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Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

If he's not getting a sticky/stiff bolt lift, but still getting (what some consider) flattened primers and ejector marks....then the case is not expanding too much, there is no ejector SWIPE (indicating too much pressure), and the case is simply bouncing backwards into the boltface because it's a bot loose in there...due to being over-sized slightly.

He's told us that he has the resize die cranked all the way down to the shell holder. That's an indication that it's been sized too much probably.

Even with a palma chamber and sitting on the lands at 2.8"... 43.5gr of Varget under a 168 SMK ain't hot...
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

... 43.5gr iv Varget under a 168 SMK ain't hot...

Yeah, most of the time. So, I guess we all can just load 43.5gr. of Varget under a 168SMK and romp forth oblivious of the consequences? After all, we KNOW 43.5 grains of Varget....ain't hot.

Looks hot to me and I am not overly impressed with the exotic solutions being talked about. He's shooting a hot load and needs to regroup.
Peace, BB
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

It was posted earlier but, I don't think it can be said enough.... flattening primers can be caused by excessive headspace.

You really only want about a .002 bump on the shoulder in a bolt gun.

This may or may not be the issue but, it's worth exploring if you have not considered it. ( if you're firing this brass for the first time, it may explain your flattening primers ) or, if you're setting your shoulder back too far, that would also explain it.

As others have said as well, if you see any ejector marks on your brass, you're over-pressure.
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Even with a palma chamber and sitting on the lands at 2.8"... 43.5gr of Varget under a 168 SMK ain't hot...
</div></div>

Sometimes I quote myself...
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Primers are harder or softer depending on brand.
Rifles, especially the R700, sometimes have FP holes that are a little large.
Primers will flow into the FP hole.
EXPERTS will tell you right away that you should not count on primers as a true indication of pressure.
Sometimes the ejector will just mark brass. That is what I see in his pics instead of ejector swipe. I also don't see the ejector (mind you pics aren't great) indenting the case head like brass is flowing around it.
I owned a R700 in 220 Swift once that showed ejector swipe at the bottom of the load data with several different powders. Brass actually came off the case head in enough quantity to lock the ejector in a compressed position. I sent the gun back to Remington and they said nothing was wrong with it. I didn't trust that and had a highly competent gun smith look it over too. I was told that it was just "one of those things" and couldn't be explained. Shit happens!

I am starting to think part of the problem is the resizing method vs. the chamber of the particular rifle. Head space can be measured. Check the Sinclair catalog for tools to help with that.

Lastly, you are in Florida. Heat and humidity, as well as altitude, will have effects on pressure. If you do have something amiss that is causing your loads to hit higher pressure then the climate factors may exacerbate the problem.
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but it wouldn't hurt to try H4831. </div></div>

Did you just pull this number off the top of your head?
Hodgdon does not recommend H4831 for any load in 308 Winchester. At least not on their web site's data center.

Also, according to Hodgdon's tech staff, they don't ever post their max loads. The posted data is about 93% of SAAMI spec.
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Yes, I did. Out of my ass.

But, just for kicks....

I just retrieved an old Hodgdons manual, #25 published in 1989, before you were born? On page #233 it shows a starting load of H4831 is 46.0 grains+2155fps. (165 grain bullet) The max load is 50.0 grains=2469 and the pressure is listed at39,000. And, some might say that is very low, and why I felt safe in pulling it out of my ass. Of course, this was before lawyers were writing reloading manuals. And, you say they don't publish max loads? Not anymore, and who can blame them?

Just a little historical perspective, ya know?

That same manual, on page 239 there is a listing of 168-172 gr bullets National Match loads.

