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Portable generators-Help

leprechaun

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 18, 2007
625
7
I'm tired of being without power.This last storm did it.I want to get a 8,000 watt portable generator.Was looking at the Generac and Rigid ones.Briggs and Stratton may also be ok. I don't know much about generators so I am looking for help on what Brand/model to get and where to get the best pricing.

Thanks
Lep
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

First you need to figure out what exactly you want to run on it and for how long.

If you're looking to power your fridge, tv, a few lamps and radio then you might not need something so big. If you want heat, well pump, sump pump a few rooms powered, some outside lights then you're going to need more power.

Have you thought about a transfer switch? Those take the hassle out of using the generator with extension cords and having to plug and unplug stuff.

Take a look at the Generac website, some very useful information on the different types of generators and their applications.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

Remember when using a single phase, rope start, 3600rpm, fly-a-part, any power factor other than unity drops, the units full load rating like a rock.

Like many other things in life, buy, an cry once.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

You should also look at what kind of fuel you want to run. I have been eyeing a multi-fuel honda. You can get them to run on propane,natural gas, regular unleaded etc. I have a 2000w honda that will run quite a few things and can be started with a pull start. Once you start getting into the larger generators you will have to deal with electric start so you will have to do regular inspections on the battery.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: leprechaun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm tired of being without power.This last storm did it.I want to get a 8,000 watt portable generator.Was looking at the Generac and Rigid ones.Briggs and Stratton may also be ok. I don't know much about generators so I am looking for help on what Brand/model to get and where to get the best pricing.

Thanks
Lep </div></div>

What are you going to run?

The smallest generator I have is a 10 KW and it will run quite a bit on a house.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

We had a 7 day power outage back in late 2006 right after Thanksgiving due to ice. I said never again and bought this.

http://www.generac.com/Residential/Guardian/Products/Guardian_Series_17_kW/

It cost me right at 3k to get it shipped to my drive. I spent a good day setting it up and wiring in the transfer switch. My additional costs were a new battery and $100 for a licensed hvac guy to tie it in to the natural gas supply. We do not have power outages any more.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

Having retired from Power generation, I've never understood how folks can justify, not, having a quality whole house unit, myself.
They have Boats, Planes, Jet toys, $6k+ in one gun, or $20K+ in their hobby, but will not spend a dime on their family's safety.

I know I'm odd, but I have levels, of backup power, as my familys safety an comfort, comes first. Putting your family's safety an well being, solely into the hands of a power company, is the same as trusting any public entity.
You are your family's last line of defense, choose wisely.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

The price of a portable is not much less than a fixed propane unit. Propane gas never goes bad...

Look into the GE home generators 13kv - would run your house..comes with a free xfer switch...and electrician should be able to install for $200. I just did a 15kv and it cost me about $3300...

Briggs & stratton makes a great engine..the GE units have B&S engines.
Beware of Generac - they pay immense amounts of money for marketing but they have the units built by the cheapest bidder....thats why they switch engines every other year...and apparently they pay warranty very crappy so most retailers will not hurry to come and fix them should an issue occur.
Source the generator yourself and have it installed by you - no markup on the labor.
smile.gif

Good luck.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

Katrina cured me. I had a 13,000 portable generator during that hurricane. (I don't remember the brand name--Generac, Powermate, Honda--it's out on loan now). I ran a single fan and the refrigerator and 2 freezers for 3 days before I ran out of gasoline. I had 30 gallons of gasoline but I had never used the generator for any length of time before the storm. Thus, I had no experience on my electrical requirements, nor the gasoline consumption rate. Addtionally, I didn't know how long to run the generator to keep the freezers freezing. Internet advice was 50%, so I ran it 3hr on, 3hr off for the entire 4 days before I ran out of gas. That's 30 gallons for 36 hours. We didn't get power back for 3 more days, and the gas station pumps weren't working for that entire time (they're electric, of course). Obviously all the food thawed. We were miserable in the heat after the hurricane. (it sucks the moisture right out of the air, and it was very hot after the hurricane--high 80s to low 90s at night--TOUGH to sleep.)

Now I've got a 20Kw Generac. I runs like a champ except for one BIG problem--there's a built-in trickle charger meant to keep the battery fully charged, and it's built into the motherboard. The goddamn trickle charger-electronics part of the board is probably made in China. That charging portion of the board has died 3x, and because of that, the battery has died three times--fully drained dead--I needed a new battery. Obviously, with a dead battery, the generator is useless.

