Primer issues and questions

BuildingConceptsllc

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    So, I just got back from @CR2 SS low light class (which was awesome, definitely would recommend, and I will definitely post about it in another thread), and I had a total of 6 primers out of right at 200 rounds that didn't go bang.

    Main Question 1- I've never had a primer not go bang on hand loads, and only a handful of times with factory center fire loads over many many years. How is it that I had so many this time and how likely is it that this issue has infected my whole 1000 pack? Can I do anything about this going forward? Will manufacturer do anything?

    Main Question 2- how risky is it for me to use an inertia puller to take the rounds apart and get my brass and maybe bullet back?

    I have a really good firing pin mark on all of them, it's definitely not a light strike. These are not cheap primers or anything either (as if that even exists now days)
    This is a bolt action if that matters in this situation. I can post pics of said rounds if need be also.

    Thanks.
     

    nn8734

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    Wonder if you failed to charge those cases.

    Weigh them and compare to weight of loaded rounds
     
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    BuildingConceptsllc

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    Wonder if you failed to charge those cases.

    Weigh them and compare to weight of loaded rounds
    Well, I'd like to say that's a definite no, but I have done that once before, but only on 1 round. I can shake em and check, but I very much doubt it because 1, the bullet didn't move at all, and I know from experience that if that does happen in my gun with my load, the bullet will lodge itself about halfway into the lands.

    It would also be extremely unlikely for me to have not charged that many cases, and them not be in a row together. These were randomly placed and among 3 different loading sessions of rounds.
     

    nn8734

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    Well, I'd like to say that's a definite no, but I have done that once before, but only on 1 round. I can shake em and check, but I very much doubt it because 1, the bullet didn't move at all, and I know from experience that if that does happen in my gun with my load, the bullet will lodge itself about halfway into the lands.

    It would also be extremely unlikely for me to have not charged that many cases, and them not be in a row together. These were randomly placed and among 3 different loading sessions of rounds.
    Then shake them and check and know for sure vs just pontificating about it. It’s just a suggestion, nothing more.

    As far as what to do about it (assuming you VERIFY that you in fact did charge those cases), call the manufacturer and ask about a remedy.
     

    db2000

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    You can definitely pull them. There’s never zero risk I suppose but if they haven’t ignited by now they’re not going to spontaneously. You didn’t ignite the primer with no charge or you’d heard it and had a squib as you noted.
     

    Haney

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    Is this new brass ? How did the primers feel when you seated them ?

    The no powder theory would have nothing to do with this , if conditions are correct that primer will work with or with out powder .
     
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    BuildingConceptsllc

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    Then shake them and check and know for sure vs just pontificating about it. It’s just a suggestion, nothing more.

    As far as what to do about it (assuming you VERIFY that you in fact did charge those cases), call the manufacturer and ask about a remedy.
    Verified. They definitely are all charged rounds
     

    BuildingConceptsllc

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    Is this new brass ? How did the primers feel when you seated them ?

    The no powder theory would have nothing to do with this , if conditions are correct that primer will work with or with out powder .
    This is 5x fired brass. Primers seated well and normal tension. I did note that one out of the 200 was a little easier to seat but not to point where it was like a loose pocket
     

    BuildingConceptsllc

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    Here's some pics of the troublesome 6 as well as some other rounds that shot normally for comparison. You can see the difference in how the primer looks on those compared to the other normal rounds
     

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    Haney

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    That's interesting , the bad ones look like a primer from undercharged loads . I am puzzled on this one . My first thought was excessive headspace with new brass but 5x fired rules that out.
     

    whatsupdoc

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    The misfires you have there, its a BAD idea to put them into a kinetic puller.
    I would only use a collet puller for primers that are struck.

    Sometimes kinetic pullers dislodge the primer compound and it gets mixed with
    the powder charge so I try to avoid using them if im looking to recover the primers and powder.

    Not that the primers you have are recoverable just in general.
     