Max H380 47.0gr2634fps
MaxBLC2 46.0gr.2614fps
MaxH335 42.0gr.2548fps
MaxH4895/40.0gr2525fps
MaxH322 39.0gr.2506fps

I don't see where I am offering poor advice, Amigo? BB
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

PS the same load is listed in Manual #20 on page 86. BB edit: Win 120 primer if it matters?

edit: by the way, good call! I should have thought of it. It's about time we know what 4895 was doing.
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I disagree with Xfan, respectfully, of course. We should note that his cases were previously fired and maybe he was over pressure with the other powder, before he loaded his lightest charge? Remote but as has been noted, how do you have ejector marks and no flattened primers? I also disagree that flattened primers are a poor indicator: they mean something to me, and that's all I care about. If they are poor indicators for xfan, that's his business, (and I do not have a ballistics lab) but I have the 35P and consider what I do have as sufficient to develop a safe and accurate load.

So, none of the four conditions were in evidence, and we are back with evaluating this gun with this load and seeing obvious over pressure signs. I don't need lab equipment to see the problem; a blind man could see the problem....it's too hot!

And, a chronograph is an extremely useful tool, that way you could tell right away if 40 grains of Varget yields a comparable velocity as the published data and why they say to start 10% below published data. As far as charge weight.

I have a lot of doubt about excessive headspace, as well. He (says) he had no problems with 4895? I am not completely convinced of that, based on his pictures for reasons I already stated. Seems to me that he would have experienced case head separation by now, or incipient at least, if he knows what to look for and this can be done with a sharpened and bent paper clip along the inside near the web. I expect he won't find it?

Amigo, pick up another (different) recommended powder and start low and go slow. BB

........

edit: good discussion though, entertaining and keeps us out of the bars! </div></div>

I don't mean we should totally ignore primers I am just suggesting that they not be considered as absolutes. I have seen primers show "low-moderate" pressure that were over 70kpsi.

I did miss that these cases were second loading..Who knows what was in them before....Good call. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #000000"> I suspect you are right and that the last load was too hot. The OP needs to start again as the used cases are of no use to furhter load development and may have been stressed in more ways than one. </span></span>

By the OP's description I suspect he is most likely over-sizing his cases and perhaps needs a little guidance there. Lapua will put up with this abuse for numerous firings without splitting. I run it in my M-14 because it really stands up to the abuse from a sloppy chamber and the smashing it gets from the action.

Varget and 4895 are a couple of the better 308 powders and there is nothing wrong with either.
This is pilot error...We just need to find the error.

I agree good discussion.

Peace
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

I am no high school comp geek, my friend.
My manuals date back to before 1977. I don't look at the old ones any longer except to reminisce. Though many things about reloading have not changed over the years powder and primers have. I try to keep up with current trends and recipes and let the old ones live in history.
I apologize if I struck a nerve. Your posts seem a little pompous though and it is not necessary in this thread.
Yes, we all missed the facts on his H4895 load. unless we know where he was before we can't make any assumptions that his "problem" just started with Varget.
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

No problem, shooter. I could have read attitude into your comments, if so, I apologize...and this ain't my first rodeo either. BB
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

When I was using Hodgdon H4895, I loaded up 41gr, and 41.5gr. I was careful not to get close to the MAX load of 43.5gr. The indicators that you guys are seeing on the brass and primers was not on there when I fired it with the H4895.
Im either going to start really low with the reamaining 3lbs of Varget and work up from there, or just dump it and go back to the H4895.
The Lapua brass was new when I fired it with the H4895. I did not resize it. I simply popped a primer in it, dropped powder, seated a bullet and fired away. The brass was only fired (1) Time before I switched over to the Varget. The brass was Full Sized as well after the first firing.
Im considering taking my rifle to a smith to and get him to give me some dimensions on my chamber so I know where I stand with it.

I really appreciate all the ideas, suggestions and thoughts everyone has given me.
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

How many pieces of brass do you own, Lapua and FC?

How do you seat primers?

Did you notice that some primers went in easier than others?

I assume you did not uniform the primer pockets, (by your description; simply popped a primer in it) but, in any event, did you manage to seat them at least flush without crushing the primers or using undue pressure? Describe the "feel"?

Did you check overall case length, or trim the necks to length before you started loading Varget? Are you aware of what happens when you chamber a round if the neck is too long for your chamber?

