Pope Death Watch... WITH A PRIZE!!! Quart of Maple Syrup to the winner!

[cgbills]

I am going to give an analogy here for the Trinity. Almost always these types of things are actually the modalism heresy. Like the water being liquid, solid, gas is actually modalism. It is modalism because it is one thing taking 3 forms, and each of the three states is not fully the water in every way. This is not the right understanding of the trinity. The trinity rightly understood is one God having 3 persons, all equally God and fully God, yet distinct from each other.


However this is maybe the closest analogy I have come across using human terms.

Image a dry erase board. You grab three dry erase pens of Red, Green, and blue. Now you perfect draw a red circle on top of a green circle, on top of a blue circle. Now you have all three colors making one perfect circle, however the red circle is not the green or blue circle, the green circle is not the red or blue circle, and the blue circle is not the red or green circle. However, each individual colored circle is perfectly the circle. The red circle is the circle, the green is the circle, and the blue is the circle. Also too all three together are the circle

Obviously there are some problems , like wouldn’t the colors mix? But this is the closest analogy to the trinity I have found using material ideas.

 

[cgbills]

Easy to answer. Daniel was seeing not just into the spirit world, he was seeing into the future. Of the beasts he saw we know that one was Alexander the Great and so on. The ancient of days he saw was obviously God. He also saw the son of man which is obviously a man, and that is the Man Christ Jesus. Not duality. He saw God and he saw the flesh that God would put on to save us. Read revelation 1. John describes the same thing as Daniel but calls it the Son of man. When we get to heaven we will see God. He will be sitting by himself on ONE throne. He will have scars in His hands, feet, and brow. And we will bow down and worship him.

But that is not how Daniel reads. And I am not worried about the prophetic part. I want you to read it carefully and pay attention to the context. Specifically this:

““I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7‬:‭13‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/dan.7.13.ESV

There is a fixed scene, it is a throne room. It is not seeing the same person just in the past then in the future like you said. It is not seeing God, then seeing the flesh in the future. This is happening all in one moment, this is import. You have the Son of Man come to the Ancient of Days and he is presented before. Then you have the Ancient of Days giving the Son of Man all of his power glory and dominion.

There are two distinct people here, this is happening in the same moment. How could God be presented before himself if he does not have distinct persons? How could God give something to himself, if he does not have distinct persons? If this was a vision of God with no persons, it would just be the ancient of days going down and become the Son of Man, that is not what is happening. Here The Son of Man is not the Ancient of Days, and The Ancient of Days is not the Son of Man, yet both are given attributes of God.

Additionally, the long standing understanding of this verse in the early church was these were two distinct persons yet one God. So your argument falls flat linguistically (again) as well as historically (again).

You always have this problem when you try to apply the modalism heresy to scripture the New Testament there are numerous examples that show Jesus interacting with the Father even Praying to Him. Why would Jesus be praying to himself. When he is dying on the cross, why would he call out to Himself, ABBA Father. I will go more into one specific verse deeper because it was used to refute the modalism (sebalianism) heresy by Origen and others in the 100s (yes way before Nicea, way before Constantine this heresy was handled with Trinitarian thought straight from the Bible)

Please answer also to the Garden before his crucifixion.

“When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you,” John 17:1
‭‭
Jesus isn’t praying to himself. Why would he ask himself (father) to glorify himself (son) in turn so he could glorify himself (son)

“And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17‬:‭5‬ ‭

Jesus is very clearly not talking about his own presence, he is asking to be glorified in someone else’s presence (the Father). This point is super clear in Greek by the way it is conjugated, but it is also plain in English. If Jesus is praying to himself, why would he be asking to be in someone else’s presence?

I could go on and on, but go read all of John 17 and Jesus prayer here to the Father. The distinct persons here are self evident in English, but in the Greek it is even clearer and linguistically impossible (as well as logically impossible) for Jesus to be praying to himself.

The fact is your position is the one that goes against the plain reading of scripture.

 

[CaptNkllm]

Possibly Melchizedek “ Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life”. Who could that be since no man has seen God the Father?