The electrician has come back to service the generator each time. The process is arduous--in order to service it under warranty, he must get verbal approval from a factory representative over the phone--who checks his onsite work through what we presume is a flow chart. When my the trickle charger portion of the board was confirmed by the factory rep to be faulty (and inadvertantly, my electrician's work was approved as correct and confirmed) only then will Generac authorize an R&R of the motherboard. The removal and replacement process takes a full week at the least--7 business days minimally. We were fortunate not to have any outages during the two separate weeks we were without the replacement motherboards. I was pissed off enough as it was.

The third time it went out, I convinced the electrician to rewire the generator so we could circumvent the trickle-portion of the mother board. There's a pair of wires that run to the external power outlet on the side of the generator. The generator's wiring is designed to power an external, separate ("you provide") power cord when power is out--and ONLY when power is out. We don't understand it--why not set up the plug so it'll run all the time, power out or not? My electrician rewired the plug so it will run when the power is ON, too. With the outlet functioning, I run a <span style="font-style: italic">separate </span>battery trickle charger off the plug and to the battery.

Chink-made trickle-charger-problem solved. NOW the Generac is a good generator, and I haven't needed the electrician's help in about a year. We've had 8-9 outages in that time and the computers and our air conditioner don't even hiccup during the switchover.

 
Re: Portable generators-Help

what would be the feasability of getting a couple smaller sized generators,say 3,500 each, and wiring them in sequence so either one or both could provide power.One 3,500 would handle minor electrical needs but together 7000 would handle additional load.Maybe the 7000 watt # is already to low,but at least if one generator took a dump or you had to stretch the gas.I have always been concerned about a back up electrical source,i have checked out the Generacs as well.Anyone with an electrical background?
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

That can be done but it's a waste of time an money. Any unit that can be bought in a big box store is also a waste unless it says Honda on it. Great marketing an cheap front money, does not insure quality, or that qualified service personnel with a parts stock are close by.

Anything 3600 RPM, is a KW vs dollar cost unit, from the drawing board. Onan learned that lesson long ago with their Tech-Star line. Kohler an others went down the same path, while Gen a junk is 100% price driven.
When your world has gone to shit an your family's well being an safety is on the line, saving a few bucks on the front end is a very poor choice.

The first choice to make when buying a backup unit is what type of fuel can I get when my whole A/O is w/o power. Do your normal fuel stations have backup power?
A duel or tri-fuel gas unit, is a good choice. Natural Gas as the primary then fall back to your propane tank, as a secondary on site supply, then lastly gasoline as last resort for that unit.
A Diesel engine machine will not require near as much fuel to be stored for the same run time as a gas unit but there are trade offs with everything. Some Diesel supply trucks like Some Propane trucks do not require Utility power to fill them, so they can deliver to you as long as your roads are not blocked. Then again I keep 15-20 gallons of gasoline for the chain saws alone, as I have used as much as 10, (3 chains an a bar also) one time long ago after a blow down just to get to a hard road.


When help is in the same boat, that few bucks you saved up front an not planning, may be the difference between you/r family's well being, or being like the rest of the sheep.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrassy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what would be the feasability of getting a couple smaller sized generators,say 3,500 each, and wiring them in sequence so either one or both could provide power.One 3,500 would handle minor electrical needs but together 7000 would handle additional load.Maybe the 7000 watt # is already to low,but at least if one generator took a dump or you had to stretch the gas.I have always been concerned about a back up electrical source,i have checked out the Generacs as well.Anyone with an electrical background? </div></div>

You really need to talk to an expert about this, preferrably someone who is licensed.

2 3.5 KW generators would use more fule than 1 7 KW generator.

generators are typically sized with what is called a day tank, meaning they hold enough fuel to run the generator at full load for 24 hours, a generator should not be run at full load for that long and the ones you are most likely looking at are not continuous duty rated.

if you have a 10gallon fuel tank, it will need to be refilled evry day, so if you want to run it for 7 days, you need 70 gallons of fuel.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

A "Day Tank" is a fuel holding device that is fed via it's demand level switch's, from a fuel storage tank. Portable generators do not have "Day Tanks" they have fuel holding tanks.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

When buying a generator you need to do your research. First of all the wattage is not what you need to be concerned about. You need to be concerned about how many amps. the generator puts out.

