight down (often hitting your knees and nuts) I was tossing the weapon around my side. Well, the result was the rifle behind me about 10 feet in the dirt.

Hack walked over, looked at the rifle on the ground, looked at the sling around my torso and said, "We, that sucked. Did you learn anything here?" LOL. Glad Dave didn't get to me before Hack did.

 

[buckskin52]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

There are definetly pros and cons to the leash. Being in the middle of the mountains with only two other guys swithching pointmen, taking security halts, getting up and down off the ground with over 130 pounds of gear the bail did come undone a few times and the pistol was dragged a few feet. In an urban enviroment where you are most likely going to hold that area and control it and have the opportunity to get the weapon back, I would not use one, but I sure as hell was not going to risk having to hump all the same terrain I just did to look for a pistol that fell out of a holster. I guess it depends on what your training for.

 

[BookHound]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blaster7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I guess it depends on what your training for. </div></div>

Exactly! Agree 100%.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

I did a stint in the MPs when I first came back from Vietnam. We had to wear those "Leashes" ( we called them lanyards). That was a while ago, but if I remember right those suckers got caught on everything.

No sir, I'd leave the leashes on the dogs, if you cant hit your holster with your gun, how you gonna hit the target?

 

[Guest]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OregonShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm thinking it could really save my bacon (i.e. not lose my sidearm) if I were to run off and forget to roll the hood back up or miss the holster and not notice the gun on the deck.

</div></div>

limited holster familiarity + lanyard = big mess

holster mastery - lanyard = victory


Rolling the hood back should be second nature when returning back to the holster. Also, returning to the holster without looking should be also.

I would strongly consider your holster selection (types of, amount of, and effort required to overcome retention devices.) Holster selection will always be a battle between retention and access until the end of the sidearm (time).

After you make your selection, practice like a mofo. Defeating and re-securing retention devices should become automatic.
It's the rule of 10's
100x reps for familiarity
1000x for proficiency
10000x for mastery

 

[OregonShooter]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

Pointblank4445,

I'm not sure where I gave anyone the impression I'm not familiar with the 6004, but I am.

I carried my Glock 21 in a 6280 on duty and have lots of muscle memory on the 6004 also. Re-holstering is not an issue, but I know from competition that a guy can do a MOA manipulation a million times and still miss. I also know that shit happens and it's always at the worst time.

The best answer so far has been the question "what are you training for?"

Well that's a good question. What would any citizen not active in the military or on SWAT be training for by taking a Super Dave "Weapons Integration Course?" Civil unrest. Since out country seems headed the same way Argentine did, it is likely coming sooner than later.

That and it's fun to shoot and wear cool gear.

I lost my rifle in S. Korea (as a young 0311) one cold night when I got Hypothermia. I was so out of it I didn't notice it was gone, but lucky for me my FT searched the rice paddies until they found it. It didn't set in how much of a cluster that was because I was too far out of it, but later it scared the crap out of me.

If I lose a secondary in the situation I'm training for, the likely hood of resupply is next to nil. Maybe a lanyard is worth it then?

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

We were forced to use lanyards when I was in the Marine Corps and we were doing security around ships and docks, made sense, didn't want to drop a pistol in the drink.

When we used them in any tactical movements, they got snagged on everything. Also, it was a bad feeling watching a Marine run down the range dragging a hot pistol attached to a telephone cord.

The Safariland hoods are constantly popping forward anytime they bump anything, especially the magazine on an M4.

My advise, don't use a lanyard, and get in the habbit of constently feeling for your pistol and that hood, especially after any type of movement or obsticles.

 

[Guest]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

Fair enough, given your "if" statements in the original post I felt it reasonable to thrust upon those 2 points before adding other elements.

FWIW,

I've know some operators who have added their own little extras for extra retention during "sneak & peaks". Some of these include but are not limited to velcro straps and electrical tape. And these things are easily removed/disengaged prior to other activities.

 

[koz]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

I ran a Safariland holster with the "Sentry retention" and never had any problems with my pistol coming out of the holster unless I wanted it to. That included a few A-stan trips and some SouthCom (jungle) trips as well. To me a lanyard is asking for problems.
My .02

 

[OregonShooter]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We were forced to use lanyards when I was in the Marine Corps and we were doing security around ships and docks, made sense, didn't want to drop a pistol in the drink.

When we used them in any tactical movements, they got snagged on everything. Also, it was a bad feeling watching a Marine run down the range dragging a hot pistol attached to a telephone cord.

The Safariland hoods are constantly popping forward anytime they bump anything, especially the magazine on an M4.

