Precision Rifle Series

[Blackhawk 1]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

I’m going to throw this out there, what if the PRS had two matches at different range locations and states on the same weekend instead of scheduling one match every month or two. This would split the shooters up and not everyone is trying to get into one match.

If there is a 150 person waiting list for the current match and about 60 or 70 shooters in that match this would mean there is an excess of shooters and not enough matches.

More matches, more shooters & our sport is up and growing. Now the sponsors sell more product which relates to income so they can also help the sport grow. Everyone makes out. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Lowe Left]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Doug@Blackhawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I&#146;m going to throw this out there, what if the PRS had two matches at different range locations and states on the same weekend instead of scheduling one match every month or two. This would split the shooters up and not everyone is trying to get into one match.

If there is a 150 person waiting list for the current match and about 60 or 70 shooters in that match this would mean there is an excess of shooters and not enough matches.

More matches, more shooters & our sport is up and growing. Now the sponsors sell more product which relates to income so they can also help the sport grow. Everyone makes out. Just my 2 cents.
</div></div>
This is what will most likely happen. Turning away too many shooters means lost revenue and prohibits growth. BTW, PRS member (thought it was the right thing to do) and applied for my first big match, the SHTC: #30 on the waitlist. Realistically there aren't a whole lot more oppotrunities for me due to distance/cost, but I still believe my $75.00 is going to a good cause because it has already grown new matches and should ultimately make MD's hold more "qualifying" matches. I can appreciate LL's take as well, what happens if I never get drawn for a match and therefore never get the opportunity to get to the big finale? Not saying I don't like my laminated card, patch, sticker and raffle ticket. lol

 

[GreatGonzo]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

With 175 paid PRS members, all presumably attempting to register for most of the matches, I can see a scenario where a guy joins, pays his money, attempts to register for every match, and NEVER GETS TO SHOOT A MATCH.

There appear to be no safeguards for this and it could possibly happen to as many as 1/3 of the members of the PRS.

Those people will essentially be donating money to a charity for guys that are really good at shooting rifles.

If the matches are going to be limited, and the number of shooters at a match are going to be limited, then entry should be done on some sort of draw basis. Similar to the way hunting tags are distributed in many states.

 

[Rich Emmons]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Doug@Blackhawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I’m going to throw this out there, what if the PRS had two matches at different range locations and states on the same weekend instead of scheduling one match every month or two. This would split the shooters up and not everyone is trying to get into one match.

If there is a 150 person waiting list for the current match and about 60 or 70 shooters in that match this would mean there is an excess of shooters and not enough matches.

More matches, more shooters & our sport is up and growing. Now the sponsors sell more product which relates to income so they can also help the sport grow. Everyone makes out. Just my 2 cents.
</div></div>

that will happen, provided there are two matches scheduled that exist. and want to play ball!

 

[hugo121175]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

+1.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GreatGonzo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With 175 paid PRS members, all presumably attempting to register for most of the matches, I can see a scenario where a guy joins, pays his money, attempts to register for every match, and NEVER GETS TO SHOOT A MATCH.

There appear to be no safeguards for this and it could possibly happen to as many as 1/3 of the members of the PRS.

Those people will essentially be donating money to a charity for guys that are really good at shooting rifles.

If the matches are going to be limited, and the number of shooters at a match are going to be limited, then entry should be done on some sort of draw basis. Similar to the way hunting tags are distributed in many states. </div></div>

 

[Malibumick]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

There are two options for all shooters and all Match Directors. Be a part of the PRS or not. It's not that difficult.

Has the PRS brought more attention to the world of Tactical Match Shooting YES. If you think not read the 5 plus pages in this thread.

Has "Snipers Hide" been a part of the total growth of Tactical Shooting, in my opinion absolutly.

Are there more shooters than slots available in Matches yes. Solution, more "good" matches. However, starting a new match takes a lot more than the average shooter thinks about.

Just some thoughts...

Richard and all the MD's keep up the great work.

Mick

 

[gugubica]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

Supply and demand. That is what is driving this. There are more shooters, period. This was a trend well before the PRS started.

The answer? More matches. I don't care if MDs make some money or a hell of a good living doing this, in fact, I hope they do. That equates to more supply...a good thing.

I am considering doing a Double match next year. A PRS only match one weekend and an open one the next. The open match would require a new shooter to team up with someone i trust, a Pro-Am type of thing.

The thing is, as a land owner that is willing to open his gates to a bunch of people with firearms, the fact that someone is willing to throw down as a professional shooter is worth a lot to me. I trust most of these guys to not be stupid.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

No MD's I know personally profit by the way...

 

[taliv]

Re: Precision Rifle Series


While PMG is helping on the "more matches" front, I think the real problem is the match format restricts matches to too few people.

Most matches only allow 30-60 people. That has several implications aside from the obvious number of participants. It means the cost of the match is split fewer ways so match fees have to be higher. It also means even with the skyrocketing entry fees at $200-300+ there's still not a lot of money to be made hosting matches (won't even support one guy full time). It means limited exposure for sponsors... their products are only getting shown to 30-60 potential buyers.

So personally, while I would definitely like to see more matches, I think the way to grow the sport is to find ways to adjust the match format so we can have 200 people at a match. That's where we should focus our energy.

(For example, *cough*cough* team matches automatically double the number of shooters that can attend.)

 

[PSYOPS]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

<span style="color: #CC0000">"Supply and demand. That is what is driving this. There are more shooters, period. This was a trend well before the PRS started."</span>
Well said, Brian.