What was the "feel" on bolt closing, if you noticed? Did the bolt close different loaded with Varget, harder, maybe?

When you full length resize, does the press cam over on the shell holder, using your method of setting up the die? Or is the stroke uniform all the way to the top?

Google case head expansion and how to check it and then check all cases, paying close attention to those with an extractor mark on the headstamp and the difference with those not showing the mark. This is the circular mark close to the rim, but not present on all of your cases.

I'd be interested in knowing the answers to the above questions, at your leisure. BB,
or, better known lately, around these parts as, SLP/Seems a Little Pompous. lol I'm just trying to help, and frankly, it looks like you can use a little advice, & don't mean to be abrasive.
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many pieces of brass do you own, Lapua and FC? <span style="color: #FF0000">200 Lapua. 20 FC. FC was some factory ammo I got at gander Mountain. The FC was NOT reloaded by me.</span>
How do you seat primers? <span style="color: #CC0000">Lee Hand Primer</span>

Did you notice that some primers went in easier than others? <span style="color: #FF0000">They all felt the same. No problems seating any of them </span>
I assume you did not uniform the primer pockets, <span style="color: #FF0000">No i didnt </span>(by your description; simply popped a primer in it) but, in any event, did you manage to seat them at least flush without crushing the primers or using undue pressure? <span style="color: #FF0000">Yes I did </span> Describe the "feel"? <span style="color: #FF0000">It was a smooth feel. I think Ill have carpel tunnel soon lol, but there were no issues seating the primers.</span>
Did you check overall case length, or trim the necks to length before you started loading Varget? <span style="color: #FF0000">The brass NEW was measuring 2.008. I did NOT trim it prior to first use. After Full Sizing them, I did trim them back with a Lee case trimmer and case length gage.</span> Are you aware of what happens when you chamber a round if the neck is too long for your chamber?<span style="color: #FF0000"> No </span>

What was the "feel" on bolt closing, if you noticed? <span style="color: #FF0000">It felt the same as it did with the H4895. It was not hard, but not easy. </span>
Did the bolt close different loaded with Varget, harder, maybe? <span style="color: #FF0000">No it did not.</span>

When you full length resize, does the press cam over on the shell holder, using your method of setting up the die? Or is the stroke uniform all the way to the top? <span style="color: #FF0000">Im using the Forster CO-AX. I dont believe it "Cams over". Atleast I have not noiticed it doing that.</span>

Google case head expansion and how to check it and then check all cases, paying close attention to those with an extractor mark on the headstamp and the difference with those not showing the mark. This is the circular mark close to the rim, but not present on all of your cases.

I'd be interested in knowing the answers to the above questions, at your leisure. BB,
or, better known lately, around these parts as, SLP/Seems a Little Pompous. lol I'm just trying to help, and frankly, it looks like you can use a little advice, & don't mean to be abrasive.

</div></div>
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

When I was using Hodgdon H4895, I loaded up 41gr, and 41.5gr. I was careful not to get close to the MAX load of 43.5gr. The indicators that you guys are seeing on the brass and primers was not on there when I fired it with the H4895. <span style="color: #FF0000">The H4895 load here is hitting around, per Hodgdon, 38,000 CUP and the bottom Varget load comes in at around 41,000 CUP. So, it would seem to me, your H4895 was never giving you pressures you would be attaining with Varget. That could very well explain why you never saw the signs before. I suggest working up a little higher with H4895 with new brass and seeing if you begin to see the same signs.</span>
Im either going to start really low with the reamaining 3lbs of Varget and work up from there, or just dump it and go back to the H4895. <span style="color: #FF0000">This is purely you choice. H4895 is not a bad powder choice at all. But, doing this will not answer any questions/doubts you now have about your rifle.</span>
The Lapua brass was new when I fired it with the H4895. I did not resize it. I simply popped a primer in it, dropped powder, seated a bullet and fired away. The brass was only fired (1) Time before I switched over to the Varget. The brass was Full Sized as well after the first firing.<span style="color: #FF0000">Here again, refer to everything posters have shared about FL sizing and your chamber. Also, I am concerned with the photos showing mixed Lapua and FC cases. That is not a good idea and could lead to even more head scratching.</span>
Im considering taking my rifle to a smith to and get him to give me some dimensions on my chamber so I know where I stand with it. <span style="color: #FF0000">At this point you should find a friend that has been doing this for a long time and get his hands on, eyes on opinions about how to proceed. If you should decide to work up higher SLOWLY with H4895 I think you will get your answers. The pressure signs will show up or you will get a good load with H4895 and be happy.</span>
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Here is what a properly flattened primer looks like, for reference.

