Primer "missfire"

Alabama556

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  • May 15, 2008
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    I was shooting my Remington 700 300 whisper this weekend with some rounds I loaded up last week. I was using remington 7 1/2 br primers.

    Of the 25 rounds I shot, at least 6 or 7 did not go off the 1st time the firing pin hit the primer. Some went off the 2nd and others the 3rd. I had 2 that would never go off and I had to use a bullet puller to get them apart.

    I have a tubbs firing pin kit installed and it is denting the hell out of the primer.

    I bought these from Bass Pro about 6 months ago.

    It has to be bad primers doesn't it?

    Thanks
     

    GOING FOR 2000

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    I would say that it is the primers.

    How many grains and what powder?

    This may be a dumb question but are you touching the primers with your hands, or did the person you got them from touch them? (Drop a tray and pick them up??)
    The oil on your hands even if they are clean is enough to kill or weaken a primer especially Rem as they do not have a cover over the mix.
     

    Alabama556

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    I try to not touch them but sometimes I do. This is the only time I have ever used remington primers. I have never had this problem with federal or cci match primers.

    load is 8.7 gr aa1680 with 208 grain amax.
     

    Queequeg

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    The dud primers were dented on the first strike? Only thing other than a bad primer or firing pin might be a severely out of spec case being pushed into the chamber where some might go off and thrust back into the bolt and others not light at all.

    Are the cases sized correctly?
     

    Jasmck

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    How are you seating the primers? If the primers are not fully seated, sometimes it takes more than one firing pins strike. Just a possibility.

    James
     

    BLAWTON

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    The headspace could be a problem with it. One way to know is by putting the bullets into lands on the first firing. If thats not your problem and you getting a good strike with the firing pin on the first shot then try cci or federal primers. It could be a bind in you firing pin assembly or bolt. It could be your trigger hanging up on your cocking piece.

    I touch primers with my hands all the time. Doesnt cause any problems.
     

    Queequeg

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I touch primers with my hands all the time. Doesnt cause any problems. </div></div>

    Tell me about it. I've even got some 40 year old, CCI 250 primers, kept in a hell hole of a garage for all but the last 4-5 years (when they were given to me!
    grin.gif
    ) and every one has gone bang under various accurate loads.

    I mean, it could be bad primers, but there are other possibilities.
     

    Alabama556

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    I recently installed an extra power ejector spring as well as a tubbs firing pin with extra power spring.

    Could it be that the case is now further away from the firing pin hole because of the heavier ejector spring?
     

    Enios

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    I bought 5k last year from Midway and I've had 5 that didn't go off the week before last, 3k before it no problems. I also had 2 more last week that was loaded out of the same 100. I've never had an issue with them before and I take my bolt down and clean about every 1000 rounds and it hasn't been very dirty yet.
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    The most likely cause of a first strike ignition failure is incomplete primer seating. Prmers are either good or bad. If they are not going to work, it's not about first or second strikes.

    Primers in the package are in fact not 'armed' until they are seated. If you examine a live primer closely, you will see that the anvil feet protude beyond the rim slightly.

    As the primer is seated, the last bit of seating compresses these feet even with the rim, sensitizing the primer compound capsule. Until this relationship between feet and rim is established, the primer is not 'armed'.

    When the primer is not completely seated, most of the firing pin's energy is dissipated by forcing the primer cup deeper into the pocket, and by the time the primer finally gets fully seated and sensitized, not enough energy remains to initiate ignition. The second strike achieves what the first couldn't. If things are really bad it takes more than on firing pin strike to complete the seating process.

    Excessive headspace is a different problem, but the net effect is very similar; click but no bang.

    Also, and I know this is a D'oh, make sure the bolt handle is all the way down. I did this very thing three clicks in a row this past Wednesday. The headspace on that particular round was a bit snug, and the bolt was binding just enough on closure that I never noticed it wasn't going all the way down. I'm actually quite fortunate that the rifle would not achieve ignition with the bolt lugs only partially engaged, and I'm wondering if this may be a deliberate Savage design feature. If so; good show.

    Greg
     

    GOING FOR 2000

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    Just had a wild idea.

    Take 10 of your fired cases <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">do not resize </span></span>them just de-prime clean as usual and re-prime <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">no powder or bullet</span></span>. With 5, seat the primers the same way you always have, the other 5, add extra pressure to the seating. Fire the primers.

    By not resizing this should take the chamber and headspace out of the equasion. This should help isolate the problem.
     

    ChadTRG42

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    The last 3 reply's are right on.
    First and simplest- Check you sizing because if you are bumping the shoulder too far and getting excessive headspace, then this could cause your problem. When sizing, how far are you bumping the shoulder back?
    Second- Since you replaced the firing pin set-up, I'd look there (too light a strike, firing pin not protruding far enough?).
    Lastly I'd check the primers. I doubt it's a primer issue, though. Since the others went off after a few hits, they work.

    Chad
     

    Alabama556

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    Thanks. The reason I brought up the headspace issue is because I have yet to fire any of the cases that were fireformed in my rifle and resized by me.

    I have maybe 2,000 cases that I bought that were ready to go and I have been using those. I will load some of the cases that have been fireformed in my gun and see what happens.

    Also they are all LC 5.56 cases and some of the primers are hard to seat. I might need to check and make sure the crimp has been removed.

    Thanks for all the advice.