If I want to play, whether I'm an average Joe or a PRS participant, I gotta be quick and for the Score High match, I wasn't.

As long as I have monthly matches and thousands of acres of BLM shooting space in my backyard...I'm happy.

I love this sport!!

 

[Lowe Left]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No MD's I know personally profit by the way...</div></div>

Yep, that would most likely need to change for MDs and ROs. The evolution may need to be a new business model.

 

[Rich Emmons]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

just to get some factual solid numbers on the recent registration
many shooters sent multiple emails

54 slots taken (32 PRS)
71 on waiting list (42 PRS)

Charley did a great job on getting new faces into his match, we discussed this in detail. PRS preference for slots was a non-issue.

If anybody feels duped by me or missed the PRS disclaimer at registration, by all means let's talk and get you taken care of.

 

[AKAce]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

I foresee Lots of matches doing "PRS Only" Matches... so Working class folks east of the Mississippi that have No business in PRS will be prevented from shooting allot of matches.

I shoot as many matches as I can, at as many dif places as I can... Why ? Because they are all unique. What I see with the PRS Format is a bunch of Same Old Shit matches... Same format, no partners blah Blah, Boring ! I like shit mixed up. Don't tell the MD's how to run their match. Figure out how to Modify your Rules to allow partners. It's not like partner matches are a cake walk... you better bring Skills !

Lots of people shoot matches that are Not "Top 20" Shooters... They just love shooting and competing. I believe the Idea of the PRS is good, but many of the methods and rules will alienate people. I already see local matches changing their formats to accommodate PRS. Lets see how many hold up when they forget their Roots.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

Great point and info to back it up Rich.

Tom-good luck with trying to find the venue and support to run that many shooters, most matches that run 60+ shooters have lots of people that have mo llife outside the match for weeks working them as it is. There's a reason that many shooters have no interest in running matches, yet run their suck on how it should be done-because it is hard work and you can never make everyone happy.

I think Micks latest post sums it up pretty well!

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No MD's I know personally profit by the way...</div></div>

The SH Matches have turned a profit for more than quite some time... not only for me but for RO.

And not to be a dick, but the PRS trend got the attention and started here, so was it organic to the PRS or a by product of Sniper's Hide. I'll let the viewer decide that one, but right now I just see it as, how someone figured out a way to monetize the participation, outside of being a match director. Not necessarily a bad thing, but really when you look at the big picture it boils down to this core principle, it's pay to play.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the way to grow the sport is to find ways to adjust the match format so we can have 200 people at a match. That's where we should focus our energy.
</div></div>
Frank and I set the 2012 SHC at 100 slots just to start -- I expect it to scale to 200+ shooters in the future. (At the 24HSAC and TBTC we have room for at least 40 teams.) There is no reason you can't run a true field match with 200+ shooters; you just need more resources to make it happen. The answer does not lie in jamming more shooters on a firing line, IMO.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No MD's I know personally profit by the way...</div></div>
They're doing it wrong.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

Wow.

In the end, I (like most I've met at the few matches I've attended) am just a guy that shoots when and where I can. I'll leave the business model to those looking to makes buck off us.

Again Frank, I still don't see where any of what I (or pretty much anyone else) has brought up infers disrespect to your or your site's role in making precision rifle what it is today.

 

[Rich Emmons]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

I think the way to grow the sport is to find ways to adjust the match format so we can have 200 people at a match. That's where we should focus our energy.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank and I set the 2012 SHC at 100 slots just to start -- I expect it to scale to 200+ shooters in the future.
</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Great news! we'd love to add another match that gets more and new shooters in all across the board.
So... what say you? </span>still waiting..

 

[Irrigator]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Doug@Blackhawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I&#146;m going to throw this out there, what if the PRS had two matches at different range locations and states on the same weekend instead of scheduling one match every month or two. This would split the shooters up and not everyone is trying to get into one match.

If there is a 150 person waiting list for the current match and about 60 or 70 shooters in that match this would mean there is an excess of shooters and not enough matches.

More matches, more shooters & our sport is up and growing. Now the sponsors sell more product which relates to income so they can also help the sport grow. Everyone makes out. Just my 2 cents.
</div></div> The idea of more matches seems to be a good idea for the obvious reasons. The down side in my opinion would be to the sponsors of these matches. More matches mean more donations to the prize table. There has to be a point where this does not become cost effective.

Shooters have become accustomed to large prize tables, and if not, the shoot sometimes gets a bad rap. Besides guns, stocks, action certs, scopes/spotting, the other prizes on the table seems minor to some. The reality is, most of the prizes get sold out in the parking lot or here on the hide. If I was a sponsor I would get fustrated seeing my donation for sale after a match on a website.

Maybe if some of the matches had good prizes for the top 10 to 15 and that was it, adding more matches could be successful. It is going to take the participants to not expect huge prize tables and concentrate on getting better and gaining respect to gain entry in the larger national shoots.

More competitions is a great idea, but as competitors, we will need to adjust our thinking and expectations.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll leave the business model to those looking <span style="text-decoration: underline">to makes buck off us</span>.</div></div>
Pretty strong negative connotation in the underlined phrase-

Matches that lose money are not sustainable and given the effort involved breaking even at a major match is not sustainable either. More broadly, the sponsors that give so generously are in it to make money too; after all, they make their living by selling products to shooters. In both cases it comes down to if the value of the product is worth the cost to the individual.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No MD's I know personally profit by the way...</div></div>
They're doing it wrong.
</div></div>

As a guy that's been running matches for a while that's a pretty strong statement that match directors should personally profit off of shooters.
I never said a match shouldn't be in the black and self sustaining. Don't try to backpedal that you didn't say a MD is "is doing it wrong" if he's not personally making a buck off the shooters. Pretty strong statement on your behalf Zak.

