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Powder Measurement Precision...

O

oneshot onekill

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 29, 2008
1,955
16
61
DeBary, Florida
#1
Sorry if this has been beaten to death but I didn't see exactly what I was looking for when I searched...

When I throw my powder I'm compelled to weigh each and every load because the variance between any two can be as much as .2 to .4 grains. I'm using a Lyman #55. I was told by an older gentleman I know who has been reloading for many years that you can be as much as .5 grains off and you would not see a difference in performance. I have a hard time believing that. So far I've been using Varget and IMR4064 which are both getting caught and cut in my powder measurer from time to time.

Here's my question: What's the best, most accurate way to measure that type of powder?... It's taking me really long long to make bullets when I have to weigh each load... Or was the gentleman I spoke to correct about the variance being OK?
 
#2
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

In a nut shell, yes, a half grain (.5) off and you could be out of your sweet spot load. Most scales are accurate to .1 grains. For the money, an RCBS or Hornady electronic powder dispenser works good and is fast. You can also get a digital scale, like an Accu-lab that's good to .02 grains, which is about the size of a kernel of powder. Depending on how much you want to spend, you can get a Prometheus.
 
#3
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

If you at a real OCW accuracy node, you can be off by something around 0.2gr (0.4gr window) with neglible diminishment of accuracy.

A real OCW accuracy node is only found by actually determining how wide the particular accuracy node you have found is. And this requires a survey around your chosen point at a fine a CW graduation as your scale can muster. Few do this.
 
#4
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2sqNcs-uWzY&playnext_from=TL&videos=a5xw4KZbpTg"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2sqNcs-uWzY&playnext_from=TL&videos=a5xw4KZbpTg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6scLPhkT-8w&feature=related"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6scLPhkT-8w&feature=related" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
 
#8
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

I suggest you try the one or two kernel load accuracy, for around 100 successive shots and do the same for .1 and .2 and .3 grain differences...at a range that challenges the differences..say 800 yards...and then report back about the .1 or .2 or .3 grain difference between those groups and the two kernel loads. You may be, if I may be so blunt, "In2Deep". JMHO
 
#9
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chargemaster (or a thrower) and an Acculab VIC-123 w/ the Omega trickler. You can be 1-2 kernal accurate and do about 100 per hour.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...968#Post1866968

For a whole lot less than a Prometheus </div></div>

Prometheus is still faster
 
#12
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RJ Hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless you have a "True" Lab Standard scale. You are likely just tilting at windmills. If your loads are that critical that a unmeasurable amount of powder compromises your accuracy - you need to work up better loads using a different set of reliable components. Let the target board tell you. Not just some half-assed scale. Oh yea, while I'm at it. <span style="color: #FF0000">This is a tactical board. Benchrest is on another channel.</span> </div></div>

Hey...Hey, What's with the attitude. I'm just trying to speed up my reloading process without compromising accuracy too much and I've been given information that doesn't seem right to me. I'm using a digital scale and I like that last number to at least be close from charge to charge.

Besides, I think you'll find most of the serious Tactical shooters on this Board are just as interested in accuracy as any benchrest shooter.
 
#13
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

YMMV,

My standard is + or - .1 grain.
If you have developed a good accuracy node this should not make a measurable difference.

I do however understand the complete OCD obsession with obtaining perfect loads.
(You need to draw the line somewhere though.)
It is my opinion though that these "perfect loads" make more of a difference in the shooters performance not the cartridge.
(Meaning the confidence gained in the shooter's mind is what is most effected.)

Thare are the folks that make benchrest quality ammunition for shooting tactical competitions and there are those that use a dillon and crank out as many as they can.
To each their own...
 
#14
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

+1 chargemaster.. And it can be reprogrammed very easily to speed up.

For a manual thrower, a cheap Lee thrower is supposed to be as good as any out there for extruded powder like varget. It doesn't cut kernels either.

Giles.
 
#15
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

Hand trickle if you want to, but if your thrower can get them with a tenth up and down that's damned near perfect. Depending on your bullet and powder .4 total up and down might be fine too. Test it out and see you might be surprised.

I used to trickle everything but after I bought a chrono and tested trickled vs thrown I just throw everything.
 
#16
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

Thanks for the Great info guys! I think I'm going to bite the bullet and buy the new Hornady "Auto-Charge" and if it's close I'll call it good. What I've been doing is: Throw the charge into the brass, dump it onto the scale, adjust it accordingly and then dump it back into the brass. The Auto-Charge will eliminate at least one step.
 
#20
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry if this has been beaten to death but I didn't see exactly what I was looking for when I searched...

When I throw my powder I'm compelled to weigh each and every load because the variance between any two can be as much as .2 to .4 grains. I'm using a Lyman #55. I was told by an older gentleman I know who has been reloading for many years that you can be as much as .5 grains off and you would not see a difference in performance. I have a hard time believing that. So far I've been using Varget and IMR4064 which are both getting caught and cut in my powder measurer from time to time.