    BuildingConceptsllc

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    The misfires you have there, its a BAD idea to put them into a kinetic puller.
    I would only use a collet puller for primers that are struck.

    Sometimes kinetic pullers dislodge the primer compound and it gets mixed with
    the powder charge so I try to avoid using them if im looking to recover the primers and powder.

    Not that the primers you have are recoverable just in general.
    Yeah , I wasn't even going to recover the powder on these, as I normally would if pulling them apart. I just want my brass and bullet back but I sure don't want any explosions and stuck primers have always unnerved me.
     

    db2000

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    So no way it’s moisture as mentioned earlier? Prior brass cleaning, over lube, etc
     

    BuildingConceptsllc

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    So no way it’s moisture as mentioned earlier? Prior brass cleaning, over lube, etc
    I don't know that I can say "no way", but there shouldn't have been any moisture. I keep the primers in my safe on a shelf, and I have a golden rod in the safe too. They did sit in the primer tray for a period of days, but there's no reason I can think of where they would have seen any moisture. If they had somehow gotten moisture when they were in my bench drawer, inside the tray, I would think it would have been more than just 6, but that's at least some kind of theory about possible reason I guess. My kids and wife know not to touch my reloading bench and I'm sure they weren't moved or anything so, I think moisture is very unlikely, at least while they were in my possession, which has been a little while.
     

    Cascade Hemi

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    What was the load (including primer type) and what were the ambient conditions? Did you notice slow ignition from any of the rounds that went off?
     

    db2000

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    I don't know that I can say "no way", but there shouldn't have been any moisture. I keep the primers in my safe on a shelf, and I have a golden rod in the safe too. They did sit in the primer tray for a period of days, but there's no reason I can think of where they would have seen any moisture. If they had somehow gotten moisture when they were in my bench drawer, inside the tray, I would think it would have been more than just 6, but that's at least some kind of theory about possible reason I guess. My kids and wife know not to touch my reloading bench and I'm sure they weren't moved or anything so, I think moisture is very unlikely, at least while they were in my possession, which has been a little while.
    Only from the brass. Lube, sonic cleaning and not drying completely. Just throwing out the idea.
     
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    BuildingConceptsllc

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    What was the load (including primer type) and what were the ambient conditions? Did you notice slow ignition from any of the rounds that went off?
    43.5 grm staball
    LRP
    Starline brass lrp
    Berger 130gr otm hybrid

    Conditions: night time, 68-ish degrees , no rain.

    Every other round fired seemed normal is every way.
     

    alamo5000

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    I don't know that I can say "no way", but there shouldn't have been any moisture. I keep the primers in my safe on a shelf, and I have a golden rod in the safe too. They did sit in the primer tray for a period of days, but there's no reason I can think of where they would have seen any moisture. If they had somehow gotten moisture when they were in my bench drawer, inside the tray, I would think it would have been more than just 6, but that's at least some kind of theory about possible reason I guess. My kids and wife know not to touch my reloading bench and I'm sure they weren't moved or anything so, I think moisture is very unlikely, at least while they were in my possession, which has been a little while.

    How do you tumble your brass?

    I say this because I had a similar problem not long ago. Literally the first time ever I had a FTF, as well as having solid primer strikes.

    In my case I wet tumbled my brass and I figured they were all good to go. That said the inside of the cases were still wet and didn't completely dry before I charged/loaded the rounds up with powder etc. That was definitely the source of my problem...
     

    db2000

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    How do you tumble your brass?

    I say this because I had a similar problem not long ago. Literally the first time ever I had a FTF, as well as having solid primer strikes.

    In my case I wet tumbled my brass and I figured they were all good to go. That said the inside of the cases were still wet and didn't completely dry before I charged/loaded the rounds up with powder etc. That was definitely the source of my problem...
    ^^^ this. Almost the only way 6 primers are not gonna fire
     
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    BuildingConceptsllc

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    How do you tumble your brass?

    I say this because I had a similar problem not long ago. Literally the first time ever I had a FTF, as well as having solid primer strikes.