Your different appliances are going to need a certain amount of amperage to run them. If you don't supply enough amperage then you will burn up the motors of your appliances.

So add up all the amperage you want to run at any one time. Then buy a generator that supplies the amperage you will need.

It will suprise you when a low wattage Honda puts out more amperage than a high wattage cheaper model. Pay attention.

I have two Honda Generators. One is over 30 years old and starts on the second pull. I will bet you on that. We used them for a long time, and they have served us well. I just wish you could buy an American made product as good.

We just finished putting in a full propane generator system at the farm house. It really is the way to go. But cost is expensive. I have a friend who is an electrician. We went with a Nissan unit. And I have $6,500 in the whole system. But that is the breakers and everything. So everythng works automatically. I also put a remote control on the unit so we cn turn it off and on at night when we want to conserve propane. Tom.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

My father gave me a 'well-used' Yamaha YG2800i generator from his business a while back, and during an ice storm a couple years ago I powered my refrigerator, entertainment center power strip (TV/cable/internet/lights/laptop & cell charger) and two ceramic heaters going full blast.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Yamaha over a Generac or similar "big-box" generator; I believe they are on par with Honda although Honda does make the best small engines in the world IMO.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A "Day Tank" is a fuel holding device that is fed via it's demand level switch's, from a fuel storage tank. Portable generators do not have "Day Tanks" they have fuel holding tanks.
</div></div>

I have heard them referred to as day tanks, since they hold a days (24 hours) worth of fuel.

either way a storage tank on a generator is sized to where it will run about 24 hours at full load.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That can be done but it's a waste of time an money. Any unit that can be bought in a big box store is also a waste unless it says Honda on it. Great marketing an cheap front money, does not insure quality, or that qualified service personnel with a parts stock are close by.

Anything 3600 RPM, is a KW vs dollar cost unit, from the drawing board. Onan learned that lesson long ago with their Tech-Star line. Kohler an others went down the same path, while Gen a junk is 100% price driven.
When your world has gone to shit an your family's well being an safety is on the line, saving a few bucks on the front end is a very poor choice.

The first choice to make when buying a backup unit is what type of fuel can I get when my whole A/O is w/o power. Do your normal fuel stations have backup power?
A duel or tri-fuel gas unit, is a good choice. Natural Gas as the primary then fall back to your propane tank, as a secondary on site supply, then lastly gasoline as last resort for that unit.
A Diesel engine machine will not require near as much fuel to be stored for the same run time as a gas unit but there are trade offs with everything. Some Diesel supply trucks like Some Propane trucks do not require Utility power to fill them, so they can deliver to you as long as your roads are not blocked. Then again I keep 15-20 gallons of gasoline for the chain saws alone, as I have used as much as 10, (3 chains an a bar also) one time long ago after a blow down just to get to a hard road.


When help is in the same boat, that few bucks you saved up front an not planning, may be the difference between you/r family's well being, or being like the rest of the sheep. </div></div>

Do you have brand or model you prefer?
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bgbill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have heard them referred to as day tanks, since they hold a days (24 hours) worth of fuel.
either way a storage tank on a generator is sized to where it will run about 24 hours at full load. </div></div>
99% Incorrect, an that is based on 40+ years of Power Generation experience.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KJMOC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have brand or model you prefer? </div></div>
Need your spec's or what you want it to do?
Portable or stationary?
KW, or KVA if 3 phase
Type of prime mover cooling, Speed, Voltage, Fuel/s, dB(A)level ect.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bgbill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a Mobile Magnum, but it is kind of big for a house, the Mobile Magnum is a continuous duty and runs at 1800 RPM.</div></div>
All generators are rated continuous, only limiting factor is rear bearing rating. B-1's are 10,000hr rated, others are longer with a few shorter based on environment or if it has a marine rating.

There is a difference between Standby an Prime power, or Prime with a Utility rating. Then you have temp rise ie, what stator temp rise over what ambient?
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bgbill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a Mobile Magnum, but it is kind of big for a house, the Mobile Magnum is a continuous duty and runs at 1800 RPM.</div></div>
All generators are rated continuous, only limiting factor is rear bearing rating. B-1's are 10,000hr rated, others are longer with a few shorter based on environment or if it has a marine rating.