Here's my question: What's the best, most accurate way to measure that type of powder?... It's taking me really long long to make bullets when I have to weigh each load... Or was the gentleman I spoke to correct about the variance being OK? </div></div>

When loading for a rifle, I look for precision, not speed. So I weigh each load. My tools:

RCBS Uniflow Powder measure
RCBS Powder trickler
Lyman 1500 electronic scale
50 round reloading block (filled with 25 cases staggered)
Frankford Arsenal Powder Funnel with 16 Nozzles and 4" Drop Tube

Process:

I set my Powder measure to drop .4 grains Less than desired weight. I place it on the scale and trickle in to bring it up to weight. Set funnel, dump charge in case. Total Time: 10-15 seconds per case.

What's the wait time on a Chargemaster????

When I've done 25. I inspect visually, then seat bullets.

If you want precision, there is no way to really speed up this process.

Bob
 
#21
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry if this has been beaten to death but I didn't see exactly what I was looking for when I searched...

When I throw my powder I'm compelled to weigh each and every load because the variance between any two can be as much as .2 to .4 grains. I'm using a Lyman #55. I was told by an older gentleman I know who has been reloading for many years that you can be as much as .5 grains off and you would not see a difference in performance. I have a hard time believing that. So far I've been using Varget and IMR4064 which are both getting caught and cut in my powder measurer from time to time.

Here's my question: What's the best, most accurate way to measure that type of powder?... It's taking me really long long to make bullets when I have to weigh each load... Or was the gentleman I spoke to correct about the variance being OK? </div></div>

When loading for a rifle, I look for precision, not speed. So I weigh each load. My tools:

RCBS Uniflow Powder measure
RCBS Powder trickler
Lyman 1500 electronic scale
50 round reloading block (filled with 25 cases staggered)
Frankford Arsenal Powder Funnel with 16 Nozzles and 4" Drop Tube

Process:

I set my Powder measure to drop .4 grains Less than desired weight. I place it on the scale and trickle in to bring it up to weight. Set funnel, dump charge in case. Total Time: 10-15 seconds per case.

What's the wait time on a Chargemaster????

When I've done 25. I inspect visually, then seat bullets.

If you want precision, there is no way to really speed up this process.

Bob


</div></div>
I can see where the time spent waiting for the Auto-Charge is more than you spend with your method. Probably twice as long in many cases. But that "Hit the button and forget it" feature gives me time to do some of the other steps in the reloading process like inspecting the brass before the powder goes in, seating the projectile and checking COAL afterward. Plus, hopefully, I don't have to make adjustments to the charge when it's done. Just dump it and move on.

I went ahead and ordered the Auto-Charge from Midway and we'll see how it goes.

I also only had $250.00 to spend and the Auto-Charge came in at $249.53 including the shipping. I'm content.
 
#22
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chargemaster (or a thrower) and an Acculab VIC-123 w/ the Omega trickler. You can be 1-2 kernal accurate and do about 100 per hour.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...968#Post1866968

For a whole lot less than a Prometheus </div></div>

Prometheus is still faster</div></div>

Prometheus is still $2500 more and unobtainable.
 
#23
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

Waiting for the chargemaster or whatever to dispense is not wasted time.. You take your charged case and seat the bullet while it's throwing out the next charge for you.
And with a reprogrammed chargemaster, the damn thing dispenses faster than I can move funnel, seat bullet, place in ammo box and wipe sweat from my brow.
smile.gif
 
#24
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

I loaded some 77gr. SMK using WCC 07 Brass and shot a group (8rds.) about 1/4in. oh yeah it was at 300yds. with an A4 service rifle off the bench. Guess what I loaded the ammo on... a Dillon 1050 Super. took me about 15min.
 
#26
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chargemaster (or a thrower) and an Acculab VIC-123 w/ the Omega trickler. You can be 1-2 kernal accurate and do about 100 per hour.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...968#Post1866968

For a whole lot less than a Prometheus </div></div>

Prometheus is still faster</div></div>

Prometheus is still $2500 more and unobtainable. </div></div>

Gen 1 not 2
 
#27
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

Call me crazy, but my Lee powder dropper drops it to 0.1 accuracy and it's only like 18 bucks. For my plinking loads, I usually weight every 10 pulls and they always come up either exact or just 0.1 over.

For my precision loads, I take a spoon and manually drop the powder into my weighing dish until it is exactly the desired grain that I want. Takes a long time but well worth it.
 
#28
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

Tactical board or not if you are shooting at 1000yds and want a first shot hit you had better have your velocity right on and .5 grains can change the velocity a lot!

P.S. The benchrest guys get sighters to see where they are, tactical shooters do not.
 
#29
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1/4" eight shot group at 300yds??? Where's the BS Flag when you need it?!... Seriously though, I'd like to see that happen again!
wink.gif
... With any load!

** You know I'm just raggin' ya. </div></div>

I will post a pic ASAP.
 
#30
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

[img:center]
2cf33w9.jpg
[/img]

Remember I said almost a 1/4 in. I was shocked when I went down to see the target. I could not make it out thru the spotter.
 