My advise, don't use a lanyard, and get in the habbit of constently feeling for your pistol and that hood, especially after any type of movement or obsticles. </div></div>

You bring up a good point. I tend to ride my hand on the lock when standing around, and do rock the hood forward after snapping it back to make sure it engaged.

I was hoping the snagging trouble was with too long of telephone cords, but sounds like they just won't stay out of the way.

 

[OregonShooter]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

I think just about every point of the argument has been made at this point?

Constant awareness of the secondary and double checking habits will be the way I go.

Thanks for the real world experience info guys!

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

Ran A GemTec TRL for almost a decade and never had an issue with snags while crawling all over ships engine rooms and climbing conex boxes.

The telephone cord has plenty of play that you can attach the TRL just behind the left hip (if rt handed) which keeps the cord snugged up close to your belt, still have no issues bringing up on target and shooting weak side.

Disclaimer yes I was working around water so lanyards are a must, honestly cant see much need if on land. Only thing I could see would be if you are say an LE SWAT and need to repel or enter via a ladder, basicaly if there is a possibility of dropping the weapon.

 

[christian77]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OregonShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think just about every point of the argument has been made at this point?</div></div>
I don't think I saw anyone mention their strong-hand being disabled due to GSW or whatever. If you NEED TO shoot weak-hand but are tethered to your strong side it's a bad place to be...spare me the, "...but my lanyard stretches far" or "it's long enough to do that" argument 'cause it's plain stupid IMO.

 

[steppenwolf]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blaster7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would not go without a lanyard (I used blackhawks.) We had one guy in afghanistan lose his pistol. I would have lost mine at least twice if it were not for the lanyard. The weapon was stored properly in a Safariland holster but spending alot of time on your belly or crawling around tends to unlock the bail. I would not encourage a 550 cord lanyard but the slinky style from blackhawk served me very well. A sidearm is of no use if it is not on you. For training purposes I would go without it but if you prefer to train as you fight I would encourage it. </div></div>

Sort of a "bingo."

The bottom-line answer to this, and similar questions, is that <span style="font-weight: bold">the mission drives the gear train</span> (i.e., is the gadget you want what you actually need for the task you contemplate needing/using the gun for?)

If you're at the range just tweaking it (plinking) before grabbing beers and a ballgame, or maybe running through a 2-day training class, the need for a lanyard/gun-leash is probably low.

OTOH, if you're under direct AK fire while crawling through a mud-field in the 'Stan, then, yeah, a lanyand could be needed to keep your pistola with you, or at least it's not hurtful to use one.

As someone noted, you can argue the issue both ways.

The more mission-essential the item, then - other things being equal - the more it makes sense to have it rather than not.

 

[OregonShooter]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

I gotta think one handed manipulations with the support hand would be pretty tough with a lanyard.

"mission drives the gear" is about a cliche as "another tool in the toolbox" IMO.

Do I need a camelbak on my fighting rig for a class or casual shooting or 3gun? No.

Will I want one if I'm out in the woods trying to survive or defending a post and need to stay hydrated and mobile? yes.

Do I practice for the worst case "mission" thus take the class with the camelbak so it's not my first time using it when the mission that requires it comes along, or leave it behind and drink from a bottle of water because it does just as well during the class?

The mission does drive the gear, the issue is which mission are you training for at any given session and how much time do you devote to a specific task or piece of equipment?

Shooting support hand only with a rifle is not tops on the list and we practice it a lot less than higher percentage drill/skills, but it is not something you want to "learn" when your strong arm is missing and rounds are inbound, IMO.

Needing a lanyard is not a high percentage "need" to accomplish a mission, but when I'm in a situation where that is the only gun I will ever have for a secondary, attaching a cord to it sounds like a good idea. Kinda like when I attach a cord to my GPS.

Just saying...

 

[steppenwolf]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OregonShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I gotta think one handed manipulations with the support hand would be pretty tough with a lanyard.

"mission drives the gear" is about a cliche as "another tool in the toolbox" IMO.

***

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">The mission does drive the gear, the issue is which mission are you training for at any given session and how much time do you devote to a specific task or piece of equipment?</span></span>

***
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Needing a lanyard is not a high percentage "need" to accomplish a mission, but when I'm in a situation where that is the only gun I will ever have for a secondary, attaching a cord to it sounds like a good idea.</span></span> Kinda like when I attach a cord to my GPS.
Just saying...

</div></div>

What I just said in my post, if you read it ...

Just saying.

 

[OregonShooter]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steppenwolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What I just said in my post, if you read it ...

Just saying.

</div></div>

Not exactly. If you read closely my point is that "shouldn't the 'mission' we train for be the worst case scenario?

