Rifle Scopes Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

[Guns4570]

Hey I just picke up a Special Weapons periodical and it has a review of the DTA and silencers and a one of of a Tubb 2000 in 338LM. But the cool thing was a Premier Heritage with a DTAC reticle in it. Any one see this article...or know they were looking at putting the DTAC in to the PR scopes?

 

[jasonk]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

Hadn't heard that at all. You sure they had a Dtac or did they mistake the XR for it?

I guess anything is possible though.

 

[Guns4570]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

Jasonk...that is a possibility. Article says, " Resting atop the rifle is a Premier Reticle scope with the Tubb's DTAC reticle. Tubb invested a lot of time and effor coing up with a reticle that won't need dialing the turrets but still has the appropriate markings for range and windage."

 

[Guns4570]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

Tom Beckstrand wrote the review.

 

[jasonk]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

Interesting if it's true, but can't believe that no one announced it. Hmmmm.....

Looks REALLY busy anyway, not sure I'd need one.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

There's not much you can do with the DTAC reticle that you can't do with any graduated reticle. And the DTAC reticle is load-specific, while you can use a standard reticle with any load.

The DTAC reticle saves you from a bit of math, if your load is exactly what the DTAC reticle was generated for.

But if you're not using that load, any one of a number of ballistic programs will do that math for you.

 

[Guns4570]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

Lindy..I don't happen to prefer the DTAC...just reported I saw the mention of it and hadn't seen any word of it before. Probably either a typo and is the XR reticle or its a one off like the Tubb 2000 in 338LM.

 

[robozebra]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

I spoke with David Tubb on 4th of July. He said that they were working on the reticle with Premier if I remember correctly. He had a S&B with the reticle on his gun. My wife has a Valkyrie in 6XC, so we took it to him to autograph it for her. He saw the Premier and mentioned that in the future we may be able to get a Premier with the DTAC reticle. He spent about 30 minutes with us explaining how to use the reticle and the principles behind it. Really a great guy...

But, the reticle is specific to the bullet and velocity. I'm not sure the Valkyrie will have the same velocity as a Tubb 2000 given the difference in barrel length.

CWJ

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

Wishin' I had a DTAC for 175 308's in mine!

While I usually defer to Lindy on this stuff, I would have to say that yes, the reticle is load specific but no you can't do everything the DTAC reticle offers with any graduated reticle (at least not without plenty of data in your book re: angles, mildot master, wind cosines, adjustments for changes in weather/asl, etc). The reticle is definately busy, but very interesting once you know what you are looking at. My friend has a Dtac for the 6XC, and loves it. I've looked at the 175 308's cards/manual and I;d really like to have one.

 

[Glen Seekins]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

its not that hard to use after you understand it. When my dad looked thru my gen2 scope he thought it was too busy and didn't understand it. After he used it he doesn't know how he shot for so long without.

Its not for everyone, but i wouldnt mind having one.

I had David make me range cards made for a particular load. After you understand them you can use them for anything. They are the best i have used and I use them more than my palm.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you can't do everything the DTAC reticle offers with any graduated reticle (at least not without plenty of data in your book re: angles, mildot master, wind cosines, adjustments for changes in weather/asl, etc).</div></div>

Of course you can.

With a density altitude elevation table, you're just reproducing the elevation data in that reticle, for any load you care to use.

See:
Making Ballistic Cards Using Density Altitude

And now JBM does those calculations as well:
JBM Density Altitude Trajectory Cards

The cosine formula works for wind angles, and you only need a couple of cosines. Show me someone who says they can read wind angles to better than 30 degrees resolution over the flight of the bullet at any significant distance, and I'll show you a person of questionable integrity.

So, when faced with spending a lot of money for a load-specific reticle, or paying nothing to have identical capabilities with a generic reticle, I know which way I'm going.

I encourage others to decide otherwise, though. Spend a lot of money to help the economy. The stock market needs your help.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

hence the "without a lot of data in your book" caveat....