Your statement above is what will keep CMG from seeing a nickel of mine.

Again, no MD's I know of personally profit off the shooters...at least the matches I choose to attend.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

I don't know shit about running, designing, or winning shooting comps. I've never been to one in North America and the last one I was in was a boozy stag weekend in Czech years ago.

If I don't play, I don't pay. Fuck this idea of waiting in line behind the cliques and 'in crowd'. If I want to be treated like a second class citizen while having my money taken I'll talk to the IRS or a politician.

Rock on Comp. Dynamics!

 

[mparry]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll leave the business model to those looking <span style="text-decoration: underline">to makes buck off us</span>.</div></div>
Pretty strong negative connotation in the underlined phrase-

Matches that lose money are not sustainable and given the effort involved breaking even at a major match is not sustainable either. More broadly, the sponsors that give so generously are in it to make money too; after all, they make their living by selling products to shooters. In both cases it comes down to if the value of the product is worth the cost to the individual.</div></div>

I have hosted several Major matches and guarantee 100% payback with the exclusion of meals and shirts which by the way go to the participants also. And will do it again with no hope of breaking even. So yes it can and is being done repeatedly. The question is will you do it?

 

[poison123]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know shit about running, designing, or winning shooting comps. I've never been to one in North America and the last one I was in was a boozy stag weekend in Czech years ago.

If I don't play, I don't pay. Fuck this idea of waiting in line behind the cliques and 'in crowd'. If I want to be treated like a second class citizen while having my money taken I'll talk to the IRS or a politician.

Rock on Comp. Dynamics! </div></div>


I 100% agree with this. I'm honestly waiting to see how the PRS thing shakes out after this first year. But I seriously dislike that a certain number of spots are held for PRS members......remind me how that grows the sport again?

 

[Scottmilk9]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

As a blanket statement for all who want to read it:

"If you think you can do it better, then do it"

My idea of a match is marksmanship, not running a 10K faster than anyone else. But those who run this type of match, my hat is off to them, they may have the folks who like doing that.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

No match has given more back to the competitor than SH, we set the bar for prizes and donations, so this idea you can't make money off a match while giving back is is crazy. We have been doing it for some time now, to include some pretty expensive stages like the helicopter stage, which burns 5 competitors fees per hour.

Steve, thou protest too much and you're overly defensive stance is pretty funny. You won't participate in a match that makes money off the shooter, I guess you'll be pretty much staying local then. Then again you have to define making money, if the place is taking that money and investing in infrastructure do you consider that a profit, breaking even or losing money ? Cause seems to me reinvesting money you made back in your range is making money, how you choose to use it is up to the MD.

As I asked Rich and will repeat, what does this series do for SH that SH hasn't already done for itself ? And I am not talking money either... Matches, I entertain offers all the time to host matches all over the country. Shooters, last time I checked we sold out in seconds, so nothing there, Prizes, hmm, I have all the sponsors wrapped up, I require it up front and in fact take less in cash to the business to make sure SH is giving back to the community, no help needed there, marketing --- hello, stats are on the left, so where is my incentive to play ? Answer me that Steve, I mean I have supported your match with prizes, so how does this help SH moving forward ?

That is part of my pointing out the facts on the ground.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

Too bad, you'll miss out on some excellent events.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

Frank, what PRS can do for SH is between you and those that run PRS. I'm not one of those people. Actually I'm a guy that paid my PRS fee and is currently on the wait list for Charley's match.

I did not say "makes money" I said that I didnt know any match directors that personally profit from match fees. I understand the costs of choppers and such, because I remember POF writing the check to cover the full cost while I worked there-not the match fees...
I expect my match fees to go to supplies and venue to make future matches better, and I expect those entities running matches to be transparent about monies if asked if the are not set up as a profit making entity.

It seems there are personal agendas afoot at whether PRS succeeds or not, and mine isn't one if them. I would like to see success to all those that support the practical precision rifle community.

I again have not tried to slight you or the site. I've been here to long to forget that I was a dirt shooter with a duplex when I found the hide...

I'm out, I'm gonna go hope I get in the next major I can afford to attend.

 

[dieselgeek]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

I go to every match I can afford. I've met a great bunch of guys, and don't mind finishing towards the bottom when I'm shooting with the best. When I go to smaller matches, I finish much higher, but it's not about that. Hell on the bigger matches, even a scrub like me brings home some pretty cool stuff. I'm always giddy with the lil prize pack I take home and stuff off the prize table. I don't see the guys holding matches where I'm at making money off it. I don't see how the can.


Also I have no idea how some people can go though life being such negative bitchy assholes ALL the time. Get over your self for shits sake.

 

[NOMAD]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

Glad to come home to some good creative debates!!

Its funny how all those tough questions Rob and I asked months ago that we wanted answers for are all being brought to light again and for the sake of the shooters. But I guess we were being trouble makers back then.

It still amazes me how the same 3-4 people keep popping off at the mouth spewing BS out both sides and keep double talking on everything. But then when there pecker gets smacked they want to claim no foul or thats not what they meant.

I really wish people would read through topics and ideas and think about there responses before they just pile on saying something is so bad or good. Happens way to much.