If so, then the gear for any practice time would include a laynard for 'THAT' mission, not the range/class/non-worst case practice time.

Granted there is going to be the never ending question of "risk verses reward" which puts us back at the "good for working over water and in non-resupply situations" position.

In the end, for me... It is practice with the lanyard, understand it's potential downfalls and then use it only when "the mission drives the gear" which seems to be the two situations I just referred to above as the most likely.

So the gear is actually being driven by a "possible" mission instead of the one at hand in this case.

Clear as mud? LOL

Anyway: "the mission drives the gear", "another tool in the toolbox", "Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, and tactics dictate techniques." and all boil down to two words IMO... "It depends."

And don't really give an answer to any question directly, but sound really cool on a forum or in a sigline.

And steppenwolf, I'm not hashing on you directly for the "mission/gear" thing, just venting a bit.

I won't be using one in class, but will practice later on my own with a dummy cord as I don't plan on needing a dedicated leash system, but can see a time and place where a 550 cord would be welcome and easy to attach.

 

[steppenwolf]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OregonShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steppenwolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What I just said in my post, if you read it ...

Just saying.

</div></div>

Not exactly. If you read closely my point is that "shouldn't the 'mission' we train for be the worst case scenario?

If so, then the gear for any practice time would include a laynard for 'THAT' mission, not the range/class/non-worst case practice time.

Granted there is going to be the never ending question of "risk verses reward" which puts us back at the "good for working over water and in non-resupply situations" position.

In the end, for me... It is practice with the lanyard, understand it's potential downfalls and then use it only when "the mission drives the gear" which seems to be the two situations I just referred to above as the most likely.

So the gear is actually being driven by a "possible" mission instead of the one at hand in this case.

Clear as mud? LOL

Anyway: "the mission drives the gear", "another tool in the toolbox", "Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, and tactics dictate techniques." and all boil down to two words IMO... "It depends."

And don't really give an answer to any question directly, but sound really cool on a forum or in a sigline.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">And steppenwolf, I'm not hashing on you directly for the "mission/gear" thing, just venting a bit.

I won't be using one in class, but will practice later on my own with a dummy cord as I don't plan on needing a dedicated leash system, but can see a time and place where a 550 cord would be welcome and easy to attach. </span></span></div></div>


Yeah, not a problem. Venting is fine.

For me, I don't use a lanyard much. I used one in one training course, just to try it out on a real rainy, wind-blown day. I wore the pistol on a belt set-up on the outside of rain gear. For that evolution, it was all about testing my guns and gear under those conditions. Just something I wanted to try ...

I do, however, use a lanyard on the pistol I carry when I'm out in the boonies hunting with a long gun. In that context, it's a "just-in-case" thing.

I'm not in the 'Stan or the Sand Box, ... and I don't anticipate going to either place anytime soon. So, on my list of needs that "drive the gear train," a lanyard just isn't that needful.

For others, I do allow as how it might be.

Stepp

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

On a military sidearm in a non-permissive environment where it is my "last ditch" or die? I will definitely be running a lanyard. When we were patrolling my M9 was always holstered and attached with the old POS lanyard.

I work a different "mission" now and a lanyard ain't going to happen. I have too much other shit hanging off of my body and I am moving in a dynamic environment.

"Full Kit" for me is more than a harness and belt.

If "I" were taking your class I would not run a lanyard. To me Lanyard + Thigh rig is a problem waiting to happen. I greatly dislike thigh rigs and the only reason I run one is to clear my armor.

 

[acespeedy]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

I ran a Pistol Leash on my rig for a couple of years. If I was running my pistol as my primary (and only F/A) I wanted to make sure it stayed with me. I figured if I took a round into my primary hand/arm I would still be able to recover my pistol by pulling in the lanyard with my support hand should I drop it and continue fighting. Just make you sure you train with it. I saw a guy transition to his support side with the lanyard attached and sent a round into the berm prematurely because the lanyard got caught up on his rig. Luckily it was in a training environment and not out in the real world where he could have been liable for the round.

About a month ago I saw a lanyard that was a thin steel cable that was self contained in a little housing, and was self retracting. I wish I could remember the brand. I found this one on the web, but I’m not sure if that was the one he had. http://www.gearkeeper.com/firearms/sidearmretractin.html

Good luck on your class.

 

[stefan73]

Re: Pistol leash or not?

I had a lanyard on my M9 for both deployments! I didn't want the thing falling out while under fire and risk loosing it. It never bothered me when shooting with it with the exception of reloads and even then it was negligable. I would get one of the ones that look like the old telephone cord. Its nicer to use.