My brother is considering the purchase of a POF Revolution piston AR10. How does this compare to other high end AR10? Cannot get over how light this rifle is. What are pros & cons of piston vs. DI for a gun like this?
- Thread starter MMH
- Start date
I've owned several piston POFs and sold them all. They were good shooters sometimes but inconsistent and POF are assholes to deal with if you have any problems.
The only 308 AR that I regret selling was my PWS mk214. It wasn't the most accurate or precise but it was relatively lightweight and the piston system flat out worked. Felt like shooting an AK. Otherwise I have had larue, dpms, ones I've built, larue was the best but none of them were worth keeping in the end.
The only 308 AR that I regret selling was my PWS mk214. It wasn't the most accurate or precise but it was relatively lightweight and the piston system flat out worked. Felt like shooting an AK. Otherwise I have had larue, dpms, ones I've built, larue was the best but none of them were worth keeping in the end.
POF sucks IMHO. The rifles I had were fine, periodically but only one ran reliably. POF provided virtually zero support. They refused to sell me a replacement barrel for the crappy one they sent me (proprietary) and the current wait time for repair was almost a freaking year. Also, refused to swap out the upper.
No it is not. He has not bought it yet and asked me for an opinion. My initial responce to him was for that kind of money go w/ something tried & true like Larue, GA Precision, etc.
I just got one back from having it Re-barreled. Took 2months in shipping.
After explaining to them the issue they sent me an rma # but would not send me a shipping label for the return and local shipping companies would not send a rifle. The shipping companies were telling me the manufacturer needs to send the shipping label and it would be no problem. Trying to get them to do that was like pulling teeth. I went to a local gunsmith with an FFL and she dealt with it for me and had them send the label it shipped for free. So in the end, they did honor the warranty and re-barreled a gun with over 5000 rounds on it under warranty. But imo it was more of a hassle than it should have been.
I purchased a few other small parts just to have some extra and also had to warrantied the trigger. That was no issue eveything went smooth and they where a pleasure to deal with.
Dealing with the barrel issue/return was a freaking headache, unnecessarily so in my opinion, but in the end tbey did honor the warranty. Being that parts for these are proprietary you are stuck using them as a source. Given that, it sucks that they won’t sell barrels because if they go out of business... you cant get parts and cant buy a spare. Imo, they need to address that.
Pros-
-I like the way it shoots.
-The lighter bolt (ar-15 sized)has a light recoil impulse.
-Fully ambidextrous lower is nice too.
-I like the gun
Cons
-The lighter bolt which softens the recoil impulse is also questionable in longevity. The issue I had with mine was the headspace opened up and it went from being an accurate gun to throwing flyers, again this was around 5000 rounds down the pipe though.
-The proprietary issues is a big one, they need to offer all parts for sale.
- It was a headache to get a shipping label for the return.
- The logistics of maintaining it are the issue
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I have the DI version and it's been nothing but reliable and my favorite gun to shoot overall. Seems to eat everything without a problem but does like bullets in the 147 to 167 grain range. I haven't tried anything lighter. I've been able to get sub-MOA out of it and as you noted, it's surprisingly light with a remarkably manageable recoil impulse. The gas block is easily adjustable and the lower is full ambi and just really nicely made. Trigger is great too. I get others have had issues, I haven't been one of them.
I have not had to deal with their customer service or warranty dept. and have been able to get backup parts just in case anything fails or wears out. These days, seems there are horror stories with every make and model. I do believe the DI version is a bit more accurate overall at distance than the piston version but I'd personally love to own the 12.5" piston upper and SBR the rifle. The only downside is almost everything is proprietary on it and if you're a modaholic like me, there's not much you can change.
I have not had to deal with their customer service or warranty dept. and have been able to get backup parts just in case anything fails or wears out. These days, seems there are horror stories with every make and model. I do believe the DI version is a bit more accurate overall at distance than the piston version but I'd personally love to own the 12.5" piston upper and SBR the rifle. The only downside is almost everything is proprietary on it and if you're a modaholic like me, there's not much you can change.