The Facts

1. The matches and MD dont need the PRS. The matches have always filled before this season and they will continue to.

2. The PRS needs the MD and matches in order to have the series.

3. The sport is growing just ask the MD taking all the entries.

4. As stated in the PRS rules that just because you are PRS member that DOESN'T gurantee you a spot in ANY match!! They are just the tracking center for the results.

5. The PRS isnt here to make a bunch of rules and tell match directors how to run their business.

6. Lottery or trying to sort out some type of you get to pick matches x,y,z and you are guarenteed is BS as well. You know when registration is sign up like everyone else. Its your responsability NOT the PRS to get your points. Some people shoot alot and some dont. To be honest I shoot alot and I dont think that I should be limited to what I can shoot for matches when I have been involved in this sport for 15 years. As stated if you were a billionaire and pulled into Datona with a car and wanted to race they would run you off. You need to earn your spot in the field. I want to shoot against the best not some lottery drawn field.

7. The problem is there is to many PRS members, not enough match spots!! 12 matches at 60 shooters = 720 total match spots 175 PRS shooters x 3 matches = 525 match spots so that means there is 195 non PRS spots for all the major matches for bodies to fill. Thats not considering multiple PRS members attending multiple events. There is a log jam with no room to GROW the sport because we have now made it a mad rush to get the required matches in.

When it shakes out i will bet that 50% or more of the PRS shooters do not get the required events in and there will be very limited new shooters to attend matches to grow the sport.

8. Sponsors - how many times can MD goto the well? The more matches the smaller prizes tables will become. I have heard from numerous MD that getting stuff has become increasingly hard.

9. Match fees- they keep going up and up and up. The norm was always $150 now we are in the mid $200's creeping up to $300. When is it going to end? Matches expenses already on average cost shooters $800-$1200 bucks to shoot a match.

10. MD and matches making a profit!! I think they damn well should if they are busting there ass to run a match then you should make money. As stated if you are getting gear, equipment, steel or whatever after the match is over and you didnt bank any greenbacks then guess what? You still made a profit.

11. Scoring - this year we had major scoring issues at virtually every match we shot!! EVERY ONE!!! This sucks on multiple levels. I dont care where I come in I want the correct score. It also effects prize distribution and now it will effect PRS point standings. Match scores should be posted daily to fix any issues on the spot. Shooters should be able to review there targets and verify score when possible.

This is only the tip of the iceburg for problems and issues reguarding this.

 

[Malibumick]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

If someone would please answer this simple question for me:

Why the hard on for the PRS?

And I will reiterate what I said in an earlier post, you have 2 options as a shooter or a MD, you may choose to join the PRS or you may choose not to join the PRS. Again it's not that difficult!

(on a side note, I am getting a good laugh at y'all though)

Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays

Mick

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

What's so damn wrong about the guys making money from the comps? Who says it has to be a charity or a 'goodness of heart' gig?

If it means fun, interesting gigs that cause you to train, learn new skills and lets noobs join in and not get filled within the first micro-second then I'm all for them making margin, seeing value in making the gigs more frequent and (closer to PA please) varied in locations.

All I want, is value for my money. Profits are good and justified if value is delivered in exchange.

 

[Zak Smith]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

Excellent post NOMAD

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

Merry Christmas Mick,

I can tell you from my perspective I have no personal <span style="font-style: italic">hard on</span> for the PRS. This thread started in Oct, and if you look back I have not made a single comment in this thread until Today. In that time my phone, emails, PMs, etc, has been filled with discussion of this, every week since it started in some capacity. Other than my SB comments last month I have made no grand statements on the subject. I have listened, I spoke to people, as competitors, sponsors and a match director and I have weighed the pros and cons of participating from both a competitors stand point and a match directors standpoint. I have also been asked on numerous occasions to include the SH Cup for 2012.

The fact I saw some of my questions come to light today which prompted me to respond was just a case of timing and a direct reflection on some of the issues I saw early on. So I made a decision to post, like in the shout box last month the defense took the field and wanted to push back hard and fast, so I expanded on my observations. It was this same rabid defense that lead the door to the other site that copied this one to be opened. They didn't like what I had to say so it was instantly,<span style="font-style: italic"> "we'll show him"</span>, great not the first time won't be the last. But make no mistakes my observations are no way malicious.

Could this be made to work, sure, but not as I see it today or unfolding in its current form tomorrow. And that is just one man's opinion, everyone from competitor to match director is free to take it or leave it. Exactly as you said.

In my discussion with Rich I did not just complain and move on, I offered potential alternatives, some off the cuff, others more thought out as alternatives, but I did not simply shake my head in a vacuum and say, "no good" . And to answer a comment, no you all didn't steal my thunder, as if 100 people could.

I get it people paid money, they want it too work, they hope it grows and they are part of it, clearly the bulk of the intensions are good. But that doesn't change the fact, as Tony pointed out the math does not add up to success, at least not with my calculator. You guys may get it worked out but I am still suspect, I believe it only promotes the Top 20%, leaving the bottom 60 by the roadside. Simply my opinion... easily dismissed.

A key factor in popularity of the tactical competitions and the training sections on SH is, if you notice, any other commercial entity is required to pay a fee to advertise. Not those hosting matches, nor those conducting training. The door is wide open on here for people to host, post, and discuss competitions and training. In many ways this section was in direct competition with me personally. Still, I made no effort to monetize this segment of the site. This is what they call a clue. It promotes the growth which is what we all asked for... as well I made prizes for the SH Matches a part of the commercials vendors commitment. Why not just take the money and simply ask for prizes, most would not hesitate, especially when competition was light ? Heck I spend every day at SHOT I could have easily walked the floor begging for prizes, but nope, didn't need to, in fact many seek me out just to give me prizes. Because it was more important to give back to the shooters and to promote the matches than to take the money and shove it in my pockets. I still made money on the competitions, but I made more good will. Another clue and what I see as a missing element.

