Powderfunnel with Drop Tube Help Resolve this Issue?

[.50 Cal Cow]

Was attempting to load some test 260 rem loads with 140gr ballistic tips and H4831SC in virgin nosler brass. Had the die set to a coal length of 2.850" and loaded up to 44.3gr. While getting to the high 43-low44gr I observed some powder crunch but did not feel/sound any worse than a compressed varget 308 load I done. However after rechecking everything once done I observed that at 43.7, 44.0 and 44.3gr loads the coal had changed and appeared that the powder pushed the bullet back up the neck with the newest length now being almost 2.900" (0.050" longer than where the die was set)

Questions now
1- how the hell did nosler get 46.0gr of this powder in a case let alone at a coal of 2.800 to consider that their max?

2- for those with experience in the realm would getting a powder funnel with a drop tube be something that would help enough to settle the powder down to where I could get cartridge length to shrink 0.050"?

3- if "2" would work does anyone have any recommendations on a good powder funnel with tube that will accomplish this?

Being that I have over 7lbs of this powder leftover from another cartridge I no longer intend to use it for it would be real nice if I could put it to use for this application.

 

[remiglockoholic]

I personally don't run compressed loads but here's a tool

http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1308

 

[Trevor300wsm]

The best powder funnel/drop tube you can buy is the 21st Century model. They are awesome. I use them on all my loads. I have a 6"'model I use to cram hefty amounts of Varget into .308 & .223. This will solve your problem.....but don't create a even bigger one by getting into over pressure issues.

 

[.50 Cal Cow]

I personally don't run compressed loads but here's a tool

http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1308

Interesting concept and thanks for pointing out an alternative.

To Trevor - thanks for the recommendation and feedback I'll look around on one. As for over pressure I'm planning on starting low and working up. Goal is to try and get anything over 2600fps (20" barrel) and if it doesn't look like I'll be anywhere close by time I get to 44ish grains I'll probably move onto another powder.

 

[dauntedfuture]

a 4-6" drop tube will help quite a bit. Lee makes a set that works of for less then 10.00

 

[Down South]

I use the 21st Century drop tube as well (10 inch) when using H4350 in my FTR rig, all of John's products are top notch quality......Pour slowly and you'll be surprised at how much powder you can cram in there.

 

[Powermac]

A drop tube will help you quite a bit, have not really taken exact measurements though.
As a example my 308 with virgin Lapua brass, TTSX 150 gr, COAL 2.8776,.001 neck tension, with N150 using a Satern funnel i ran 46,5 grains, using a 10" drop tube from 21st i run 47,5 grains, while seating pressure being within 5 psi. compared to the previous load.
The loads are compressed either way though.

Another thing you can try if you don't have one at hand is a small vibration motor like a shaver,and hold the filled case to it, will help compress the load a bit.

Another vote for Johns powder funnels, they are excellent, have 2 of each (3,6,10") along with adapters for all my calibers.
They are of plastic that won't give you static problems like some of the cheaper ones, and the quality of the product is top notch as everything he makes.
Another important part is that the customer service is great.

Powder Funnel

One thing you will need if using the 10" tubes is a loading block that has plenty of case support.

 

[07yzryder]

anyone have them in stock?

also does not compressing the powder help increase velocity without increasing pressure?

 

[Milo 2.5]

also does not compressing the powder help increase velocity without increasing pressure?

I do believe a compressed load can be a more stable or consistent load. But TOO much powder is too much powder, know when to quit!

 

[Milo 2.5]

For compressed loads a drop tube is a must, but I question brand loyalty more than tube diameter and pouring method. You kinda have to tip the funnel towards you and get the powder swirling in the fashion water swirls in a toilet. A drop tube funnel wont do jack shit just dumping the charge in and letting it drop?
A Forster-Bonanza Blue ribbon funnel will do anything a 21st Century will do, other than rape your credit card.

 

[07yzryder]

I do believe a compressed load can be a more stable or consistent load. But TOO much powder is too much powder, know when to quit!

of course monitoring pressure signs is a must but if properly compressing a load gets you .2 grains and hits a high node without pressure signs (trying to find a mag length 77gr OTM match load with varget in 223) then ill take it. im getting light pressure signs at 24.5 grs (one primer of 20 was slightly backed out) and a slight crunch, 25 was too much and blew 1 primer out immediately didnt shoot no more.

 

[Milo 2.5]

of course monitoring pressure signs is a must but if properly compressing a load gets you .2 grains and hits a high node without pressure signs (trying to find a mag length 77gr OTM match load with varget in 223) then ill take it. im getting light pressure signs at 24.5 grs (one primer of 20 was slightly backed out) and a slight crunch, 25 was too much and blew 1 primer out immediately didnt shoot no more.

