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possible rare find at flea market today?

jayd4wg

jayd4wg

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Aug 12, 2009
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Steel City
I came across a Remington 1917 in 300WM, clean action, clean bore, actually a VERY clean gun overall. it has the enfield stamp on the receiver as well and my thought is that this is one of the rifles Enfield was contracted to make in early ww1? I know VERY little about the history of these rifles but it seemed odd to find one chambered (ORIGINAL?) in 300WM. it was mated very well to a decent sporterized stock...if it was in the original military stock i would have taken more notice and more time looking at it. Guy was trying to get 300-325 for the rifle WITH a new simmons 3-9x40 on it. i didn't have the cash and wife would have killed me...still...a neat, clean rifle. Anyone know anything about these?
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

It would be rare indeed... since the .300 WinMag was developed in 1963 and the 1917's were made in 1917 and 1918.

You are looking, most likely, at a sporterized 1917 action rebarreled in .300 WinMag. Up until a few years ago when people started to seriously collect 1917's, '03 Springfields, etc... these guns were cheap, plentiful and easily gunsmithed.

So lots were chopped up. Heracy today, a good way to a cheap well-made rifle back then.

The price is probably about right for a sporter like that with a scope. Though the Simmons scope may be a bit marginal for that sharp-recoiling rifle unless it's really heavy.

Just some thoughts... but doubt there is much rare about that one. Thanks for sharing!

Cheers, Sirhr
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

The .300 Winchester Magnum was introduced in 1963 by Winchester for use in the Model 70 rifle. The introduction of the .300 Winchester Magnum was not unforeseen; rather, its introduction was anticlimactic. Winchester developed the .300 Winchester Magnum by taking the .338 Winchester Magnum which was introduced in 1958 and moved the shoulder forward by 0.156 inches (4.0 mm) and lengthening it by 0.120 inches (3.0 mm). This caused the cartridge to have a neck shorter than the diameter of the bullet. There has been some speculation that if the cartridge was released earlier, the dimensions of the cartridge would have matched the .30-338 Winchester wildcat cartridge. Since its introduction the cartridge has remained extremely popular.[6]

The .300 Winchester Magnum's high availability in popular rifles such as Winchester's Model 70 and Remington Model 700 made the cartridge a popular choice among the shooting public. Although the .300 H&H Magnum, .30-338 Winchester Magnum and the .308 Norma Magnum had a head start on the .300 Winchester Magnum these cartridges soon faded into obsolescence. Only the .300 Weatherby Magnum was to survive as a readily available cartridge.
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

That rifle sells for $250 all day near me. Just another cheap sporter from the 60's and 70's. All M1917 where 30-06 all Patt 14's where 303 Brit. The Patt 13 was .276 Enfield (RARE!!!!).

Buy the rifle not the STORY! I would also say cast all old military rifle chamber! As one of my M1917's is a .308 Norma Mag. I found out the hard way.

Go here to learn:
http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=111
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

People did wierd things with Springfields and 1917s, Some made you wonder about the gun smith.

I was going elk hunting on Afognak Island and this other cop wanted to go. I was iffy so I had him go to the range to watch him shoot.

He shows up with a 1903 Springfield that had been chambered for a 308 Norma Mag. Ok good enough for elk, but he had 308 Win Ammo and no scope or iron sights.

I ask him about the ammo and he tells me 308 is 308, OK what about the sights, "moose are big, don't need sights".

I went hunting alone.

Next Owner. This cop sold this guy to a second cop, He asked me about the rifle and I told him the 308 Norma was a good round but he need a scope. So he has a scope put on (I didn't do it).

Next owner: Now comes a third cop, he buys the rifle and some 308 Norma ammo. Being a good friend he brings it to me to check it out. Somebody forgot to open up the boat face when they re-chambered it. I can do that, but has me wondering how anyone could check the head space with out openning up the boat face.

So I openned the boat face to take the Norma round and check the head space, luck would have it it was OK. Now since I'm involved in working on the rifle I take it out and shoot it. Kicks a mite, it was lighter then I would have liked but was accurate and safe.

The third owner hunted sucessfully with the rifle, He retired from APD a bit after I did, but stayed in the NG and which I had already retired from. He went a bit further there then I did, He's the current AG for the AK NG.

So if one buys one of these converted military rifles, have them checked out BEFORE YOU BUY.