Mick I hope you all have a great Holiday Season, and believe me I have looked, listened and questioned those in and around this sport and this concept. I spent over an hour with Rich on the phone last week. My opinion hasn't changed and many involved can take issue with me and that opinion, dismissing it is easy, and I wouldn't blame them at all. But it's still my opinion, given without malice.

Best of luck too you all, and a Merry Christmas.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

Not that I will ever be in the hunt for the top prizes, but I sure do enjoy the prizes I have received, and I thanked every business that contributed to the prize tables I got to choose from, after my first SH match at RO I thanked you Frank for Snipers Hide, and you made a gay joke which I still think is funny to this day, but I don't shoot in matches for prizes, I do it for fun, with the only goal of not finishing last. The PRS is a natural progression in this sport\hobby\training endeavor, it needs to start somewhere, I'm sure the NFL wasn't perfect nor MLB, or NASCAR was perfect from the start, and I am also sure that those who did the building blocks to get those organizations to where they are today were happy with there beginnings. So keep the ego's out it, work together to make it better instead of trying to squash it into a frito pie that stinks.

 

[MGN]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

Great post 427Cobra - awesome engine also - I, too, shoot for the competition not the prize table. One of the running jokes I have with my wife is that I spend X amount of dollars on a match T-Shirt, and that my T-Shirts are more expensive than her clothes. Also, if an organization chooses to support and grow this type of shooting competition, I say good and thank you, I will help out by supporting it - like I do with IDPA membership and more than likely USPSA someday. Now to Mick....... Merry Christmas, Mick - looking forward to shooting with you some more in 2012, and you are right everyone has a choice.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

I don't think I am in the minority with the following statements:

I don't care if a MD makes money. If i enjoy the match, I will continue to go.

A $250 plus entry fee does not phase me at all. When you consider the other costs assosiated with shooting a match, ihyt is a small percentage. If it is a fun match, it is worth it to me.

I, personally, like to shoot in high level comps. I am by no meens a top level shooter, but I prefer to shoot against them.

I would like to see a raking system for matches, new shooters, mid level shooters, top level, etc. If people are making money putting on matches, they will have no problem putting on more.

I appreciate any prizes I pull off a table, but don't plan on getting any really good stuff any time soon. I support companies that support this sport. It makes a difference to me.

I have no illusions that I will be invited to the PRS finale. That's not why i joined. I am not the 20% and I don't care. I still support it cause I think it will be good for the sport, if not now, someday.

The PRS is a cool thing, but come on, it had nothing to do with the recent registration overload. These guys would have all tied to get in with or without the PRS, because they think this stuff is kind of fun.

I do this because I enjoy it. I hope I get more options to do so.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

Oh, and there are a lot of good points in this thread. I hope no one discounts them because they think they are being attacked.

And, merry Christmas, Mick, enjoy the show.

Merry Christmas to everyone else, too.

 

[Rich Emmons]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

First Nomad, thanks for your response very well put and I would like to touch on a few things tho I'll keep it short cuz I'm pecking this out on my I-phone

Going straight to the" Facts"
1,2,3,4 and 5 are spot on correct let me just highlight on # 4
We are a tracking center for results, but hopefully we can become much more than that. As with any association WE can have a posistive influence on our shooters, matches, and our entire shooting Sport. Bringing fresh ideas to the table, in depth very specific polled AAR's ( in which we just completed the 1st one and it will be continued to be used throughout the season and will be an invaluable tool to make the proper suggestive changes here and there),

our site isn't quite there yet but you will begin to understand as it develops We want people to know each other by recognition and and first name, not just hiding behind a keyboard and a handle in ambiguity. It will get there. WE want to be able to share information, perhaps better methods on scoring, or alternatives in stage design etc. etc. it will be a sharing center not a beat down session.

#6 I'll skip out on for now, all I'll say for now is I totally support getting new faces in these shooting matches, how it is done is a MD thing and PRS can't be the blaming goat.

#7 "Logjam" let's not panic just yet . We have and will continue to bring more matches on. It's not exactly easy to grab a level playing field and it's not even 2012 yet. Just nitpicking here dont take offense but I will touch on the word "required." If your in it for the points race alone perhaps but many people will get in the finale with just one or two matches I believe this to be true.

8,9,10 and 11 you again are spot on.
I would like to add to 11 that committee members and most everyone one I have talked to would love to see MD's take the approach of scoring challenge periods before final results, this will resolve any inputting errors before they become final. This was used at NorCal for two years we adopted it at the first PRS match at the Lone Star Challenge, Phoenix is adopting it, and hopefully the list goes on and on. It's posistive growing changes like this is what we all want as competitors. And Mr. Frank that is what we can bring to the shooting community and to you and Snipershide I'd much rather work in a supportive role with you to bring posistives to the sport than against.
So again, about that match sir? Let's talk some more.
Thank you again Tony.

 

[Rich Emmons]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

Btw we have sent emails out but so others know, those unpaid registrants (35 or so) have been given a deadline notice of January 15th for payment. If payment is not received by then we will drop the name on our list and finalize our capping # per committee decision.

