Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

[JimGnitecki]

I just got into precision rifle shooting (after decades in handgun shooting), and chose a semi auto as my first precision rifle. However, I keep seeing references here and elsewhere to high quality bolt rifles. Because I know nothing about bolt rifles, I feel like I need to let a lot of potentially useful information sail right on by me. I hate to do that, as I'm sure I'll get a bolt rifle as well sometime, as I have already found I love precision rifle shooting, and the hand loading and other skill sets associated with it, and I like the relative pureness and simplicity of a bolt rifle.

Can you guys and gals educate me a bit on:

- What companies make really good bolt rifles (doesn't necessarily mean only the expensive ones!)

- What models from those companies are highly regarded, and why?

- Which companies are known for what strengths and weaknesses?

- If you already have a 308 semi auto rifle, would you get another 308 in a bolt rifle, or would you be better advised to do a different caliber (like 338 Lapua), and why?

Whatever you talk to me about, it needs to accept optics gracefully. My eyesight is not good enough anymore to do long range shooting with open or peep sights.

Simple maintenance would be a big plus (metal chassis versus bedded?).

Jim G

 

[ShtrRdy]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

I would also be interested in this sort of information.

 

[XOK-DESIGN]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

Nothing wrong with having two rifles both in 308. I'd wouldn't recommend going to any of the magnum calibers especially the 338 until you've mastered the smaller stuff out to 1000yds, cause they can give you a real flogging if your not ready for them, also they cost more to run. If your rifle is expensive and painful to use your now going to use it as much as you should.
As for brands there are lots of good ones for reasonable prices Remington, Tikka and Savage are a few that come to mind but there are others, Remington particularly IMO. You should be able to buy just about any of there heavy barrelled target, tactical or varmint models in an appropriate calibre and hold your own at the range.

 

[STR]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

I would go with a Remington 700 or a Winchester 70 which is the same as an FN. Both can be turned into Tac drivers by any of the high quality smiths here on the Hide, if they aren't already from the factory as some are. 308 is fine, but if you're into hand loading, or plan on being, then I personally like the 6.5 family. These would include the Remington 260, 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5x47 Lapua. They each have pros, and minor cons. There is plenty of info here already written on everyone of these rounds. There are others like Savage that are also fine rifles, I just happen to favor the above mentioned.

 

[AzNooB]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

High quality? Accuracy International AE and Sako. Their rifles are built from the ground up as military/LE sniper rifles as opposed to being hunting rifles modified for precision shooting. While the accuracy might not be any better than a well made custom Remington, they'll definitely be more robust.

For custom guns, GAP and Surgeon seem to be the most popular. There's a bunch of other good shops that will make a great rifle off of a Remington action or whatever you want but that's not really within my realm of knowledge.

Actions:

Remington 700: Popular due to aftermarket availability and the fact that our military uses it.

Winchester 70/FN: Known for controlled round feed for the pre-64 versions.

Howa 1500: Well made with one piece bolts, nut fewer smiths work on them due to the metric barrel threads.

Mauser: These have been around for over a century and are tried and true workhorses. Depending what you have, it may be sacrilege to modify an old war piece.

Savage: A great value and known for out of the box accuracy.

Tikka: Bolts glide like glass. From the people that brought you Sako. Also extremly accurate factory rifles from what I hear.

That was a down and dirty introduction. You're going to have to do some research on your own about these rifles/actions.

 

[Remoah]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

<span style="font-weight: bold">- What companies make really good bolt rifles (doesn't necessarily mean only the expensive ones!)</span>
Remington, Savage, Tikka/SAKO, Howa, in generally that order, are well supported, 'factory' rifles.

When it comes to custom, the world is your oyster.
GAP, LAP, Surgeon and Badger are also very popular Custom actions/smiths.

Accuracy International and DTA are also very popular 'factory' rifles, but are very high end, military use rifles. The Sako TRG also falls into this category.

<span style="font-weight: bold">- What models from those companies are highly regarded, and why?</span>
Models? Well i'm not going to go so in depth and list every good model, buuuut here's a few that most people enjoy.
Remington: 700P, 5R, Sendero, AAC.
Savage: 10FP, 10PC, 10FCP.
Howa: 1500 (they only make this model, you can 'build' your gun with them)
Tikka: T3 Varmint, T3 Tactical (I'd go the Varmint, the tactical is just overpriced)
FN: No idea, most of the 'police' ones i guess.
Sako: TRG-22/42. (Note, Tikkas are made by Sako, in the same factory even).