Also here in Daniel
“ Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.

He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God”

GOD was in there with them... Again God didnt have a body so How was he in a body and how was he seen? a

Old Testament evidence of the Trinity

In psalm 110 David said:

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Talking about the Right hand or the Strength of God Which is Jesus Christ and the Only Body

The Holy Ghost as part of the Godhead is described in 1 John 5-7
""For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Yes and the are all the Same Person.. Jesus.. One Body and One Spirit...

Romans 10 9
“ That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”.
God the Son died on the cross and God the Father raised him from the dead.

Also in Mathew 11 Jesus said

“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son“

No again.. There is Only One Lord that is through all and in you all.. Jesus is presented as the ultimate High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. This is to Show us to Christ.


The Door is Jesus ( way into Heaven) through his blood which is tied to his name JESUS. Through the NAme the Water is Turned into the Blood through Baptism.

HEnce the Name, Blood and The Godhead.. Unless you believe that he is The I AM then you will die in your sins.. Old Testament I AM is the God almighty in the Old Testament and the Flesh in the New Testament

 

[mtrmn]

GOD was in there with them... Again God didnt have a body so How was he in a body and how was he seen? a

Talking about the Right hand or the Strength of God Which is Jesus Christ and the Only Body

Yes and the are all the Same Person.. Jesus.. One Body and One Spirit...



No again.. There is Only One Lord that is through all and in you all.. Jesus is presented as the ultimate High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. This is to Show us to Christ.


The Door is Jesus ( way into Heaven) through his blood which is tied to his name JESUS. Through the NAme the Water is Turned into the Blood through Baptism.

HEnce the Name, Blood and The Godhead.. Unless you believe that he is The I AM then you will die in your sins.. Old Testament I AM is the God almighty in the Old Testament and the Flesh in the New Testament

You are actually trying to convince us that the same GOD that created this entire universe and everything in it is totally incapable of manifesting himself in 3 different but equal persons. You're dumber than a Democrat. Or a troll.

 

[cgbills]

Unless you believe that he is The I AM then you will die in your sins.. Old Testament I AM is the God almighty in the Old Testament and the Flesh in the New Testament

This leads me to believe, again that you do not understand the trinity. Trinitarians do believe Jesus is the great I AM, for he even says it “before Abraham was, I AM”

In the OT the I AM is YHWH in Hebrew BTW. As with most understandings of the OT, we are not fully told what they all mean and they are Veiled. Then we have Jesus come along and show us, he builds on the Two Powers in Heaven and shows more fully how it works, as a Trinity.

Just like you Trinitarians believe Jesus is fully God, the Father is fully God, and The Spirit is fully God. We believe that Father, Son, and Spirit are all one God; so we believe the shema in Deuteronomy that you have quoted many times. (Arians or JWs are the ones that believe Jesus isn’t God) So by your salvation metric above, we as trinitarians are good to go

We just believe as the NT and Church history shows that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all distinct persons based on what role they play in salvation and how they relate to each other. The Father is not the Son or Spirit, but is fully God. The Son is not the Father or Spirit but is fully God. The Spirit is not the Father or Son, but is fully God.

Part of the problem is you do not understand what trinitarians are saying and you misrepresent/strawman what we do believe. Despite what you say, we do not believe in 3 gods, but only one. And despite what you say we do believe the Jesus is the only way onto salvation. That is why so much of your ranting and raving is dismissed, because sometimes you say things we agree with. The central issue is if the Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct persons based on their relationship with each other.

I would like for you to address what was said above about Daniel again, but more importantly John 17 and Jesus prayer:

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you,” John 17:1
‭‭
Jesus isn’t praying to himself. Why would he ask himself (father) to glorify himself (son) in turn so he could glorify himself (son)

“And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17‬:‭5‬ ‭

Jesus is very clearly not talking about his own presence, he is asking to be glorified in someone else’s presence (the Father). This point is super clear in Greek by the way it is conjugated, but it is also plain in English. If Jesus is praying to himself, why would he be asking to be in someone else’s presence?