 

[Sleeper]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

Wow, just by signing up and sending in $75 I went from bottom 60% to top 20%! That's awesome!!! Get a life. PRS shooter are Joe Blow and Everyman.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

Rich

I applaud your attempt at clarifying the position but it is still a bit confusing to me. It appears that the benefits you see are to standardize the matches and scoring. By helping match directors move in a direction you would like to see as a real test of a precision rifle match. I know we have talked about things like handguns and helicopters, so to me you are making it too cookie cutter.

I have been thinking about it and here is my thought on how it should have went.

1. I would not have charged people to join, but i get, and think it can pay for site maintenance and development because that is where the PRS needed to start.

What that means is, Everyone can and should join to get listed and ranked. No cap, no log jams, just bring everyone in keep a clearing house of shooters like you stated but on a bigger scale.

2. All matches should be allowed, local or national, doesn't matter. No PRS preferred treatment status quo for the match director in terms of how they register folks to their match. In return a PRS match agrees to certain scoring standards, agrees to "X" amount of stages that highlight the precision rifle and will return shooter scoring to PRS. Also they are included in your AAR process. They are the vehicle, the individual matches themselves helping to promote the sport not only nationally so you can get on tv or something, but locally where it it counts.

Scores are verified and there is a alibi period like you started at Predator. You help stop scoring problems before they start.

You have no more than 1 "PRS" match Nationally. Maybe you ask the MD for two weekends to accommodate more shooters. You use the ranking to set the field and you bargain for a reduced match fee based on your numbers. PRS does not make a shooter run a circuit, instead:

You rank matches too towards your overall points.

Shoot a Match you earn 2 pts.
Win a Match you get a 10pt bonus
Take the number of shooters and reverse it for score, 50 shooters, 1st place earns 50 points, second 49, etc.

Have a point system for the ranges, 100 - 200 yards, 1pt, and on, 501 to 600 would be 5 pts. etc...

Build a scoring sheet for MD, maybe write an Excel Template for them to use, you can help them with COF by way of a set of standardized stages they can draw from if they so want to. Using the AARs from everyone you can help improve all matches not just the big dogs. You may find a diamond among the coal.

You become essentially a governing body and not a vehicle for shooters to move to the front of the line, or to force them to compete in a circuit. Shooters are not a NASCAR, they can shooting 10 monthly matches locally and it should count for something ! They can shoot locally or nationally and the points acquired will be reflected of the type of match, the number of shooters, and the distance shot. You bring them all in the fold on a sliding scale not create an exclusive boys club for the shooting elite.

Trust me I am condensing this but I think you get my point. That is where my issue lies, and this is how i would have envisioned it working if anyone asked for my opinion. And since I been accused of sticking my nose in places, here it is.

The concept is sound, the direction is off as it currently stands.

 

[Rich Emmons]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

Thanks Frank for clarifying your opinion and position on this matter, of course I value true input and do not not dismiss any of your suggestions. most of what you brought forth were all things we thought about in the conception models but ultimately decided, Hey, 3 Gun Nation has a working model, let's try and keep it simple and follow that approach. I'm not getting paid off this, every dollar (about $12,000 CASH DOLLARS at this point) generated goes back to the Finale Event, and season events as we can manage it. <span style="font-weight: bold"> thanks again SH</span> everything is 100% volunteer effort from the website design to the thank you letters you got in the mail.

Please also understand that I do not not wish for cookie cutter events, different venues bring different approaches to how a match can be set up, they are all different, that is great and that is one thing we all like. We can bring more input to a match director from a PRS competitor standpoint without having to blow smoke or worry about not getting invited back next year cause we gave an honest assessment. Ex. thru PRS AAR: If 90% of the people surveyed said your match scoring was very inconsistent, then you are doing a disservice to the shooter by doing the same thing next time. Huge Prize tables or not you will get your new faces but you lose the value of the match and the best competitors.

As to rest of your concept it may be better or a better direction.
But really it comes down to.. I got a job man and I'm just holding on to that hopefully through the holidays, I'm doing all I can do bring on "host" matches that are fair as possible to bring a great, even as possible playing field, and once we get that, Man all I'm asking for is a score-sheet from you. It's really too simple. I don't have the manpower, brainpower or time to be a governing body so we are running with what we got, we have the supporters, maybe too many. maybe less at the end of the year, hell who knows maybe more, But we will do everything possible to listen to the competitors in it as to making it better moving forward.

One other thing to consider, The PRS as grabbed the membership of the majority of the best shooters in the country less a few in Colorado. We have got huge sponsorship interest and support, We have industry leaders, some great competitive minds with decades of experience, some of the best MD's in the country backing it. WE have a huge responsibility to give it our best effort and WE will. Furthermore your free to support it or not, be critical of it if you want, offer better ideas has you have, but drawing a line in the sand and pissing on OUR boots, wouldn't be be any good.
Merry Christmas all, I got to get back to work!

 

[bmarc69]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

I have no dog in this fight. Just want to give my opinion for whatever that is worth. I can't join the PRS. I would be wasting my money. With ammo cost, traveling expenses, food on the road, and lodging there is no way I could ever compete with guys that will shoot 8 or 10 of these matches. I have been shooting tactical precision rifle matches for 2 years now and have only got 3 large matches under my belt. At this rate the only way I could qualify for the final match would be to win a major match. There may only be a couple matches close enough to me and held on weekends I could attend. What happens when I've paid my membership and don't make it into either match? I have also noticed that some PRS matches are opening registration early for PRS members. That pretty much removes that match as an oppertunity for me to shoot because I'm not a member. Even if it's 20 miles from my house and affordable. I don't think I'm a great shooter but I honestly feel that I could finish in the top 50% at these matches. However, with the way things are set up I feel like no matter how well I can shoot I'm stuck in the lower 80% that others have mentioned. What I, like many others, can do is shoot in local matches. Driving distance from home. Reasonable entry fees. Manageable round counts. More oppertunities for more shooters.