Customs... well. You get exactly what you want. Every time, down to the penny.

<span style="font-weight: bold">- Which companies are known for what strengths and weaknesses?</span>
Remington: All-round. Jack of all trades, master of none. Huge aftermarket support. Most people would recommend a remington.

Savage: Low cost, accurate and tough. Fit and finish are usually average at best. Bolts can feel slopply and rough (but are very accurate). Biggest factor is 'home gunsmithing'. You can change barrels/boltfaces/ect without requiring costly trips to the Smith. Aftermarket support is ok, but nothing will ever have as much backing as the Remington 700 platform.

Tikka: Cheaper Sakos. Barrels for the Tikka's are made on the same machinery as the TRG line of rifles which retail for 5x as much. As are the Actions. Tikkas reek of quality in everything except the stock and magazine. The action is smooth, trigger crisp (and easily adjustable). Aftermarket support for this brilliant rifle is growing as well. I'm biased, but i would reccomend a Tikka.

Howa: Price and Quality. They're japanse, and to quote Richard Hammond from top gear (talking about japanese small cars), "Everything is Enough..."
Nothing is over engineered, the quality is good (for the price), and there is nothing left wanting.
They also have a new 'dream rifle' concept. You pick the barrel (heavy or sporter), the stock, and a scope. They also now offer an aftermarket bottom metal.
Howa has very limited aftermarket support, there is some, but there's less choice than Tikka/Savage/Remington. However, the rifles are very cheap!

<span style="font-weight: bold">- If you already have a 308 semi auto rifle, would you get another 308 in a bolt rifle, or would you be better advised to do a different caliber (like 338 Lapua), and why?</span>

I like the .308, however, the boltgun DOES open up a whole world of calibre's that aren't so easily accessible in an AR or other self-loading platform.
However, it doesn't mean you have to jump to the next common military calibre.
There's rounds like .260, 6.5x55 and .243 that are all very good ballistically that are usually inaccessible in an autoloading platform.

If you like the .308, there's nothing wrong with it. It's a good round.
However, if you feel like a change, then there's a lot more out there.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Whatever you talk to me about, it needs to accept optics gracefully. My eyesight is not good enough anymore to do long range shooting with open or peep sights.</span>

Practically All bolt rifles will accept optics.
Most rifles out there have the ability to mount a rail/rings. Best bet is to get the rifle and then find a good manufacturer who sells rails/rings. EGW (more of a budget brand), Badger, LaRue and Seekins are just a few off the top of my head that are good to go.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Simple maintenance would be a big plus (metal chassis versus bedded?).</span>

Savage is user friendly.
As is Tikka... kinda.

Once bedded, a rifle will be just as easy to remove from the stock as a chassis. In fact, Manners (a good stock company) produce the MCS-MiniChassis that fits into their regular stocks to form a chassis system in a conventional stock.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

Do any of the companies of factory rifles have an accuracy spec for any of their models? I was looking on the Remington website the other day and couldn't find anything listed.

 

[Remoah]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

Some do, some don't.
Remington quality control has gone out the window. Due to the scale of production, factory rifles like Savage and Howa usually accept around 1-2MOA as accurate. Tikka is about the same, though i vaguely remember someone saying the varmint/supervarmint/tactical had to shoot under 1MOA to pass muster.

All the customs like GAP, LAC, TacOps, and high-end factories like AI, DTA and Sako TRG's will all guarantee under 1MOA.
GAP, for example, will guarantee their rifle to shoot under 3/8ths MOA with premium ammo or something.

Most customs will provide an accuracy guarantee.
Most factory will not, but may repair/replace a rifle that is woefully inaccurate.

 

[Beef82]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

Thompson Center guarantees most if not all their bolt guns to MOA, a couple models to 1/2MOA. I have no experience with them though, as the dealers here rarely have them, I would like to try one.

Virtually every manufacturer has a level of accuracy that they will repair/replace the rifle if it cannot meet, but its generally rather awful. In .308 most Remingtons and Savages will shoot MOA or better, but there's no guarantee

 

[lessthanfour]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

in my opinion the only reason to go with a .308 is if you dont reload. remington for aftermarket if you want to upgrade and takka/savage for out of the box accuracy(although remmy will most likely be a shooter also)

 

[calling4life]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

Look at savages 12 F/TR, if you want to know why, ask the savage comp. team and those that compete against them.