The only load-specific stuff I don't mind is stuff made for 175 or 168 308 match loads, as I copy FGMM with my handloads-pretty tough to find a 308 that won't shoot 168's or 175's at 2650-2700fps.

Last out of town match I shot I got caught with my pants down by a DA shift from morning to afternoon, that left me 3moa low on my 1K dope. Afterwards I tried to rectify my JBM produced data and was driving myself nuts. Once I talked to my friend that runs a DTAC and Kestrel, he told me about the DA shift we had, and I looked on the DTAC "tree" and sure enough, it indicated the exact correction I needed.
Of course this could have been figured out if I knew all the variables and caught it, so the reticle won't cure everything.

I just think it'd be good in the proper application (like when I forget my data cards).

Actually I'm just venting, having just got a GenIIXR, and then I hear this was coming online. Maybe my gov't check will show up by the time PR actually gets around to offering a switch!

 

[Lindy]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

Well, it's a nice reticle from the standpoint of having someone else do your thinking for you.

OTOH, your going to have to think to use it, too, especially if your load is a bit different than what the reticle was specified for.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Successful application of the precision rifle is a lot more about thinking than it is about shooting. -- Jacob Bynum, Rifles Only.</div></div>

Personally, I prefer to do my own thinking. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Turk]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

Lindy, are you related to this gentleman? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun

 

[Lindy]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

No, but we met, at a party in Hunstville, Alabama, back in the 60's, where someone played Tom Lehrer's song with the lines,

"Once the rockets are up,
Who cares where they come down?
That's not my department,
Said Wernher von Braun."

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro

He laughed.

He's also the author of one of my favorite quotes: "Research is what I say I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing."

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

The DTAC reticle is a clever invention of Brand Cole while he was at SSS. Yes, you can do the same thing with a mil dot reticle, JBM calculations, and more time - after all, in the end, you're only setting elevation and windage. The DTAC reticle makes accurate shooting very easy, takes less time, includes environmental variables, and reduces errors because the process requires fewer mental and physical steps. In other words, it's the kind of reticle the military could use. I own two S&B scopes with DTAC 6XC reticles and they would be the last ones I would sell. My overall score increased a bunch the first time I used it. I hope David Tubb is able to proliferate the use of this reticle in Premier and other scopes.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Successful application of the precision rifle is a lot more about thinking than it is about shooting. -- Jacob Bynum, Rifles Only.</div></div>

Personally, I prefer to do my own thinking. Your mileage may vary.
</div></div>

Ouch!! I appreciate you points and they are very valid. A DTAC reticle will probably be something I'd like to have, but probably will never be able to justify the cost of.

Sometimes I don't think too well, a backup no-brainer setup (that OEJ explained better than I) could sometime come in handy when the effects of my pre-"sobr" days flare up.

All in all, with the DTAC reticle you can still use the central aiming point and turrets, and have all the clutter just there for a backup.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its better to have and not need, than need and not have
-someone wiser than myself</div></div>

 

[Turk]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, but we met, at a party in Hunstville, Alabama, back in the 60's, where someone played Tom Lehrer's song with the lines,

"Once the rockets are up,
Who cares where they come down?
That's not my department,
Said Wernher von Braun."

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro

He laughed.

He's also the author of one of my favorite quotes: "Research is what I say I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing."
</div></div>

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It is designed to work with the specific trajectory and wind characteristics of a specific chambering, with the ability to compensate for DA within the markings. The wind holds are marked in MPH, the elevation holds in yards. </div></div>
Not just a specific chambering, but any rifle that launches the specific bullet at the specified muzzle velocity. I use my DTAC scopes on four different rifles that shoot the 115DTAC at ~2,950fps. These are in 243Win and 6XC chamberings, but it could be others as well.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...launching a specific BC bullet...</div></div>

I'm sure that you know this and just didn't state it, but it must be the same <span style="font-style: italic">weight</span> bullet as well - the same BC is not sufficient.