Another issue that has been mentioned in this thread was team matches. More shooters could be run through a match in a given time frame. Entry fees could be lower per person and still be more profitable for the venues and MD. Travel costs could be split by teammates. Each team member would only be responsible for 1/2 the total round count. It just seems to me that teams would provide more oppertunities for more shooters.

I feel there is no need for a standardized scoring system. It was mentioned that 3GN was a model to follow for the PRS. They have several scoring systems being used throughout their matches. The USPSA matches in their series use their own system. The outlaw matches use their own. There are even some MDs that use their own exclusively for their match. The most important thing about scoring systems is that they are the same for everyone shooting that match and that no single skill set will outweigh another in the determination of the winner. In the end standardizing things only takes away from the individuality of each match and MD. As long as every shooter is scored the same way during the same match, the ranking or percentage factor will still work for final standings. Also there is no membership fee for 3GN. You compete to qualify for their championship match.

Sorry for being so long winded. I wish the PRS the best of luck and continued success. Unfortunately for now I feel it will only showcase the top shooters. I am just having a hard time seeing how this system will bring in new competitors. I can see how it promotes the sport. I can see how it promotes sponsors and their products. I just don't see the oppertunities for a new competitive shooter to compete against the elite.

Thanks for your time and Merry Christmas to all.

 

[Lucks]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bmarc69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just don't see the oppertunities for a new competitive shooter to compete against the elite.
</div></div>
Simply put....

New shooter....
1. Joins the PRS (Basically, pays $75 membership fee)
2. Signs up for a (PRS) match
3. Goes to the match and gets to compete against your so called "elite"

Behind the scenes...
Match Directors send results to PRS
PRS awards points and posts ranking/standing on website
At the end of the year the PRS invites top points earners to compete in a match with a huge cash prize generated from the PRS membership fee money...

 

[lroseen]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

I joined the PRS and am signed up for the Score High Match. That said I do have my reservations about how this is being organized as well.

I joined because I love the concept of creating a formulated league or organization for precision rifle competition. That being said I think capping the registration is the wrong way to go. I really agree with a lot of what Frank emphasized as better ways to go. Allow smaller matches to be part of the series. Have your 12 or more main events that can get someone a direct seat at the championship however allow points at the rest of the smaller matches.

Some ways to make this work better might be

1. Allow smaller local matches to enter and base the points the shooters earn for all matches off of how many shooters participate in the match. X amount of points per 5 or 10 people who shoot the match. Point breakdown would work the same as it appears on the website, you get x% of the points based off of how you placed in the match. The 12 or so largest matches would have reserved slots in the championship for the winner. Possibly anybody who places within the top say 3 at more than one major match would also receive a place at the championship. The remainder of the slots for the championship would be strictly points based.

2. Get rid of the Cap on Registration. I don't think a small fee to register is out of the question however lower it to say $20 or $30 by doing this you have an unlimited number of people who can register and you still receive funding for the championship and any other expenses for other matches.

3. Open up a team classification and have a team championship. There are plenty of local and major team matches already why not capitalize on them and support the sport with them as well.

Overall I think something like this needs to support the smaller matches and the little/ new guys to long range shooting more, as well as give the opportunity for anybody to play, only those who prove themselves make it to the championship. I think the concept is great but if registration remains capped and the smaller venues are not allowed to play then I don't see this series lasting.

I hope as this year progresses a lot of these kind of issues can be worked out even if its only for the 2013 season. I think the concept is exactly what the precision rifle world of competition needs. Best regards to all involved.

 

[Glen Seekins]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

+1 on what frank just laid out.


I keep saying this only because it seems to be working.... Look at the 3 gun shoots and learn from the USPSA. They kind of go the way Frank just talked about. It makes allot of sense and it seems to work very well. There are 100x's more 3 gun shooters and a ton more events than our precision shoots. they also run a ton more competitors. Still, there is a looong waiting list for some shoots!

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

I'd be up for putting local matches in, but that'd be purely selfish motivation...

I have been placing in the top third to top quarter at major matches lately, so as it stands it's gonna be tough to get a seat at the finale as it is (and it should be!!). Top fifteen percent shouldn't be easy to attain! I'll be damned fortunate if I can make my three qualifiers-oh well...

Throw in local matches and I'm a bigger fish in a small pond- there's probably 25-30 local matches I could attend between the two monthly matches in AZ and road trips to Vegas, and at these I place top five pretty regularly...

Can you see how this would skew things in the favor of southwest shooters like AZLRPRS, NORCAL, SoCal, and Vegas?!?!

Its my understanding that PRS was never intended to be anything other than a tough series to see who the best shooters in the country are. I shoot a relative lot of matches and I'm pretty good, but I know and accept I'd be a Cinderella story if I make and place well in the finale!!

Screw the "every kid is a winner" mentality. It's gonna be tough to make the matches, and tougher to get in the finale. I kinda figured that when I first heard of it. As George Carlin so fondly pointed out often-there's only a few winners and a whole bunch of losers-it a championship series, not March Madness people!!