I went with the 10fcp myself, as I wanted a repeater for yotes.

 

[Michaelvoigt1]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

Before you can do any real shopping, it is necessary to know what you plan to do with this rifle.

If it for a fun gun with some local matches thrown in, a 308 would work fine. I would suggest that you can certainly up the performance of the 308 with minimal hassle by changing to a 6.5 Creedmoor. Better ballistics, less recoil and great accuracy.

The 300 Win Mag is a great cartridge of you want more "horsepower" when the bullet arrives. The downside is more gun weight, less barrel life and substantially more recoil compared to the 308 or 6.5 Creedmoor. Ammunition is approx 2x the 308.

The 338 Lapua is much more "power" at the target, much more weight and recoil. And factory ammunition is 6x the 308.

The Accuracy International rifles are incredible in every way for a factory rifle. They are available in many calibers. Durability, accuracy and support are legendary. They are expensive, and worth it.

Custom rifles give you many options, but you will need to know what you want, what components to choose and the right person to build it.

Just for example:
My 338 Lapua rifles are Accuracy International AX and a GA Precision/Bernosky custom in 338 Lapua. Reliability and accuracy are the key goals here.

My match bolt action rifles are an Accuracy International AIAW in 6.5 Creedmoore and a Surgeon in 243 by Carl Bernosky.

My hunting rifle is a custom Winchester M70 in 300 Win Mag and Maggie's hunting rifle is a custom Snowey Mountain 6.5 Creedmoor (amazing performance with GMX factory ammo).

My larger game hunting rifle is a Winchester M70 416 Rem Mag w/ McMillan stock. Cone bolt, original M70 trigger and several action tuning tricks for 101% reliability.

My Varmint rifles are an insanely accurate factory Remington 700 Varmint in 223 (sometimes you get lucky) and a Carl Bernosky custom Rem 700 in 243.

Lots of different calibers and rifles depending on the goals...
MV

 

[hessian]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

Check H.S. Precision's site. Guarantee 1/2 min. for 30 cal. and under. Their 338LM HTR . is used by Israel Defense. Alum. bed block is the original chassis which they pioneered as well composite stock. Entire rifle is made in house in about 4 months. Call Eric at Hendershots if you're in a hurry . He got me a HTR in 5 days.Cost is just about half of MacMillan. Action is Rem.clone w/mods . Rifling is cut. Options.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

This is great info. Please keep it coming to help me assemble a better picture of what I should be looking more into.

Right now, I would favor rifles that meet the following preferences (preferences, not cast in cement):

- Short overall length OR easily breaks down into 2 pieces plus optic, and reassembles with minimal effect on POA. (We live in an RV now, and looooong firearms are too unwieldy for both easy indoor handling and storage

- I handload, so I can get best accuracy and lower ammunition cost, but still would want the hand loaded cost (with amortized case costs) to be no more than maybe $1.50 per round, as I would consume 25 to 50 rounds per range session, and my budget has limits

- I handload on a Harrell turret press which I love for its precision. Could I go much larger than 308 without requiring a more substantial press? I only have room for ONE press in the RV.

- Short barrel life is a negative. I barrel life of 2500 rounds would turn me off unless the barrel is easily and inexpensively replaced.

- I am relatively recoil insensitive. I carry a 357 SIG auto pistol. I don't even notice the recoil on the 308 LMT MWSE I have. On the other hand, there ARE limits, as my 12 gauge Browning Citori Superlight that weighs a bit over 6 lb is painful too quickly, and while a 47 ounce s.s. 357 Magnum revolver is no issue, a 22 ounce one IS!

- Being an engineering physicist by training, I really like both great performance and great workmanship. A rifle that could not attain 0.5 to 0.7 MOA with patiently hand loaded ammunition would be disappointing. A bolt that isn't pretty smoooooth would be disappointing. I like things that clock together with minimized slop. Adjustability in the stock would be greatly appreciated. A wood stock would be a negative - I strongly prefer a material that is temperature and humidity stable, and won't break my heart with a chip in its finish if I accidentally bump something in the RV with it.