 

[Mag 300]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guns4570</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey I just picke up a Special Weapons periodical and it has a review of the DTA and silencers and a one of of a Tubb 2000 in 338LM. But the cool thing was a Premier Heritage with a DTAC reticle in it. Any one see this article...or know they were looking at putting the DTAC in to the PR scopes? </div></div>


Holy Shit my dreams have come true a Tubb 2000 in 338 lapua
Guns sent you an email ??????????

 

[Mag 300]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

the DTAC is one Busy son of a bitch
here is the link
http://www.davidtubb.com/tcom_images/dtac/reticle_rev6.pdf

 

[Lindy]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the DTAC an improvement over the Horus reticle?</div></div>

I'd guess that depends on who you ask. Lots of people think the Horus reticle is "too busy", too. I'm not one of them, though.

The problem with the DTAC reticle for me is that it's load-specific. That's fine as long as you're shooting the load it's designed for. But it's not so fine if you're not. And I wonder what you do when the density altitude is negative, as it will be in cold weather.

I've posted links above about how to make your own Density Altitude tables, which your can use with any graduated reticle.

And if you think that the DTAC reticle removes the necessity to think about what you're doing, read the manual, the link for which is posted above, and then consider about how to do that, especially if you're not shooting the load the reticle was calibrated for.

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

I'm friends with Brand and have discussed his reticle at great length. I like what it offers and plan on trying one in the near future.

 

[jasonk]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kick-Ass</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm friends with Brand and have discussed his reticle at great length. I like what it offers and plan on trying one in the near future.</div></div>

Sigy told me you were a name dropper.

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

holy shit...lol

Just trying to illustrate I have gotten plenty of detail from the inventor himself.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

There is an elevation correction for negative density altitude ("below sea level"), just like there is for any positive altitude other than 4kft (the nominal value). If you're shooting in Hell, there might be other problems than finding its negative density altitude.

There are rule of thumb corrections for different muzzle velocites; Brand told me that 25fps is roughly equivalent to a change in density altitude of 1,000ft.

The original DTAC reticle works for any bullet with a BC near 0.585 and an MV of ~2,950fps - I think there is a popular 6.5mm Sierra bullet with this BC, for example, and possibly a 338-cal Sierra bullet too that is often launched at about 2,950fps. The small correction for spin drift is probably not valid for another bullet than the 115DTAC, however. Nevertheless, <span style="font-style: italic">the reticle was designed for a specific bullet and muzzle velocity - I don't know why this is a point of repeated discussion, it's a given</span>. The world is filled with gizmos that are designed to do a specific job faster and better than ones with more general application.

I didn't say the DTAC reticle removes the need to think about what you're doing, that would just be silly. I said it reduces the number of mental and physical steps and, as a result, reduces errors. It's a fundamental design goal, not a fault.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

Well, perhaps I misunderstand you. But when you say it "reduces the number of mental and physical steps", that sure sounds like you think it reduces the need to think about what you're doing.

And I disagree with that anyway. There is nothing more complicated about looking at a DA table which isn't in the reticle than there is in looking at a DA table which is incorporated in the reticle.

And the DA table that anyone can build for their specific load is going to be more accurate than the one in the reticle, if they are not shooting that particular load.

But I have no problem with anyone who likes and wants to use the reticle. I just want to make ensure that people understand that anyone can use those concepts without having that reticle.

 

[hrt4me]

Re: Premier Heritage wit DTAC Reticle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, perhaps I misunderstand you. But when you say it "reduces the number of mental and physical steps", that sure sounds like you think it reduces the need to think about what you're doing.

And I disagree with that anyway. There is nothing more complicated about looking at a DA table which isn't in the reticle than there is in looking at a DA table which is incorporated in the reticle.

And the DA table that anyone can build for their specific load is going to be more accurate than the one in the reticle, if they are not shooting that particular load.

But I have no problem with anyone who likes and wants to use the reticle. I just want to make ensure that people understand that anyone can use those concepts without having that reticle.</div></div>

good points, thanks!