    In my case I wet tumbled my brass and I figured they were all good to go. That said the inside of the cases were still wet and didn't completely dry before I charged/loaded the rounds up with powder etc. That was definitely the source of my problem...
    These were wet tumbled, but they weren't loaded right after or anything. I think it was about 2 weeks after when they were loaded. I did prime them all first and they sat in loading trays for a week or so after that so, I guess that's possible. Maybe a few still had a little moisture and I primed them, then they sat in the loading tray (so any moisture would likely fall down to the primer and sit right on the compound), and some got wet. That's a pretty good theory.

    I sure hope that's what it was. If so, it won't be an issue again.
     

    Haney

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    Primers can stand a lot of moisture . I doubt that is your problem .
     

    ICU22250

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    How old were the primers? And had they been stored the entire time in the safe or in other places as well?
     

    BCX

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    I just had a similar issue w new CCI primers. 8 out of 100 bad from CCI. I pulled the bullets, decapped bad primers, primed w Fed 215, dumped same powder in, seated bullets and bang. No issues.
     
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    alamo5000

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    These were wet tumbled, but they weren't loaded right after or anything. I think it was about 2 weeks after when they were loaded. I did prime them all first and they sat in loading trays for a week or so after that so, I guess that's possible. Maybe a few still had a little moisture and I primed them, then they sat in the loading tray (so any moisture would likely fall down to the primer and sit right on the compound), and some got wet. That's a pretty good theory.

    I sure hope that's what it was. If so, it won't be an issue again.
    Primer compound will go inert when wet, but as it dries it will activate again. In fact that's how they manufacture primers and not blow themselves up. As long as it's wet you can play with a ball of it like the size of a golf ball. The manufacturers literally have wet rooms as part of the manufacturing process.

    More than likely the POWDER got wet enough to not allow ignition. At least that's how mine were. When I pulled the bullets the powder was a PITA to get out of the case because of moisture. After the bullet was seated it didn't allow any moisture to escape.

    I definitely recommend pulling the bullets on those six to make sure. I don't know about yours but wet powder IMO is likely the most plausible culprit. If you don't want to pull them using a hammer, just sacrifice at least one bullet by using a pair of vice grips on the bullet.
     

    Cascade Hemi

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    43.5 grm staball
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    Starline brass lrp
    Berger 130gr otm hybrid

    Conditions: night time, 68-ish degrees , no rain.

    Every other round fired seemed normal is every way.

    Five defective primers out of 100 is almost unheard off. Since you're using LRP we can rule out SRP cold ignition. That pretty much only leaves water in your brass as the result.
     

    BuildingConceptsllc

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    Five defective primers out of 100 is almost unheard off. Since you're using LRP we can rule out SRP cold ignition. That pretty much only leaves water in your brass as the result.
    Yeah it really is unheard of. Got to be something I did and water definitely makes the most sense.
     

    Haney

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    Yeah it really is unheard of. Got to be something I did and water definitely makes the most sense.
    Did you check headspace on faulty rounds ? Do you seat your primers to a slight crush ?
     
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    BuildingConceptsllc

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    Did you check headspace on faulty rounds ? Do you seat your primers to a slight crush ?
    Yes they are correct on headspace and length ect.. I seat to a little bit of crush and have it set that way with the stop so they all seat the same, to whatever precision it will hold anyway.
     

    Haney

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    Not yet, I'm kind of scared to honestly. I only have an inertia puller and I'm not real keen on hammering down with a struck primer looking me in the face ya know?
    You can run them up with no die in the press and lock onto the bullet with pliers to pull one and see whats going on .
     

    BuildingConceptsllc

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    You can run them up with no die in the press and lock onto the bullet with pliers to pull one and see whats going on .
    I have a turret press and it's kind of hard to do that with it. The pliers hand out too far over the top of the turret. I can pull one apart with pliers by hand though,
     

    Haney

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    OK, I understand . Just thought I would mention it ,very curious to see what you find .
     