I'm not trying to argue with you here, but if it's velocity you want, why not try a faster burning powder? Believe me, I like speed, and all my loads have flat primers, but not to the point that the pockets are ruined in 4 firings. There's got to be some trade-off, somewhere? And compressing a stick powder makes more sense than a ball powder, not sure what varget is, never fucked with it, but if it is stick, can't be very big. Compressing 50 BMG makes more sense than trying to compress, say VV N540?

 

[07yzryder]

I'm not trying to argue with you here, but if it's velocity you want, why not try a faster burning powder? Believe me, I like speed, and all my loads have flat primers, but not to the point that the pockets are ruined in 4 firings. There's got to be some trade-off, somewhere? And compressing a stick powder makes more sense than a ball powder, not sure what varget is, never fucked with it, but if it is stick, can't be very big. Compressing 50 BMG makes more sense than trying to compress, say VV N540?

no worries on the comment, i don't see it as arguing. Varget works in my 308 for the 175s and for my plinking loads i can trim the case and fill it to the neck with powder and load the 55gr. gets me 2 moa which is fine for plinking. for this reason i have about 14 lbs on hand. Plus with the powder shortage getting a faster powder inst always the easiest. I will probably pick up some CFE 223 as its faster and i can get more velocity with no compression and see how that works.

my comments were just more to learn for myself as im not new to reloading but this is the first time i've dealt with compressed powders where i needed to worry about pressure.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Try some IMR 3031, fill the case and hang on!
Not directed at you here, but so many people can't seem to fire a gun without Varget, H4350, H1000, that they've dug a hole for themselves that may take years to climb out of. I guess if you're 1st in line, you're ok, I'm done.

 

[07yzryder]

lol no worries, i like having varget on hand cause its versatile, but ill be testing some other powders now that they are starting to be back in stock. and sorry not cfe 223 but ramshot tac. i hear it meters well and gets those big 22 pills moving quick.

for h1000 its money in my lapua....

 

[Milo 2.5]

lol no worries, i like having varget on hand cause its versatile, but ill be testing some other powders now that they are starting to be back in stock. and sorry not cfe 223 but ramshot tac. i hear it meters well and gets those big 22 pills moving quick.

for h1000 its money in my lapua....

I rest my case? Ever tried VV N570 in that Lapua? but it's actually more elusive then the Hodgdon's. I sent a shitload of it to Vegas earlier this year.

 

[07yzryder]

i use what i can get my hands on hahaha as you said its elusive. Im always open to testing new powders and not stuck in a rut, but when i can get my hands on a powder i know works then im not going to complain.

where in vegas did you send it IE personal or business address? does it work well with the 300gr pills? funny you mention VV had a guy from alaska tell me that is less sensitive then varget and runs a million times better.

 

[Onewolf42]

Questions now
1- how the hell did nosler get 46.0gr of this powder in a case let alone at a coal of 2.800 to consider that their max?

Being that I have over 7lbs of this powder leftover from another cartridge I no longer intend to use it for it would be real nice if I could put it to use for this application.

#1) What brass was Nosler using and what brass are you using?

#2) I don't think 4831SC is appropriate for a 20" 260 Rem if you're looking for good velocity. You might try RL-17.

 

[Milo 2.5]

i use what i can get my hands on hahaha as you said its elusive. Im always open to testing new powders and not stuck in a rut, but when i can get my hands on a powder i know works then im not going to complain.

where in vegas did you send it IE personal or business address? does it work well with the 300gr pills? funny you mention VV had a guy from alaska tell me that is less sensitive then varget and runs a million times better.

A friend hauled it, personal. Heavier the bullet, the better! Esp in overbore cases, but 338 Lapua isn't that.

 

[.50 Cal Cow]

#1) What brass was Nosler using and what brass are you using?

#2) I don't think 4831SC is appropriate for a 20" 260 Rem if you're looking for good velocity. You might try RL-17.

Nosler doesn't list brand brass in their load data just h2o capacity with seems small compared to what I measured (perhaps they're using usable case capacity) nonetheless my original comment was more tongue and cheek/my attempt at beig a smart ass as obviously everything is dependent upon everything so it's rather irrelevant to my problem.

As for powder choice I have 7+ lbs sitting around and would love to repurpose it for this. I'm not chasing top velocity but believe I should accomplish everything I need from this load if I can get any accurate node over 2600fps which doesn't appear to be all that unreasonable or unsafe. If I can't get this to work I'll use a different powder and not loose any sleep.

Called 21st century today they are out of stock for next few weeks. I'll look around at other options. Thanks all for the support

 

[Powermac]

For compressed loads a drop tube is a must, but I question brand loyalty more than tube diameter and pouring method. You kinda have to tip the funnel towards you and get the powder swirling in the fashion water swirls in a toilet. A drop tube funnel wont do jack shit just dumping the charge in and letting it drop?
A Forster-Bonanza Blue ribbon funnel will do anything a 21st Century will do, other than rape your credit card.