- In aesthetics, I tend to prefer a "military / LE" look to a "hunting" look

- Factory is preferred over custom, because I usually find a well-made factory product to be a better value than a custom-made product, unless you really need or want that last 5% of ultimate performance or fit, and can afford to pay for it and want to do so. I don't. I WOULD pay the premium for a $1200 handgun versus a $900 one, but from what I have seen and heard about good rifles, the differences between really good ones and superlative ones are measured in thousands, not hundreds of dollars. My income won't allow that.

- Since the LMT MWSE semi auto I already have is supposedly reliably good to 700 yards or more (once I learn to shoot it properly

), whatever bolt gun I get needs to be able to do better.

Why do I want one and what will I use it for? I love taking on projects that enable me to learn new things, I love maximizing precision (I shoot my handguns at 50 yards to make it more challenging), and I'll probably only use it for target shooting on 250 to 1000 yard range facilities. I don't hunt, so we don't need to worry about deer versus elk versus Kodiak bear capabilities. I want to shoot rifles that help me become a better and better marksman.

Does this help to narrow things down?

Jim G

 

[jrf]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

New guy and this is a great read so far...along with some other great threads on here. Have a feeling I'll be lurking for a few months...

J.R.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

I called Remington today to ask about accuracy guarantee on their production rifles. The guy I talked to said that Remington does not have a maximum group size for their production rifles. He also told me something to the effect that "It's a model 700 so it's going to be accurate". Like that was going to make me feel better.

It looks like Remington's Custom website has some of their models spec'd at 0.5" 3-shot groups.
http://www.remingtoncustom.com/TargetTactical_40xb.aspx

Looking at the Savage website, I found something that said their sporter barreled guns will shoot within 1.5" groups at 100 yd, and their heavy barreled guns will shoot 1" groups. (and Axis models better than 2" groups)

 

[JWV]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

Both tactical Rem 700's and Savage model 10 (etc) are capable of shooting sub 1 inch groups repeatedly. I have both and they do it repeatedly. Some hover around .7 and less on average. I have a factory savage hunter that nearly always shoots .75 inch groups. Just get the nice Rem or Savage and practice up until you can out shoot the rifle.

 

[Chili47]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is great info. Please keep it coming to help me assemble a better picture of what I should be looking more into.

Right now, I would favor rifles that meet the following preferences (preferences, not cast in cement):

- Short overall length OR easily breaks down into 2 pieces plus optic, and reassembles with minimal effect on POA. (We live in an RV now, and looooong firearms are too unwieldy for both easy indoor handling and storage

- I handload, so I can get best accuracy and lower ammunition cost, but still would want the hand loaded cost (with amortized case costs) to be no more than maybe $1.50 per round, as I would consume 25 to 50 rounds per range session, and my budget has limits

- I handload on a Harrell turret press which I love for its precision. Could I go much larger than 308 without requiring a more substantial press? I only have room for ONE press in the RV.

- Short barrel life is a negative. I barrel life of 2500 rounds would turn me off unless the barrel is easily and inexpensively replaced.

- I am relatively recoil insensitive. I carry a 357 SIG auto pistol. I don't even notice the recoil on the 308 LMT MWSE I have. On the other hand, there ARE limits, as my 12 gauge Browning Citori Superlight that weighs a bit over 6 lb is painful too quickly, and while a 47 ounce s.s. 357 Magnum revolver is no issue, a 22 ounce one IS!

- Being an engineering physicist by training, I really like both great performance and great workmanship. A rifle that could not attain 0.5 to 0.7 MOA with patiently hand loaded ammunition would be disappointing. A bolt that isn't pretty smoooooth would be disappointing. I like things that clock together with minimized slop. Adjustability in the stock would be greatly appreciated. A wood stock would be a negative - I strongly prefer a material that is temperature and humidity stable, and won't break my heart with a chip in its finish if I accidentally bump something in the RV with it.

- In aesthetics, I tend to prefer a "military / LE" look to a "hunting" look

- Factory is preferred over custom, because I usually find a well-made factory product to be a better value than a custom-made product, unless you really need or want that last 5% of ultimate performance or fit, and can afford to pay for it and want to do so. I don't. I WOULD pay the premium for a $1200 handgun versus a $900 one, but from what I have seen and heard about good rifles, the differences between really good ones and superlative ones are measured in thousands, not hundreds of dollars. My income won't allow that.