There is a difference between Standby an Prime power, or Prime with a Utility rating. Then you have temp rise ie, what stator temp rise over what ambient? </div></div>

The ones you buy at a home center's and most smaller ones are not rated for continuous duty.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bgbill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The ones you buy at a home center's and most smaller ones are not rated for continuous duty. </div></div>

I believe you will find, the ruling body for power generation which is (EGSA) - might differ with you.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

I got one fer ya gunfighter. I got a generac pto driven "tractor" 60kw surge 30kw continuious alternator "generator".when I engauge the pto on the tractor the generator is getting bad about not picking up and charging. I have to start and stop it several times for it to start output. Its gota volt meter on the front you engauge pto and when it starts producing voltage you bring rpm's up into the green operating zone and your gtg.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

Gunfighter thanks for the info,i figured a multiple fuel capability would be the way to go,most units i have seen that have that option are more than capable of handling the amount of juice i would need,as you said,buy once,cry once.But then that puts me in the money range to start evaluating wind generators,I have seen a few of those at Northern Hydraulics,but again i think they are "Generac level" pieces of equipment.Have you had any experience with those?
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: procovert45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got one fer ya gunfighter. I got a generac pto driven "tractor" 60kw surge 30kw continuious alternator "generator".when I engauge the pto on the tractor the generator is getting bad about not picking up and charging. I have to start and stop it several times for it to start output. Its gota volt meter on the front you engage pto and when it starts producing voltage you bring rpm's up into the green operating zone and your gtg. </div></div>

Have you checked it with a separate voltage meter, or are you just going by the units meter. Sounds like a bad conection, or the unit is losing it's stopped, residual voltage which can happen with some units. Re-flashing the fields with DC voltage sometimes corrects this, depending on the separator (lamination)metal quality.
Also please tell me you are starting the generator w/o load, then closing the Breaker or then transferring your transfer switch.
All generators have a full load rating an a inrush rating. Depending on the unit an how it's made the inrush rating can be as low as 105% of rated for a few mil sec, to as high as 350% for a few seconds to spool a motor up to speed but, only once they are at or near rated speed. Only units that will start loads, from a stopped generator state are PMG voltage regulator excited, or open loop battery excited machines. Closed loop internally excited machines are fair, with compound shunts a little better, Compound boost next, then PMG , an open loop static battery, the top dog.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrassy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gunfighter thanks for the info,i figured a multiple fuel capability would be the way to go,most units i have seen that have that option are more than capable of handling the amount of juice i would need,as you said,buy once,cry once.But then that puts me in the money range to start evaluating wind generators,I have seen a few of those at Northern Hydraulics,but again i think they are "Generac level" pieces of equipment.Have you had any experience with those? </div></div>
I do but tend to stay away from them.
Only small units I'll own are the "Red" Honda's. The Black ones, were built to compete with B&S.
Once you get into whole house units the field opens up somewhat. Even then don't choose anything 3600rpm. Stay at 1800, but if your wallet will stand it, drop to 1200 or 900rpm machines, way more money, but bullet proof units an the prime mover heat rate is so much better.

Lastly, never ever buy a unit that requires a computer for programing, or operation. Lighting an those types of units shake hands often, not bad if your selling, but sucks if your on the other end,....
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

I have been wanting a good portable generator for awhile. Crap I live in Oakland.

I went down to a repair shop last week to pick up a new in the box Honda EB5000. When I got there I shit you not. This was a typical China made small generator with Honda paint job and Honda stickers on it. The shop owner tried to play dumb but when I commented that Honda weighs over 200 lbs and this generator was closer to 75lbs, he finally admitted it was not a "True Honda"

Back to shopping
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I went down to a repair shop last week to pick up a new in the box Honda EB5000. When I got there I shit you not. This was a typical China made small generator with Honda paint job and Honda stickers on it. The shop owner tried to play dumb but when I commented that Honda weighs over 200 lbs and this generator was closer to 75lbs, he finally admitted it was not a "True Honda"</div></div>

So...the owner was trying to sell you a counterfeit?

That should warrant a call to the BBB and Honda Power Equipment, if not also law enforcement.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

There is no good case here. The guy played the language barrier thing well enough to say it was all a misunderstanding.

In LE there is what you know and what a jury will believe as absolute truth. Thats what around 30 years LE taught me.