I'm sure there are people out there that converted low serial number Springfields to magnums. Not something I'd want to be around.
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

good info...i knew nothing and still know very little about the 300WM. i did take the guys card in case it turned out to be something to take a closer look at...i won't be calling him.

The only part that was REALLY fishy to me about the trip to the "flea-tique" yesterday was how he kept telling me he fired 8 rounds out of it and was going to let the rest of the ammo go with it (2 or 3 boxes...i forget) I did look at the spent rounds - they had different primers than the live ones...i called him on this and he said they were reloads.
"you'll be keeping the ammo and finding a way of making the deal sweeter if i call then" and he continued to assure me that the rifle shoots very well. Given the whole thing weighed about what my .308 weighs fully laden with 5 rounds in the mag/hole and 9 more on the butt sleeve, I'm certain this thing is a little punishing.

Thanks for the heads up on the 300WM date of introduction...it would have taken me a little while to catch on to that.
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

Considering the action was made in 1917 or 18 and the 300WM chambering released on 1962, I doubt it was original - but you never know. Tweak the flux capacitor some and it could happen.
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

The 1917 was probably one of the beefiest military actions made. .458 Win Mag was a popular conversion. I would like to find one in .416 Rigby which many were converted to. That cartridge is probably the most period correct for a conversion assuming one cared about sporterized Enfields.
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

^^ Yeah Im with you on this one, those 17's are tanks and can be quite heavy to carry in the field. I am not much into sproterizing anymore as projects can become costly, but a 1917 in .416 or .458 Lott, iron sights, would be nice.
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

The A-Square rifles are also on M1917/P14 actions, as well. Everything from Ackley-ized H&H to .460 Weatherby Magnum blown out to 50 cal., A.K.A. 500 A-Square. There is not a better military action to build a big magnum on, and in a lot of ways, it is better than many commercial actions.

Remington also made commercial rifles with this action, the Remington Model 30 and 720.
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

I just got a sporterized P1917 in 30-06 and she shoots pretty good so far. Was just playing with it on Friday...no serious shooting yet. Can't wait to sit down and put some rounds on paper to see what she can do.
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FinnCollector</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The A-Square rifles are also on M1917/P14 actions, as well. Everything from Ackley-ized H&H to .460 Weatherby Magnum blown out to 50 cal., A.K.A. 500 A-Square. There is not a better military action to build a big magnum on, and in a lot of ways, it is better than many commercial actions.

Remington also made commercial rifles with this action, the Remington Model 30 and 720. </div></div>

Love to have an A-Square.



http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=286790290

Here's one in 577 T-Rex. Enfields are beasts.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=288087682

Classic T-Rex in action.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0MOpQeQgEO8"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0MOpQeQgEO8" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

1917s are a very sought out rifle for that reason alone. They can be reamed into a wide range of calibers. The 1917s had a lot of extra 'meat' in the action and barrel.

I have one that was made by Remington and chambered in 30-06, which was more than likely the original caliber. Back in 1917 they were just beginning to introduce smokeless powder, and they always 'played it safe' by keeping a lot more material than was needed in the chamber of the rifle. Therefore, they are perfect for 'custom' chamberings.
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RoosterShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1917s are a very sought out rifle for that reason alone. They can be reamed into a wide range of calibers. The 1917s had a lot of extra 'meat' in the action and barrel.

I have one that was made by Remington and chambered in 30-06, which was more than likely the original caliber. Back in 1917 they were just beginning to introduce smokeless powder, and they always 'played it safe' by keeping a lot more material than was needed in the chamber of the rifle. Therefore, they are perfect for 'custom' chamberings.
</div></div>

IIRC, wasn't smokeless powder introduced thirty years before this rifle? I believe smokeless powder came about in France in 1886 and the first smokeless powder rifle in a America came out in 1892 with the Springfield Krag-Jorgensen. Then of course there was the 1903 Springfield. I am confused as to why you say they "played it safe."
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RidgeAve. Rifleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RoosterShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1917s are a very sought out rifle for that reason alone. They can be reamed into a wide range of calibers. The 1917s had a lot of extra 'meat' in the action and barrel.