I have POF Rogue 16.5", and so far I've swapped out:
- handguard + barrel nut (handguard anti-rotation tabs even fit perfectly on upper)
- muzzle device (it is 5/8x24RH threaded)
- pistol grip
- charging handle
- ambi safety right side lever (interchangeable with BAD-ASS levers)
- mag catch (using a Norgon AR15 ambi catch)
- recoil buffer (went to an AR15 H2)
- buttstock
I guess there is a lot of proprietary stuff happening with the BCG, but there are tons of AR15 standard parts on my Rogue.
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Looks great! POF does say there are numerous parts that are interchangeable with an AR15 like the ones you mentioned above and even drop-in triggers. But many are proprietary. Even the take down pins are proprietary to POF and don't match anything else out there. It's tough to drop weight and not loose some functionality of the original design like the finned barrel nut (and the barrel extension itself).
I have a handful of non-POF parts on mine but didn't want to change the hand guard and loose the finned barrel nut. Being a Revolution, it's already ambi and all the bits are quality. I tried to swap in a Smoke Composite buffer tube and it's half an inch too short.
So far I have the following:
-Smoke Composites carbon pistol grip
-VSeven Ti castle nut
-OSS muzzle brake (suppressor mount)
The only thing I have left to change is the charging handle and going with a "gas buster" handle which I'm not sure makes much of a difference over a standard handle. Have it on two other rifles but do like the ergonomics. Haven't wanted to change out anything else but mostly due to parts either not fitting or loosing function.
I have a handful of non-POF parts on mine but didn't want to change the hand guard and loose the finned barrel nut. Being a Revolution, it's already ambi and all the bits are quality. I tried to swap in a Smoke Composite buffer tube and it's half an inch too short.
So far I have the following:
-Smoke Composites carbon pistol grip
-VSeven Ti castle nut
-OSS muzzle brake (suppressor mount)
The only thing I have left to change is the charging handle and going with a "gas buster" handle which I'm not sure makes much of a difference over a standard handle. Have it on two other rifles but do like the ergonomics. Haven't wanted to change out anything else but mostly due to parts either not fitting or loosing function.
Figured I'd keep the POF questions over here. How has the accuracy been? How is the recoil impulse compared to a full size AR308? I'm looking for a reasonable mix of accuracy and shootability...and reliability.
Accuracy has been pretty exceptional with my hand loads. It was ok with things like PMC bronze but I don't really shoot factory ammo much and didn't try various brands/loads.
Recoil impulse will depend on the load of course but you can pretty much stay on target with it. People always describe it as a hot 5.56 load and I'd describe it as a really hot 5.56 load depending on what you're shooting. I've not had the chance to shoot it against a large frame AR but I'd imagine the extra weight, from a bench position, would be beneficial. But I find it remarkably easy to shoot. I have a Sig Cross bolt gun which is about the same weight, same caliber, and it's far more difficult to shoot (at least for me) well than the POF.
Reliability wise, I had one small issue with the pivot pin on the left side ambidextrous mag release worked its way out. Right side mag release still worked just fine and it was a $3 part available on their website. It tends to be hard on brass as well but not overtly so. I'm about 3500 rounds in at this point.
Recoil impulse will depend on the load of course but you can pretty much stay on target with it. People always describe it as a hot 5.56 load and I'd describe it as a really hot 5.56 load depending on what you're shooting. I've not had the chance to shoot it against a large frame AR but I'd imagine the extra weight, from a bench position, would be beneficial. But I find it remarkably easy to shoot. I have a Sig Cross bolt gun which is about the same weight, same caliber, and it's far more difficult to shoot (at least for me) well than the POF.
Reliability wise, I had one small issue with the pivot pin on the left side ambidextrous mag release worked its way out. Right side mag release still worked just fine and it was a $3 part available on their website. It tends to be hard on brass as well but not overtly so. I'm about 3500 rounds in at this point.
Can you share experience with Burris?
The JP is $1K more dear and they don't list the weight meaning it's probably 8+ pounds.if accuracy is key, i'd go jp lrp-07 for di and scar 20s for piston.
sorry about that. accuracy and lightness are often antithetical to each other. i think it is 11+
Ok so completely different mission.
I have a POF P308 with a 14.5” barrel and factory pinned brake. I took it to a 800-yard class and it performed flawlessly, and was dead nuts accurate, which surprised the hell out of the instructors, because I was the only one who brought a gas gun. Everyone else showed up with their AI’s and TacOps. We were all very impressed with how well it performed, and it didn’t skip a beat with Hornady factory ammo.