Not advocating brand loyalty, I use them because they have a few advantages some of the cheaper ones don't from my experience, they all do work after all it is a simple funnel.
And yes the funnels will more easily make the powder swirl into the case if they are slightly tilted, a straight drop will still help compress the powder a bit but not as effectively.

Used/owned Lee, Lyman, Rcbs, Redding, Forster, Saturn and 21st funnels.

The Saturn funnels are nice and works well, although they have a short drop so not ideal for compressed loads, and they are caliber specific
if you have a lot of calibers they will end up being the most expensive in the end any way.

The Forster funnel is a okay design and better then the other options from Lee, Lyman, RCBS and Redding.
Especially for compressed loads, but i also found it has a few undesireable features for my use.
This one and the four mentioned above have a tendency of becoming static, so that sometimes a few kernels of powder will stick here and there.
Also the Forster funnel i had at least, did not have a seamless transfer from funnel to drop tube witch meant this sometimes got a kernel to stick on the edges, and it does so easier due to the static.
Mine got retired when it fell off the bench and one of the 'wings' on the funnel along with a small piece of the funnel broke off.
Maybe the one i got was a lemon,but i was not interested in spending money on another to find out.

Now i weigh my loads down to single kernels to keep my es/sd to a minimum, something witch i have found is very effective in this regard, according to me chrono, and it has helped my groups improve at longer ranges.

Having a funnel that sometimes makes the kernels stick means i have to look over it every time i drop a charge and sometimes use a brush to get them to go where they are supposed to, something i find annoying and a procedure i very much prefer to be without when reloading.


There is some reasons why i prefer the 21st century funnels and that is why i recommended it.
The tube are made of some plastic material,but they have never given meany issues with static or kernels sticking at all.

The different lengths means i can use the 3" version for uncompressed loads where using a longer one would be counterproductive, and the longer drop tubes makes a very good job at making the powder settle in the case when it is needed.

Never had any need for tilting them, being they have a sturdy and thick aluminum funnel on top, and lighter weight plastic below it makes them naturally tilt slightly in the loading blocks when the funnel is put onto the case, as long as there is clearance in the loading blocks of course.

Being top heavy if i drop one it tends to land on the funnel first, and they are sturdy enough to not take any damage from it

Caliber/case adapters are economically priced, and interchangeable between all the drop tubes witch makes them very flexible.
The design work very well and have never spilled a single kernel using one ever.
Instead of covering only the case mouth, or neck they cover about a inch of the case meaning even the 10 inc drop tube, will stand on top of the case with a little tilt induced without any need for support, except for the loading block.

The diameter of the tube is ~0.38" the adapter has a slight funnel to it at the bottom too for support on top of the case mouth too, and the diameter of the hole is ~0.225"

Now the smaller diameter hole might seem like a undesireable feature but i have not seen any results indicating so, as i find them work as well or better at compressing the powder as any other funnels on the market.

In the end now matter what with discussion of equipment much of it boils down to personal preference, and budget.
I just told what works for me and why it does so, each one to they're own though.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Not advocating brand loyalty, I use them because they have a few advantages some of the cheaper ones don't from my experience, they all do work after all it is a simple funnel.
And yes the funnels will more easily make the powder swirl into the case if they are slightly tilted, a straight drop will still help compress the powder a bit but not as effectively.

Used/owned Lee, Lyman, Rcbs, Redding, Forster, Saturn and 21st funnels.

The Saturn funnels are nice and works well, although they have a short drop so not ideal for compressed loads, and they are caliber specific
if you have a lot of calibers they will end up being the most expensive in the end any way.

The Forster funnel is a okay design and better then the other options from Lee, Lyman, RCBS and Redding.
Especially for compressed loads, but i also found it has a few undesireable features for my use.
This one and the four mentioned above have a tendency of becoming static, so that sometimes a few kernels of powder will stick here and there.
Also the Forster funnel i had at least, did not have a seamless transfer from funnel to drop tube witch meant this sometimes got a kernel to stick on the edges, and it does so easier due to the static.
Mine got retired when it fell off the bench and one of the 'wings' on the funnel along with a small piece of the funnel broke off.
Maybe the one i got was a lemon,but i was not interested in spending money on another to find out.

Now i weigh my loads down to single kernels to keep my es/sd to a minimum, something witch i have found is very effective in this regard, according to me chrono, and it has helped my groups improve at longer ranges.

Having a funnel that sometimes makes the kernels stick means i have to look over it every time i drop a charge and sometimes use a brush to get them to go where they are supposed to, something i find annoying and a procedure i very much prefer to be without when reloading.


There is some reasons why i prefer the 21st century funnels and that is why i recommended it.
The tube are made of some plastic material,but they have never given meany issues with static or kernels sticking at all.