I did make a call because I saw lots of fire code violations. Trust me that will cost him a bunch more

I only bring it here because this may be a new trend like the fake name brand scopes that have been coming into USA from China for awhile
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Have you thought about a transfer switch? Those take the hassle out of using the generator with extension cords and having to plug and unplug stuff.
</div></div>

+1 on wiring it up right with a transfer switch. Also, if you don't get a whole house transfer switch you can wire up the circuits you want (bedroom, family room, kitchen (fridge/freezer), heater fan, etc.) and use a smaller, quieter generator that consumes less gas.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been wanting a good portable generator for awhile. Crap I live in Oakland.

I went down to a repair shop last week to pick up a new in the box Honda EB5000. When I got there I shit you not. This was a typical China made small generator with Honda paint job and Honda stickers on it. The shop owner tried to play dumb but when I commented that Honda weighs over 200 lbs and this generator was closer to 75lbs, he finally admitted it was not a "True Honda"

Back to shopping </div></div>
Mike,
This is happening more an more. In 1986 when Kohler, an Roger P. (Detroit Diesel) had their first chest beating meeting, the Power Generation Ind. was changed forever, overnight. In the early 90's many a control board was being farmed out to China. In the late 90's early 2000 most folks that belong to ESGA were having their bread an butter boards an controls built in China. Mid 2000 we started seeing knock offs of everything, and sad to say some of it was installed into some highly restricted venues.

Two weeks ago I got a call from a entity in Huntsville, to come check out a unit that had been installed, but was now in questioned by their contracting officer, an Purchasing folks. They knew I was retired, an that is why they called. They wanted a outside the loop, set of eyes to check it out. Long, short, it was a working fake, that made it's way past every inspection to land on the site. Problem is we are talking a system that would normally start at 7 digits an go up with adders. They paid less than 60% of real cost dollars. Everyone is getting caught up with fakes, and I'd say more is to come.

The old adage buyer beware, has much truth in it.
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: procovert45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got one fer ya gunfighter. I got a generac pto driven "tractor" 60kw surge 30kw continuious alternator "generator".when I engauge the pto on the tractor the generator is getting bad about not picking up and charging. I have to start and stop it several times for it to start output. Its gota volt meter on the front you engage pto and when it starts producing voltage you bring rpm's up into the green operating zone and your gtg. </div></div>

some answers i have put in your quote. thanks fer your help .and the gen. will still work eventually you just gotta keep engauging pto and disengauging and playing with rpms when engauging pto for it to "pick up " and start outputting

Have you checked it with a separate voltage meter, or are you just going by the units meter. Sounds like a bad conection,

1...not the meter no output on meter or 220v lead or 2 110's

or the unit is losing it's stopped, residual voltage which can happen with some units. Re-flashing the fields with DC voltage sometimes corrects this, depending on the separator (lamination)metal quality.

i suspect this is the prob personally, i have read some on this
Also please tell me you are starting the generator w/o load, then closing the Breaker or then transferring your transfer switch.

2.....i know you have to ask ,but of course. we have had big generators my whole life."dairy farm" cooler/milkers must run no matter what.cows dont wait. bring gen. up to rated output on meter then flip switch and send tha juice.

All generators have a full load rating an a inrush rating. Depending on the unit an how it's made the inrush rating can be as low as 105% of rated for a few mil sec, to as high as 350% for a few seconds to spool a motor up to speed but, only once they are at or near rated speed. Only units that will start loads, from a stopped generator state are PMG voltage regulator excited, or open loop battery excited machines. Closed loop internally excited machines are fair, with compound shunts a little better, Compound boost next, then PMG , an open loop static battery, the top dog.
</div></div>

originally when tractor pto was engauged voltage meter began to read and as rpms increased voltage output increased until desired output then flip the main and send it.

so i prob need to flash it. tell me more about how to do this.do i do this on a board inside the machine, what voltage battery , is it essentially a battery built into the board that is going bad not holding the charge necessary to get it started. i can send ya pics of the inside
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: procovert45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so i prob need to flash it. tell me more about how to do this.</div></div>
After receiving you PM offer,...have gun an tools will travel.
grin.gif
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

Gunfighter, good advice - I am also a power gen guy, GT's though.

30+ years in power gen has taught me one thing - the only fuel security is the fuel in your tank,and then only if you are sure of the quality of it. Diesel can spoil, not as quick as gasoline though.