Let it run it's course, I'm sure it will be a self-righting one, and it will succeed or fail, and we'll all learn something!

 

[bmarc69]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lucks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bmarc69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just don't see the oppertunities for a new competitive shooter to compete against the elite.
</div></div>
Simply put....

New shooter....
1. Joins the PRS (Basically, pays $75 membership fee)
2. Signs up for a (PRS) match
3. Goes to the match and gets to compete against your so called "elite"

Behind the scenes...
Match Directors send results to PRS
PRS awards points and posts ranking/standing on website
At the end of the year the PRS invites top points earners to compete in a match with a huge cash prize generated from the PRS membership fee money... </div></div>New shooter.....
1. Easy enough and not overly expensive. Provided the new shooter can make 3 matches.
2. Provided they can afford expenses or find one close enough to attend.
3. Provided they are able to get in the match. Early registration for PRS members is still no guarantee with everybody scrambling to get three scores. Early registration will however exclude new shooters wanting to see how they can do against the best.

Behind the scenes......
1. easy enough as long as the scoring system doesn't change the match.
2. Nice to have everything in one place but also a tool to showcase the elite. This is not just the PRS. The same thing happens on the 3GN website.
3. Huge cash prize generated partly by shooters who had no chance of qualifying or being invited to the championship. There is no membership for 3GN. Shooters can still shoot the matches without feeling they are donating to the elite.

I honestly wish it was as simple as you laid it out. Unfortunately it is not. There are issues that will hurt our sport just as much as they will promote it. I don't have the answers but I hope in the end the PRS can address some of these issues. Enjoy your series. I will be shooting my local matches and praying that not all the major matches become PRS matches so I may have a couple left to possibly shoot. Hopefully some of the MDs won't be tempted to change their team matches to individual. That way my partner and I will still be able to shoot together and have a good time.

I have also competed in a 3GN match. Even though it is an individual competition, most shooters there were part of a group. Whether it was their team or a new shooter traveling with friends they were able to compete against the elite on a level playing field. Share expenses. 3 gun is very different from precision rifle in the way points are earned. Speed plus penalties in most cases. 250 competitors or even more per match. Hopefully the PRS can find a way around these differences but what works for one sport may need to be modified to work for another.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Precision Rifle Series

Shooting multiple local matches does not skew the points, you're not awarding equal points to start as well what I suggested is, ranking the matches. Several points can used to rank, and honestly, just because a match is big like the past SHC competitions doesn't necessarily make it harder. The competition maybe tougher, but take a field match like the Raton Sporting Rifle or say the CD Steel Safari and the hard factor is not the same. Field matches that are UKD with only a single shot to score is a harder hit than one on a defacto KD course or a match with a mix of paper and targets inside 400 yards allowing multiple hits.

As an anecdotal piece, the first time I shot the Sporting Rifle Match I shot a 56 only missing 4 shots, I didn't win. The first time I shot the CRC Prairie Dog match I did equally as well, I didnt win that match either. It's not as cut and dry as saying a local match can't produce a winning shooter In popular national match. Sure there are benefits to shooting local matches every month, but don't under-estimate the fact that guys who have shot the Cup every year at R O and the Bash at R O doesn't have an advantage. I don't think they would fair as well the very first time shooting a Field Match out west. It's A different set of skills being tested. Would they do awful, no, but don't count them at the top automatically simply because they shoot a popular match.

Bmarc has a lot of great points and his sentiment is a common one. Most people who are not part of the central core of the Texas or NorCal shooters feel the same way. The common denominator to these guys who feel positive about the way it is currently playing out are inside the nucleus - they have a support group, a team if you will. The shooters spinning around the edges feel left out. Even if they paid to get in. On paper it looks and reads simple like Luck wrote, but as Nomad pointed out the numbers don't add up. There is simply not enough space especially if guys shooting plan on shooting more than 1 match. The more matches an individual shoots, the less space available as it stands.

He (Bmarc) is also correct, 3GN runs a lot more people through a competition. Most of the popular PR matches are capped a 60 shooters to be effective. 3G runs hundreds of shooters because their stages are measured in seconds, not minutes like a good precision rifle stage. People hate when you say, 30 seconds prep time, and then try telling them 30 seconds to find, range and engage a target. Most figure that needs a minimum of 90 seconds. Big difference that a lot of facilities can't overcome, unless you want nothing but shorter range barrel burner stages. Your events would go from 120 to 160 rounds down to 50 rounds to move that many through most places. It would be everyone on line shooting paper to accommodate the numbers.

I really think people should put some weight in what has been said by the little guy floating on the edges. This isnt about everybody winning, this is about the stated mission to promote the sport to new people, that means people who aren't part of a clique, whether it be AZ, NorCal or Texas. dismissing their concern, and making them disenfranchised isn't promoting anything but your own perceived worth. It's more "I got mine" then what can we do to help. Think it is bad now, wait til the few show up at one of the 12 and realize without a team to support them they have no chance, the disenfranchising that happens at that point will set land speed records. It wont be an individual match it will be a team sport, in a place where a team can actually make a difference. There is a reason an F Class Team has a coach. Nothing prevents one half of a team walking off the UKD line and texting the dope to the other half. It's not like a handgun where the bullet goes where the barrel is pointed, getting someone to dope the wind for you by shooting it has it's advantages. That is valuable information to have a head of time. Big teams coming out this early is another nail if you ask me, I get it, completely understand the thought and the process but I don't see it promoting the sport to the individual. In my opinion local matches do so more then they are being given credit for.