123085.jpg


Squared off all the way to the edge of the primer pocket.
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No problem, shooter. I could have read attitude into your comments, if so, I apologize...and this ain't my first rodeo either. BB </div></div>

Buzz, We are cool my friend!
I know you're only trying to help.
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Ok, I loaded up a fresh batch of 308 ammo using Varget. This is Virgin Lapua brass, Federal Match 210M Primers, and OAL 2.799-2.805. (im using a Forster CO-AX with a Redding Seating Comp DIE. Dont know why the spread of OAL is varying so much. The brass is running around 2.075-2.080.)

The way to read the pictures are as follows:

Start at the top, and go LEFT to RIGHT. TOTAL of (5) rounds per powder weight.
The first row was 39gr.
The second row was 39.5gr
The third row was 40gr
The fourth row was 40.5gr
They fifth row was 41gr
The ABOVE 5 rows were shot with SMK 168gr bullets.

The sixth row was 40gr
The seventh row was 40.5gr
The eigth row was 41gr
The ninth row was 41.5gr
The tenth row was 42gr
The ABOVE 5 rows were shot with SMK 175gr

2012-01-05_15-35-37_110.jpg



In this picture below are more 175gr SMK
Top row is 42.5gr
Bottom row is 43gr

2012-01-05_15-35-20_649.jpg




I noticed the "kick" on the rifle was starting to get a little bad around 42.5gr with 175gr MK bullet. You can also see the different shape in primers as the grains went up.

With both loads of 168 & 175, the lower end grains of powder was having a point of impact about 2-3" High and about 1/2" left at 100 yards. When I got to the 42gr and up on the 175gr bullet, my point of impact was about 1" high. Windage was "ok".. Both bullet weights at the lower end of grains was horrible at 200 yards. I couldnt hit anything.
I think Im going to stick with the 175gr MK bullets and play with the powder some from 41-42.5grs and see where it gets me.

Now this scope was sighted in with the H4895 at 100 yards, and was dead on. Didnt think a powder change would change my point of impact so much at 100 yards. If push comes to shove, Ill go back to the H4895.

 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Well, even though we are told that 43 grains ain't hot with a 168, it appears that your rifle is happier somewhere below 42.5? As far as accuracy, as I said several days ago, it's about time you tried a different powder. You really shouldn't have to beat this thing to death to get the opinion that 4895 is a better choice, at this point.

Keep what you have as a sort of control group, it will make good reference material, a little later. Select a different powder and read the in house information on ladder tests. I would test one thing, and in this case, I'd use one bullet. I think you are trying to do too many things at once. If you have any idea which bullet performs better, accuracy wise, use it and save the other for later comparisons, as you still need to figure out your proper seating depth. BB
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

PS, did you clean your barrel at any time between the different loads or was the 43. 0 grains fired with a fouled barrel. BB
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

It was cleaned after every 5 rounds.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PS, did you clean your barrel at any time between the different loads or was the 43. 0 grains fired with a fouled barrel. BB </div></div>
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

This all still seems very wierd to me. I would expect your lower charges to hit lower on the target. 2-3" high at 100 seems like a lot. Have you compared your rifle's performance running match factory ammo? that will tell you if your problem is limited to your handloads or not. Your primers look fine to me with the poss exception of the federal case. Why are you mixing federal and Lapua brass? That still bothers me.
Why was your point of aim 1" high? You didn't aim for the same bullseye each time? Or do you mean point of impact? I don't remember if you mentioned difficult bolt lift. It is what kind of rifle? Sorry you are having so much trouble...
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