I say this because of the proliferation of nat gas gen sets in our area. Tell you what, a LOT of the gas pipelines are now electric motors on compressors, not as many prime mover diesel and GT compressors as 20 years ago. Point being, there may not be gas when you most need it.

Me - diesel only, with a small gasoline backup. My truck is also diesel, I can carry 85 gallons in the bed tank, and get to somewhere that has power/fuel if I need to. Prior to hurricane season I can get a pallet of 55 gallon drum fuel or a 250 gallon tank delivered with a phone call and credit card. If the storm doesn't come, I can keep it, or burn it in the truck, tractor or genset, the choice is mine, because I have some consistency in my needs.

Next house will have a 20 kw diesel built in, 20' high, with 500 gallon tank!!!! And a truck fill hose also.....

Propane is also a good choice, but get a BIG tank, the chance of you getting it refilled after a catastrophic event is very small. Everyone else will want some too. Better yet, get two and locate them away from each other. After Hurricane Rita, lost propane tanks that floated away, were everywhere. I used a 3kw gas Yamaha inverter unit for 3 months after that storm, we had no power in Cameron parish until almost Christmas. Duck season however, continued unabated!!!!
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

Ya they changed our local NG pump from Diesel to motor about 15 years ago, that's when I changed both my gas units to duel fuel inputs. Two demand reg's, an 3 Asco's with a flip switch. If the NG ever goes off it's just a flip, of the gas control switch, an we are now back up with either unit. Backup to those is a 25KW Diesel, with other backup. I will not allow my family to be w/o power. But there are draw backs as well, main is the amount of friends you gain, you never knew prior, to a prolonged outage. Last prolong here, was April when TVA's 500KV lines came down. Can't turn away the children at all, as they should not suffer because Dad or Mom thought a Boat, Flash car, or paying for a gardener is more important than their family's well being an safety.

Working on a TS-3 Lister that I am turning into a inverter generator, with a twist.
Nice to be retired an be able, to build an tinker with, out of the box stuff, big time papered folks said would never work.
Love it, when they see it working an ask, how did you do that?
 
Re: Portable generators-Help

Would like to re-open this thread guys. My mom lives in a remote part of the Poconos where power outs from frozen power lines are common and she lives off a gravel dirt road often inaccessible in severe weather condition; and also competent, reliable contractors are hard to find. She has shoulder issues so can't do a pull-start.
She does have an external propane tank that was primary source of electricity for over 15 years; she converted 2 years ago to power compary so she is no longer using that tank. We really like the idea of a dual or multiple-fuel system; maybe one that can be linked to that propane tank for one. Neither of us would know what/how to sort through info. on various generators; we just know we need power ignition start, needs to keep fridge/oven 3 rooms on, as long durations as possible - would like as dependable and independent from servicing as possible give the paucity of reliable contractors. Price is least important over dependability and maintenance requirements. Thanks for any advice.



 
latimes.com
Attack on electric grid raises alarm
Damage to power station in shooting last year prompts worries over terrorism.

By Evan Halper and Marc Lifsher

5:55 PM PST, February 6, 2014
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Shooters armed with assault rifles and some knowledge of electrical utilities have prompted new worries on the vulnerability of California's vast power grid.

A 2013 attack on an electric substation near San Jose that nearly knocked out Silicon Valley's power supply was initially downplayed as vandalism by Pacific Gas & Electric Co., the facility's owner. Gunfire from semiautomatic weapons did extensive damage to 17 transformers that sent grid operators scrambling to avoid a blackout.

But this week, a former top power regulator offered a far more ominous interpretation: The attack was terrorism, he said, and if circumstances had been just a little different, it could have been disastrous.

Jon Wellinghoff, who was chairman of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission when the shooting took place, said that attack was clearly executed by well-trained individuals seeking to do significant damage to the area, and he fears it was a test run for an even larger assault.

"It would not be that hard to bring down the entire region west of the Rockies if you, in fact, had a coordinated attack like this against a number of substations," Wellinghoff said Thursday. "This [shooting] event shows there are people out there capable of such an attack."

Wellinghoff's warning about the incident at PG&E's Metcalf substation was reported this week by the Wall Street Journal, expanding on a December report by Foreign Policy magazine.

FBI officials said they are taking the shooting very seriously.

"Based on the information we have right now, we don't believe it's related to terrorism," said Peter Lee, an FBI spokesman in San Francisco. But, he added, "Until we understand the motives, we won't be 100% sure it's not terrorism."