That said, it is a VERY finicky gun and jams frequently depending upon ammo used. It has been frustrating.
That said, it is a VERY finicky gun and jams frequently depending upon ammo used. It has been frustrating.
Curious, does the 308 version have the E squared chamber like the Revolution/Rogue? Not sure when that was introduced in their lineup. I've literally never had a feed/ejection issue with mine for any factory or hand-loaded cartridges. I did move to a heavier buffer recently to try and preserve the brass better but it always runs regardless. So much so it makes me wish ammo was a lot less expensive.
On the accuracy thing, I don't have any local ranges longer than 300 yards and I have no problem hitting a 10" reactive target at that distance. It's proven to be sub-MOA with a good hand load. Hell, my "plinker" load consisting of Hornady 150 grain HPBT's over 4046 is sub MOA. With a 3-18 scope AND a suppressor, it's still lighter than the JP. Without a doubt, going to the nth degree, I'm sure it's possible to make a more precise barrel but diminishing returns.
On the accuracy thing, I don't have any local ranges longer than 300 yards and I have no problem hitting a 10" reactive target at that distance. It's proven to be sub-MOA with a good hand load. Hell, my "plinker" load consisting of Hornady 150 grain HPBT's over 4046 is sub MOA. With a 3-18 scope AND a suppressor, it's still lighter than the JP. Without a doubt, going to the nth degree, I'm sure it's possible to make a more precise barrel but diminishing returns.
POF Revolution owners past and/or present. Does the barrel move or does the barrel nut hold the barrel securely in place? I ask because the Military Arms Channel claims that the Revolution accuracy depends on if you "bear down" on the gun or not. His statement starts at the 16:30 mark during his video "Expensive vs. Inexpensive: POF Revolution DI vs. Sig 716i" where he says accuracy will vary on how the rifle is held. Any thoughts on this?
Lol, obviously the barrel cannot move or you are seriously fucked.
He is referring to the general technique of shooting any semi auto rifle with precision. ARs have a longer lock time vs bolt guns as well as a more complex recoil impulse. You need to have much better follow through and consistent tension on the gun during/after firing to achieve consistent accuracy, when compared to a bolt gun.
Describing that as "bearing down" on the gun is a reasonable way to put it to the average youtube viewer who is not a serious shooter.
He is referring to the general technique of shooting any semi auto rifle with precision. ARs have a longer lock time vs bolt guns as well as a more complex recoil impulse. You need to have much better follow through and consistent tension on the gun during/after firing to achieve consistent accuracy, when compared to a bolt gun.
Describing that as "bearing down" on the gun is a reasonable way to put it to the average youtube viewer who is not a serious shooter.
First, are you a POF Revolution owner? Second, you clearly didn't see the barrel move in the video. I wanted comments from Revolution owners who have handling experience and can speak about the author's statement that the barrel can move which causes accuracy inconsistencies.
Very few, if any, will search out a video from a post like yours. If you link the video, you might get some to watch. I'll help you out on this one.
Ok I watched the video, and no I do not have a revolution.
You can move any FF AR barrel in that same way, though perhaps not to that degree. I do not believe that has much to do with the barrel nut tightness or fitment.
That has nothing to do with a POI or precision shift if you "bear down" on the gun when firing. Again, that is the case with any gas gun. It is exacerbated by being a .308 and im sure also exacerbated by the gun being lightweight.
On a related note I consider enough clearence between gas block and HG such that the gas block cannot contact the HG if force is applied to the barrel to be pretty much a must-have feature on a serious use rifle.
You can move any FF AR barrel in that same way, though perhaps not to that degree. I do not believe that has much to do with the barrel nut tightness or fitment.
That has nothing to do with a POI or precision shift if you "bear down" on the gun when firing. Again, that is the case with any gas gun. It is exacerbated by being a .308 and im sure also exacerbated by the gun being lightweight.
On a related note I consider enough clearence between gas block and HG such that the gas block cannot contact the HG if force is applied to the barrel to be pretty much a must-have feature on a serious use rifle.
Thanks for you input. I live near Raleigh, NC and no gun stores in my area carry the POF Revolution. Two stores are POF "Black Label Dealers" and they don't even stock one. Now, I like POF's innovations, but I'm reluctant to purchase a rifle that I can't get my hands on first.
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