#31
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

"Remember I said almost a 1/4 in. I was shocked when I went down to see the target. I could not make it out thru the spotter."

Do it twice more and I'll be duly impressed.

Otherwise I'll tell you about the rabbit I once popped at 135 long steps with a Marlin 39A using standard velocity ammo, in one ear and out the other too. Tasted fine, but I don't figger to get another one that way.
wink.gif
 
#32
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Remember I said almost a 1/4 in. I was shocked when I went down to see the target. I could not make it out thru the spotter."

Do it twice more and I'll be duly impressed.

Otherwise I'll tell you about the rabbit I once popped at 135 long steps with a Marlin 39A using standard velocity ammo, in one ear and out the other too. Tasted fine, but I don't figger to get another one that way.
wink.gif
</div></div>

OK I will be at the range several more times this week and next week until I leave for Perry. R/ Mike
 
#33
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2sqNcs-uWzY&playnext_from=TL&videos=a5xw4KZbpTg"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2sqNcs-uWzY&playnext_from=TL&videos=a5xw4KZbpTg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

</div></div>

That is the greatest video ever produced, in the history of produced videos.
 
#34
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LARMIKE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> [img:center]
2cf33w9.jpg
[/img]

Remember I said almost a 1/4 in. I was shocked when I went down to see the target. I could not make it out thru the spotter. </div></div>
I was just messin' around but... Damn! That's good shootin'. If it's really 300yds I'm impressed. Glad you're on our side!
 
#35
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

You can get any load to shoot better with absolutely precise powder measurement, but a good load (node) doesn't need that. It has a broader tolerance for small variances.

BTW, one of the things I just (re)learned is to never mix fluorescent lighting and digital scales. No wonder my shooting sucked.

Greg
 
#36
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can get any load to shoot better with absolutely precise powder measurement, but a good load (node) doesn't need that. It has a broader tolerance for small variances.

BTW, one of the things I just (re)learned is to never mix fluorescent lighting and digital scales. No wonder my shooting sucked.

Greg </div></div>
REALLY?!... Do you mean In relation to proximity or on the same circuit? My shed has ALL fluorescents and that's where I reload.
 
#37
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

Find a beam scale. Beak down some of your 'measured loads' and weigh them on the beam scale. I found up to .9gr variances in .260 loads.

Ohyeah! That'll put 'em in the 3 ring...

Symptom: when you weight the charges, the digital scale takes a while to 'settle' down. You got that, you got the problem.

Greg
 
#38
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

I'm using a Dillon digital scale now and haven't seen that symptom with it. I also have a beam scale that I used to check the accuracy of the digital when I first got it. Guess I'll have to do the same with the Auto-charge when it arrives. Thanks for that tip Greg!
 
#39
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I found up to .9gr variances in .260 loads.

Ohyeah! That'll put 'em in the 3 ring...
Greg </div></div>
Greg, is this factory ammo? If so,are they using an extruded powder (I assume yes) or a ball/spherical powder? I've pulled a lot of factory ammo and find the same variance on it all. Thanks!
 
#40
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

I let mine 'settle' too before use.
Set the machine up 30 mins before you need it, and leave it switched on,
then calibrate and zero it when your ready to start dispensing..

That way you don't get any 'zero shifts' half way thru charging your cases.

If you store your machine in a different room, you might want to give it longer to adjust to the new ambient room temperature etc.

Giles.
 
#42
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

.9 grains difference in loads? OMG that is crazy...I have flourescent bulbs in my loading room but if I were having that kind of problem I would have seen an exploded gun by now...it scares me though so i am going home tonight and changing out the bulbs....by the way all those energy efficient bulbs your wives put in are flourescent......
 
#43
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

I don't understand the flourescent light bulb things. My work area is all flourescent lighting. Can you elaborate more on how it affects a digital scale?
 
#44
Re: Powder Measurement Precision...

Digital powder scales must have a lot of sensitivity to work at all but that makes them sensitive to outside electromagnetic influences. Long, multipule tube type flourescent fixtures commonly have some fairly large "ballast" transformers that produce such influences. Some folks say cell phones, radios, etc, can do it too but I doubt that.

What's missing in the discussions of small variations in charges so far is a consideraion of range. Inside maybe 300 yards small speed differences typically matter little if at all. At longer ranges the speed spread does begin to play into increasing vertical dispersion so it becomes important to control the extreme spread of a load for long range shooting.

Most rifles will accept a significant powder variation before any actual MOA (group) size is affected. It's not uncommon for such a window of charge tolerance to be as wide as a full grain, depending somewhat on the size of the cartridge. If we load in the middle of such a window we can vary +/- .5 grain and not see any difference except at uncommonly long ranges, and that due to speed, not barrel harmonics.

It's important to learn our rifle's actual full charge tolerance range during load development. Loading on the very edge of what does well can make a load quirky; it will have a large tolerance in one direction but a very narrow tolerance in the other. I suspect a lot of "unexplainable" flyers are due to people charging too close to the limit so small variations ocasionally put them over the edge and into the "fly away" zone.
 
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