Months after the shooting, the bureau has named no suspects.

Potential terrorism scenarios usually involve elaborate cyberattacks, expertly executed hijackings or smuggled nuclear weapons. But concern grows that California may have come unnervingly close to learning that calamity might just as easily be inflicted by a few well-trained snipers.

As law enforcement tries to piece together who fired at the electricity facility, lawmakers and analysts express bewilderment that little is being done to protect against a repeat performance.

"We've got a vulnerability and we've got to get serious about fixing it," said Granger Morgan, who heads the Department of Engineering and Public Policy at Carnegie Mellon University. "Almost everything we do in modern society relies on electricity."

A National Research Council committee he chaired issued a 2007 report warning how easy it would be for a criminal enterprise to knock out the power grid in a way that "could deny large regions of the country access to bulk power systems for weeks or even months," leading to "turmoil, widespread public fear and an image of helplessness that would play directly into the hands of terrorists."

The classified report was completed in 2007 and became public two years ago. Asked what has happened since then to protect the nation's electricity system, Morgan replied that very little has been done.

The attack on the PG&E facility targeted the sophisticated transformers that are at the backbone of the nation's electricity grid. The giant pieces of equipment are essential, costly and could take months to replace. Knock out enough of them, experts warn, and an entire region can be crippled for an extended period. They are also typically out in the open like sitting ducks.

On that April night, the attackers managed to disable 17 of them just by shooting through a chain-link fence. The bullet holes caused the transformers to leak thousands of gallons of oil, and ultimately overheat. Grid operators scrambled to reroute power from elsewhere to keep the system from collapse. The power stayed on, but just barely, because it happened during a time when demand for electricity was very low.

"Fortunately it was spring and we did not have air conditioners running full throttle in the morning," said Stephanie McCorkle, a spokeswoman for the California Independent System Operator in Folsom, which runs most of the state's electrical grid. "That's why the situation was manageable."

Wellinghoff, now a partner at the San Francisco law office Stoel Rives, said the grid's interdependence on substations across large swaths of the country — and a scarcity of spare equipment — makes it possible to trigger an enduring blackout across several states simply by destroying key transformers in one of them.

Days after the April shooting, Wellinghoff flew out to review the damage with experts from the Pentagon and the FBI. They noticed piles of stones had been set up outside the site, apparently by someone who had scoped it out to guide the snipers.

The bullet holes were carefully targeted so as not to hit the parts of the equipment that would cause an explosion and attract the attention of drivers on nearby U.S. 101. Of some 120 shots fired from at least 40 yards outside the fence, 110 of them hit transformers, Wellinghoff said.

"A dress rehearsal" is how Mark Johnson, a retired vice president at PG&E, described the event to a Philadelphia gathering of electricity industry officials in November. Johnson said the attackers opened two 75-pound manhole covers and used a ladder to cut fiber-optic lines, a possible attempt to disconnect security cameras. They fired for seven minutes, targeting radiators on the banks of transformers.

"This wasn't an incident where Billy-Bob and Joe decided after a bunch of brewskis they were going to shoot up a substation," he said. "When you look at this event and how calculated, how well organized and how well thought out it was, it clearly indicates that a chain-link fence was not enough to secure a substation."

PG&E officials say they are taking steps to improve grid security and are consulting with government agencies on how best to do so.

"This is definitely an unusual event and one we're taking very seriously," said Brian Swanson, a company spokesman. He said, though, that the fact that grid operators were able to keep the lights on after the shooting shows the company was prepared, and has procedures and technology in place to protect against sabotage.

Congress has been battling for years over proposals that would force utilities to do more. One proposed measure, the Grid Reliability Infrastructure and Defense Act, would have given federal regulators authority to impose specific rules. It sailed through the House but died in the Senate in 2010.

Its author, Sen. Edward Markey (D-Mass.), who was then a congressman, blamed its demise on aggressive lobbying by electricity companies.
Attack on electric grid raises alarm - latimes.com
 
That's pretty scary, Phil. to paraphrase what they said about the banks in '08' ("To big to fail")...I think our system has become "To complex to survive." Things have gotten too inter related. A big hit on one section, especially the internet, can shut down huge other sections. Imagine that the net crashed for a week...NO phones, no communications, no fuel, no food, maybe even no water. Mass hysteria, and its coming. Not if, but when.