No, I have not compared my ammo to a factory match ammo. That Federal brass obviously slipped past me. My point of impact was high, sorry for the confusion. For the first time, I did experience a "sticky bolt" 2 times. The rest of the rounds extracted with ease.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: targaflorio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This all still seems very wierd to me. I would expect your lower charges to hit lower on the target. 2-3" high at 100 seems like a lot. Have you compared your rifle's performance running match factory ammo? that will tell you if your problem is limited to your handloads or not. Your primers look fine to me with the poss exception of the federal case. Why are you mixing federal and Lapua brass? That still bothers me.
Why was your point of aim 1" high? You didn't aim for the same bullseye each time? Or do you mean point of impact? I don't remember if you mentioned difficult bolt lift. It is what kind of rifle? Sorry you are having so much trouble... </div></div>
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

after reading this post front to back and seeing that your in florida i pulled 15rd of 168gr ammo i loaded for testing

from 44.5 , 45, and 45.5 grs for varget reloaded to

42.5 , 43, and 43.5 grs of varget so ill be testing those in south tx

thanks for the info


ooooo ya ,, my primers look kinda flat now after setting them am i pushing to hard on them when i intall them ?
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Well, if your primer pockets have a small radius on the inner edge, depending on which primers you use, you could be applying too much pressure to seat them flush. It's much better to use a primer pocket uniformer tool, a one time step that will prevent that problem. The one I use is called a Whitetail and it's carbide. BB
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Thanks, I think I have one, hand held, come with a brush kit I got, didnt thimk to use it on new brass, but ill.check it out

Thanks
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

May have missed it but didn't see any info on the rifle. Custom or factory? If custom, you need to know chamber specs as you might have neck clearance issues.

Assuming it's a factory barrel I don't have anything new but will repeat. Get the tools to check you shoulder set back. Measure a fired case and then set up the sizing die to bump the shoulder .001 (some people do .002).

Make sure you are getting all the lube off your sized cases! This one bit me early on in my reloading and I too saw early pressure signs. I wipe each case with alcohol rag after sizing to make sure they're lube free.

Double check your brass length after sizing, just prior to adding powder. Sizing will increase length. Sort of like the first note on custom barrel. Case neck needs room to expand to release bullet.

Better safe than sorry with pressure issues but I don't think it's the load here. Best bet is to find experienced reloader that's local to you and ask them to help you check things out.
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

2447/that's the one time you DO use that tool; on new brass. BB
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2447/that's the one time you DO use that tool; on new brass. BB

</div></div>

got it ill do that from now on ,, sorry im new to this , first week or so , heading out tomorrow to test my first few loads

thanks
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

OK! I Finally had a smith look at my rifle. Within 10 seconds of looking in my chamber with a borescope, the issues were real clear! First of all, my head spacing was way off (this was checked with gauges), Second, I had literally no throat. He told me to make me understand, the case neck was almost touching the rifling in the barrel. This was a reason I could never get a accurate MAX OAL. Who the hell knows what reamer they were using. Lastly, the rifling at the crown was "flattened." The smith told me it appeared to him that the company who painted my rifle hammered a 308 round down the end of the crown to "seal" the barrel when they went to paint it. Thinking this guy was full of shit, I got a second opinion with out mentioning what I already knew. Sure enough, the second smith was dead on with what the first smith observed.
All these issues were helping me with my ejector marks, flattened primers, etc etc.. When everything comes back, Ill be sure to post some new targets.

So now I have to have the chamber recut, and the the end of the barrel re-crowned. Im going to loose about 1/4-1/2" in the rear, and about 1/8" at the crown. So much for having a 22" barrel LOL
 
Re: Primer issues? Hot Loads?

Well, it had to be something exotic, because your data was not making much sense.

Hammering a bullet down the bore to seal it and now I'm wondering how they extracted it? BB
 
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