I have one that was made by Remington and chambered in 30-06, which was more than likely the original caliber. Back in 1917 they were just beginning to introduce smokeless powder, and they always 'played it safe' by keeping a lot more material than was needed in the chamber of the rifle. Therefore, they are perfect for 'custom' chamberings.
</div></div>

IIRC, wasn't smokeless powder introduced thirty years before this rifle? I believe smokeless powder came about in France in 1886 and the first smokeless powder rifle in a America came out in 1892 with the Springfield Krag-Jorgensen. Then of course there was the 1903 Springfield. I am confused as to why you say they "played it safe." </div></div>

The 1903 Springfield was originally designed around the .303 rimmed cartridge that was originally a black powder cartridge. Then, when they introduced the .303 rimmed in smokeless, they never changed the specs on the actions.

Into 1917 they were still messing with the laws of 'physics' and just realizing the affects of pressures involved in rifle cartridges. So, as a result, they always 'played it safe' and added way more material than was needed.

This is a universal occurrence as you see a lot of this happening in the early Mausers and even evidenced in the octagon barrels of the Russian 91/30s.
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

I've never seen this video before. It's a compilation of folks taking on the T-Rex. A little off topic, but I'm 95% sure that's a 1917 converted by A-Square. Never gets old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQJSZs-euZU

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CQJSZs-euZU"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CQJSZs-euZU" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

The Pattern 14 (P14) in 303 British is a little better piece to start with as the rimmed cartridge required a larger bolt face, so the bolt is already sized for a magnum cartridge...just the extractor would need to be modified. The internal box magazine can have the sheetmetal reworked to allow a maximum OAL of about 3.840". This makes it ok for .338 Lapua, the RUM family of cartridges, the Weatherby family of belted magnums,.458 Lott, .416 Rigby, .404 & .500 Jeffery, etc.

It is just the cost in gunsmithing labor that is prohibitive. Luckily there are enough old sporterized ones lying around at pawn and gun shops that one can be found with the sight ears already removed, the perch belly bottom metal straightened, and the duck pond (if present) on the rear receiver bridge already filled in for a reasonable price.
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RoosterShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RidgeAve. Rifleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RoosterShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1917s are a very sought out rifle for that reason alone. They can be reamed into a wide range of calibers. The 1917s had a lot of extra 'meat' in the action and barrel.

I have one that was made by Remington and chambered in 30-06, which was more than likely the original caliber. Back in 1917 they were just beginning to introduce smokeless powder, and they always 'played it safe' by keeping a lot more material than was needed in the chamber of the rifle. Therefore, they are perfect for 'custom' chamberings.
</div></div>

IIRC, wasn't smokeless powder introduced thirty years before this rifle? I believe smokeless powder came about in France in 1886 and the first smokeless powder rifle in a America came out in 1892 with the Springfield Krag-Jorgensen. Then of course there was the 1903 Springfield. I am confused as to why you say they "played it safe." </div></div>

The 1903 Springfield was originally designed around the .303 rimmed cartridge that was originally a black powder cartridge. Then, when they introduced the .303 rimmed in smokeless, they never changed the specs on the actions.

Into 1917 they were still messing with the laws of 'physics' and just realizing the affects of pressures involved in rifle cartridges. So, as a result, they always 'played it safe' and added way more material than was needed.

This is a universal occurrence as you see a lot of this happening in the early Mausers and even evidenced in the octagon barrels of the Russian 91/30s. </div></div>

Do you have a referance for the information concerning the .303 black powder cartridge for the 1903 Springfield. I am curious as to why it was developed seeing as how the US had adopted a smokeless powder rifle 11 years prior with the 1892 Springfield.
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

I was under the impression and my memory is not what it was, but I had a P17 and tried to chamber it in 300WM but magazine was a little short and went with the .308 Norma instead. Any thoughts? Just my memories.. Maybe the 300 is not a SM but a Norma?
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

The 1903 rifle was a direct result of US troops facing Mausers in Cuba during the Spanish American War. Our troops carried Trapdoor Springfields chambered for 45-70 ( black powder ) and Springfield Krags chambered for 30 US Govt ( 30-40 ) it was smokeless. The Army wanted a higher velocity round for the new 1903 Springfield and the 30-03 was developed.It was a rimless round.It was not a rimmed blackpowder 303. Unfortunately they chose a round nosed bullet and the round suffered ballistically. The rifle also had issues and it was redesigned, as well as rechambered for the new 30-06 round with a spitzer bullet. Teddie Roosevelt had a direct hand in redesigning the 1903, by Presidential order he had them get rid of the useless rod bayonet. He felt that his experience in Cuba showed that the rod bayonet fitted to the Trapdoors was useless.
 
Re: possible rare find at flea market today?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HFV</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bump </div></div>

WTF are you bumping exactly?
 
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