The different lengths means i can use the 3" version for uncompressed loads where using a longer one would be counterproductive, and the longer drop tubes makes a very good job at making the powder settle in the case when it is needed.

Never had any need for tilting them, being they have a sturdy and thick aluminum funnel on top, and lighter weight plastic below it makes them naturally tilt slightly in the loading blocks when the funnel is put onto the case, as long as there is clearance in the loading blocks of course.

Being top heavy if i drop one it tends to land on the funnel first, and they are sturdy enough to not take any damage from it

Caliber/case adapters are economically priced, and interchangeable between all the drop tubes witch makes them very flexible.
The design work very well and have never spilled a single kernel using one ever.
Instead of covering only the case mouth, or neck they cover about a inch of the case meaning even the 10 inc drop tube, will stand on top of the case with a little tilt induced without any need for support, except for the loading block.

The diameter of the tube is ~0.38" the adapter has a slight funnel to it at the bottom too for support on top of the case mouth too, and the diameter of the hole is ~0.225"

Now the smaller diameter hole might seem like a undesireable feature but i have not seen any results indicating so, as i find them work as well or better at compressing the powder as any other funnels on the market.

In the end now matter what with discussion of equipment much of it boils down to personal preference, and budget.
I just told what works for me and why it does so, each one to they're own though.

Mac,
I respect all your posts, well thought out and sincere. I clicked on the link provided, did a hasty evaluation of the 21st product and just deemed pricey for what you get? Can't really figure their sizes either, at first it seemed shoulder angle, but no, actually I still can't. One does 22-30cals?
I have the Forster, works for what I need, no hangups, did build one off a RCBS funnel, 8"-3/8" ss tube, flared, epoxied, tube is too big to do any good, powder just free falls if you over dump. That's how I came to the conclusion method is more important than the tool.
I too like 21st products, have turning equipment, would love the concentricity gauge, but am afraid of it's findings

This reloading is about learning, trial and error, buying and trying, then upgrading, I just hate to see people steered toward the most expensive item available, when they may not need or like it. On this forum, Lee products are favored, I've never had one of their pieces in my load room, nor have I had Wilson, or Whidden, or any custom made gear, I do fine. There's money to be spent, and then there's spending smart monies, I guess I'll have to re-evaluate the importance of getting the powder into the case?

 

[918v]

A long drop tube is good.

A long drop tube coupled with slowly trickling in the powder is better.

The powder did not push the bullet back out. That would only happen if you had zero neck tension. What the powder did was increase your seating effort and the bullet swaged into the seater stem as you crammed it into the case. Look at the tips. They are severely marked with a ring, right?

 

[Milo 2.5]

A long drop tube is good.

A long drop tube coupled with slowly trickling in the powder is better.

The powder did not push the bullet back out. That would only happen if you had zero neck tension. What the powder did was increase your seating effort and the bullet swaged into the seater stem as you crammed it into the case. Look at the tips. They are severely marked with a ring, right?

He may have adequate neck tension for a non-compressed load, just not sufficient for compressed seating, saying zero may not apply.

 

[918v]

He's using virgin brass. He has adequate neck tension.

 

[Juma]

Reloaded my mates Vixen 222 with 748 and 63gr Sierra from my Chargemaster. A couple of gentle taps on the bench settled the powder and the base of the projectile was sitting nicely on top of the powder.Not perfect bit it makes a nice load.

 

[.50 Cal Cow]

They are severely marked with a ring, right?

I can suscribe to what your saying. Strangely enough the tips aren't noticeably marked. However, when bringing the lever arm back on the press I definitely observed a little bit of a popping sound from the seating die (forster competition die) which could then likely be the bullet releasing from the stem I guess.

 

[Jeffvn]

I've used one of the Forester 6" drop tube for years. I can't say exactly how much it will compress what you've got going, but in my case I can use loads that QL says are 105% compressed and never hear it crunch or have it impede seating to the proper depth.

I wipe the outside of mine with a dryer sheet (as well as my powder throw) every time I use it so I've not seen any static with mine.

If the combination of slow trickle and use of the drop tube don't get you all the ay there you can always tap the edge of the drop tube with something about 10 times (or have your tumbler turned on and rest it against the tumbler's lid) - vibration will settle the powder down even further. When Loading my 338LM Improved and beta testing some banded solids I once ran a load that was close to 110% (to see if they had a max velocity vis-à-vis stability) and it barely made any crunch when I seated the pills. (granted that is a pain in the butt to do the tapping or vibrating...but we do what we can to make it work)

JeffVN

 

[.50 Cal Cow]

That's encouraging Jeff. QL says this this load should be about 105%. Hopefully I can get this done with just a drop tube and not hae to fuss with my tumbler.