    BuildingConceptsllc

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    OK, I understand . Just thought I would mention it ,very curious to see what you find .
    Yeah I guess I'm going to have to do it on at least one just to see. Guess I could wear some gloves and safety glasses and pull the bullet with pliers. Probably safer than with the inertia puller?
     

    nn8734

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    Yeah I guess I'm going to have to do it on at least one just to see. Guess I could wear some gloves and safety glasses and pull the bullet with pliers. Probably safer than with the inertia puller?
    Ive pulled bullets with pliers, no issues. That said, Buy a Hornady cam lock puller. Its cheap and works very well. Stick it in a small single stage press and you can pull bullets at any time. Just grab the collets you need for the calibers you shoot and your gtg.
     

    BuildingConceptsllc

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    Ive pulled bullets with pliers, no issues. That said, Buy a Hornady cam lock puller. Its cheap and works very well. Stick it in a small single stage press and you can pull bullets at any time. Just grab the collets you need for the calibers you shoot and your gtg.
    Yeah I should do that
     

    CK1.0

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    I would remeasure your fired brass, and then the duds again using a comparator…

    IDK, but sounds like you probably bumped the shoulders back too much on the dud rounds… sometimes a couple thou too much is all it takes before one gets light strikes. I’ve seen some that looked plenty dimpled but still didn’t go bang because it wasn’t enough to crush the primer’s anvil because of excessive bump…
     
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    BuildingConceptsllc

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    It's moisture. Im kind if shocked actually. So I went home to check this out since I was close by anyway and I pulled the bullet. The powder is all clumped up and it looks like some of it may have actually burned. Not sure how it didn't move the bullet though. It's not very much that burned and I guess since it was wet it didn't ignite as much as smolder or something. I can't belive that moisture was in there! I'm wondering if my kids opened up my drawer when I had all the cases in the loading tray and spilled some water in it or something???

    Anyway, mystery solved and it looks like the primers did do something. Once I missed a case when charging and I shot that one and the bullet moved enough to lodge it in the lands about half or a third of the way so, I don't think the primer fully ignited. Anyway, thanks for the input fellas.

    Oh also, I don't know why I didn't do it this way before but I did use my press to pull it. I extended the bullet through one of the empty holes that didn't have a die in it and used pliers. I guess before when I messed with it I didn't want to remove any dies to do it but I have an empty space right now so, no problem with that.
     

    Haney

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    Good to see you solved it . I commented early in the thread about the primers looked puffy like they had been shot in a reduced load . At least you know they went off and you don't have other issues.
     

    BuildingConceptsllc

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    Good to see you solved it . I commented early in the thread about the primers looked puffy like they had been shot in a reduced load . At least you know they went off and you don't have other issues.
    Yeah definitely... The weird look of the primers was something i hadnt seen before. I hate that I did that, but I'm very glad to know that the primers are good. I've never had a primer not fire in any hand load and only a few times ever in factory loads...so to say the least I was very puzzled by the whole thing.

    I really have no idea how moisture got in there but such is life right? Glad it's solved and it sure won't happen again!
     
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    Haney

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    Yeah definitely... The weird look of the primers was something i hadnt seen before. I hate that I did that, but I'm very glad to know that the primers are good. I've never had a primer not fire in any hand load and only a few times ever in factory loads...so to say the least I was very puzzled by the whole thing.

    I really have no idea how moisture got in there but such is life right? Glad it's solved and it sure won't happen again!
    I do a bunch of reduced loads using H4895 and that is how my primers look . Fromthe pic I figured they had gone off but was puzzled how they could not ignite the powder or at least have the power to move the bullet . I have never had a moisture problem before . This is an eye opener . Congrats on solving the puzzle.
     

    Dave__th3__ss

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    I know after tumbling they go In a dehydrator for a hour or so. Then cool while In the dehydrator back to room temperature… maybe from going outside being warmer to inside in a cool house caused condensation to build up.