    Emris
     

    ChadTRG42

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: egraham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have maybe 2,000 cases that I bought that were ready to go and I have been using those. </div></div>
    Yes, this is most likely your issue. If they were sized too far down, then you have excesive headspace. And there's not much of a shoulder on a whisper case anyway. To fix it, you will have to load the bullet long where it's just touching the lands. This will not allow the case any forward movement and give you good primer ignition. Once you fire form them, don't size the shoulder back too far, or just neck size.
     

    BLAWTON

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    If there is to much head space the primers should be backing out when fired unless the bullets are in the lands. I would bet its the firing pin that you just replaced. I think that everyone should have help unless they know what they are doing. When changing firing pins several things need to be checked to make sure that everything is in working order. If your problem continues you should give me a call, i can help you find and get rid of your problem.

    Greg has a good point as well. If you didnt seat the primers they could have not been pushed in far enough and are moving when struck by the pin. I checked every single one i do to ensure that they are seated all the way. I also use a primer pocket reamer to ensure that the depths of the pockets are all the same as well.
     

    Alabama556

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    What do I need to do to check my firing pin? I bought a bolt toll and a firing pin tool and everything went easy.
     

    GOING FOR 2000

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    All you need is a good dial caliper.
    Get the firing pin protusion spec. from the mfg. Measure how far the firing pin protrudes from the bolt face with the pin in the fired position.
     

    BLAWTON

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    Yes your protrusion is one thing that needs checked. Two the firing pin fall is another. Measure how far it sticks out of the bolt shroud before and after firing. Spring pressures is another thing that could be your problem. The firing pin should be sticking out of the bolt face by about .062". Just use the bolt tool to set the pin in the fired position at the bottom of the cam.
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    Take a fired/decapped primer, remove the anvil, flatten the firing pin dent from the inside with flat punch and recap an empty case with this test primer. Strike it with the firing pin, then compare the indentation with a successfully fired casing. The indentation depths should be similar. Sight and touch should be close enough for this purpose.

    If a primer is not seated deeply enough, it should feel a little 'high' to the fingertip. If it does, place the case base down on a hard, flat surface. If it rocks, it's not seated flush.

    Greg
     

    Alabama556

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    Re: Primer "missfire" Update

    I got some 205 federal match primers and loaded 25 of the same unfireformed brass with my standard load. I did the same with 25 remington 7 1/2 primers.

    I noticed that the remington primers were larger and were harder to seat. The federal primers went right in.

    Bottom line is all of the 205's went off without a hitch. I had 5 7 1/2 primers that would not go off and several more that took more than one try. Needless to say the 7 1/2's are out the door
     

    Enios

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    Re: Primer "missfire" Update

    Have you used a primer pocket uniformer? I got a load of new Winchester brass and was going to fire form before working cases, but I found they were several cases I couldn't force the primer in and had to go a head and uniform the primer pockets. I was using Federal 210M's I also tried some of my Winchester LR primers for another 50 rounds with the same problem so I've just gone through all of them with the uniformer.
     

    btm_54

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The most likely cause of a first strike ignition failure is incomplete primer seating. Prmers are either good or bad. If they are not going to work, it's not about first or second strikes.

    Primers in the package are in fact not 'armed' until they are seated. If you examine a live primer closely, you will see that the anvil feet protude beyond the rim slightly.

    As the primer is seated, the last bit of seating compresses these feet even with the rim, sensitizing the primer compound capsule. Until this relationship between feet and rim is established, the primer is not 'armed'.

    When the primer is not completely seated, most of the firing pin's energy is dissipated by forcing the primer cup deeper into the pocket, and by the time the primer finally gets fully seated and sensitized, not enough energy remains to initiate ignition. The second strike achieves what the first couldn't. If things are really bad it takes more than on firing pin strike to complete the seating process.

    Excessive headspace is a different problem, but the net effect is very similar; click but no bang.

    Also, and I know this is a D'oh, make sure the bolt handle is all the way down. I did this very thing three clicks in a row this past Wednesday. The headspace on that particular round was a bit snug, and the bolt was binding just enough on closure that I never noticed it wasn't going all the way down. I'm actually quite fortunate that the rifle would not achieve ignition with the bolt lugs only partially engaged, and I'm wondering if this may be a deliberate Savage design feature. If so; good show.

    Greg </div></div>
    +1
    I've done that and not seated a primer right in.
    My Lee primer seating tool wore out in the cam. I brought it in 1984.
    It was not pushing the primer to the bottom of the primer pocket. It took the hit of the firing pin to seat the primer.
    Then next shot it would detonate the primer.
    I brought a K&M primer seating tool to seat primers.
    Problem solved.
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: Primer "missfire"

    I appreciate that many here feel a manual priming tool is the be all, end all priming implement. I respect that belief.

    I have never, ever used any priming tool, except to be polite to friends who feel it just unforgivable not to show me the error of my ways, except the automatic priming system on my Dillon RL550B. My friends tell me I can never experience the sensitivity and precision that a manual tool provides.

    Mayhap, but the Dillon has also never let me down.

    Manipulating that big lever delicately with two fingers is not as blunt an instrument as many may here believe. I can easily detect the primer bottoming, and the way the baseplate is designed, a significantly high primer does not permit the baseplate to rotate to the next station.

    Moreover, no matter what priming system one uses, if one is not feel-checking primer seating depth at some point in teh overall process, one is not employing due diligence to the ammunition fabrication task.

    Greg