- Since the LMT MWSE semi auto I already have is supposedly reliably good to 700 yards or more (once I learn to shoot it properly

), whatever bolt gun I get needs to be able to do better.

Why do I want one and what will I use it for? I love taking on projects that enable me to learn new things, I love maximizing precision (I shoot my handguns at 50 yards to make it more challenging), and I'll probably only use it for target shooting on 250 to 1000 yard range facilities. I don't hunt, so we don't need to worry about deer versus elk versus Kodiak bear capabilities. I want to shoot rifles that help me become a better and better marksman.

Does this help to narrow things down?

Jim G </div></div>


if i were you i would ethier stick with the .308 with a muzzle brake, still going to have more kick than your ar. or a .243 with a muzzle brake, it will kick like a .22 great bullets available. Great round to learn on.

 

[steve123]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

http://www.eurooptic.com/sako-trg-22-rifles.aspx
"In 260 Remington"

Or a Accuracy International AE in the same cartridge.

There are trade offs. A 308 will get better barrel life but dismal ballistics.

260 will get less barrel life, blow less in the wind, have a flatter trajectory and have less recoil. Once you start shooting at the farther distances you'll begin to realize how hard it is to estimate wind drift. That's where having a 260 vs a 308 makes life easier.

If you want in excess of 2500 rounds in a 260 you'll need to shoot it at lower pressures or even consider getting the barrel melonited.

7-08 seems to be a good compromise concerning barrel life and enjoying less wind drift. Finding a good factory rifle in 7-08 is the problem.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.eurooptic.com/sako-trg-22-rifles.aspx
"In 260 Remington"

Or a Accuracy International AE in the same cartridge.

There are trade offs. A 308 will get better barrel life but dismal ballistics.

260 will get less barrel life, blow less in the wind, have a flatter trajectory and have less recoil. Once you start shooting at the farther distances you'll begin to realize how hard it is to estimate wind drift. That's where having a 260 vs a 308 makes life easier.

If you want in excess of 2500 rounds in a 260 you'll need to shoot it at lower pressures or even consider getting the barrel melonited.

7-08 seems to be a good compromise concerning barrel life and enjoying less wind drift. Finding a good factory rifle in 7-08 is the problem.



</div></div>

I see that you can attach a Picatinny rail.

1. Do you have to sue the Sako bipod, or can you successfully install an Atlas?

2. Do the Sako TRG rifles, and other brands and models of bolt action rifles, break down (barrel/action and stock) for easier storage and cleaning? (I live in an RV remember). Without that feature, they are, with 26" barrels, a little long for easy handling indoors.

3. Where is a rifle like the TRG 22 in terms of quality level compared to other brands /models?

4. Is maintenance as easy as I think it is: Clean the barrel/chamber/bolt housing, clean the bolt, clean the magazine? Anything else required?

Jim G

 

[steve123]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2946084#Post2946084 For the Atlas.

It's very easy to remove the whole rear stock on a TRG. Not sure on the AE? Although both are available with folding stocks. The TRG's folding stock is priced ridiculously high.

As far as weight is concerned TRG get mt vote. My TRG42 weighs 14.5lbs with scope. The TRG22 is 10.75 lbs without scope. The AE is heavier by about 4 lbs lbs.

I'd rate the quality the same but the AE is touted as a tougher rifle. The TRG is known as having the best trigger in a factory tactical rifle and preferable ergonomics. Seems like for the most part people hate the AI ergos or love them. I don't mind the AI stock just the weight.

Only regular maintenance required for both rifles.

You'd be very happy with either rifle. You can spend a lot more money but the returns on the purchase are diminished greatly.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

So it's perfectly feasible and practical to remove the stock each time I transport to the range and return home, and each time I clean and store the rifle?

Again, I am asking because I live full-time in an RV these days, and my car is a mustang. My LMT MWSE with collapsible stock and 16" barrel plus flashhider "fits" in both (26" long case), but anything longer is unwieldy in the RV and really tough in the car (trunk opening and trunk width are both small).

How long are the longest pieces on the AE and on the TRG when broken down?

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

That Atlas adaptor for the TRG looks fine and the price is acceptable.

Thanks for that link!

Jim G

 

[steve123]

Re: Please educate me on bolt rifle brands / models

I'd have to go out to the shop and measure my TRG. Off the top of my head 13" is close for the length of the rear stock assembly.

Not sure as far as taking apart the AE non folder.