Here are some interesting pictures of a primer that after being fired had a pin whole in the wall. It must have had a week spot in the outer casing of the primer.
- Thread starter hugo121175
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Re: Primer Pin Whole
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recarga</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This could be from a low pressure or high pressure loads and it will also be from from primers not seated properly. Or HEAD space.
What kind of load are you running?
I had some pierced primers on a load last month also. </div></div>
Sorry I jump in to a conclusion tough you had a pierced primer. Now that I read the post.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: recarga</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This could be from a low pressure or high pressure loads and it will also be from from primers not seated properly. Or HEAD space.
What kind of load are you running?
I had some pierced primers on a load last month also. </div></div>
Sorry I jump in to a conclusion tough you had a pierced primer. Now that I read the post.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Check to see if the gas jet damaged the bolt face.
Check to see if the gas jet damaged the bolt face.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Bolt face is in good shape...
.284 Win Modified to allow 180gr SMK's
175gr SMK
54.9gr H4831sc
Winchester WLRM Primer
Win Brass
Bolt face is in good shape...
.284 Win Modified to allow 180gr SMK's
175gr SMK
54.9gr H4831sc
Winchester WLRM Primer
Win Brass
Re: Primer Pin Whole
What brand primer?
What brand primer?
Re: Primer Pin Whole
That looks like excessive pressure, to me? Even if you don't pay attention to the odd hole in the primer itself, and the cratering. The primer pocket of the case looks like it will not hold a new primer.
It would help if we had a little load information. Is this a once fired case? Do you have other examples of the same load that do not show any damage? What is the load? What velocity? Is this a load you have fired before without a problem? (which I seriously doubt)
I would not focus on the primer and assume that it is the problem. Offhand, it looks like pilot error? BB
That looks like excessive pressure, to me? Even if you don't pay attention to the odd hole in the primer itself, and the cratering. The primer pocket of the case looks like it will not hold a new primer.
It would help if we had a little load information. Is this a once fired case? Do you have other examples of the same load that do not show any damage? What is the load? What velocity? Is this a load you have fired before without a problem? (which I seriously doubt)
I would not focus on the primer and assume that it is the problem. Offhand, it looks like pilot error? BB
Re: Primer Pin Whole
it looks like a hot load , crater'd primer with excessive flow , carbon leakage and pierced primer ( though the leakage is probably from the hole).
. You might have a casehead mark near the "4" , but i can't tell.
check your firing pin / spring for carbon deposits.
it looks like a hot load , crater'd primer with excessive flow , carbon leakage and pierced primer ( though the leakage is probably from the hole).
. You might have a casehead mark near the "4" , but i can't tell.
check your firing pin / spring for carbon deposits.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Amazing thing is I just had a .308 load do the exact same thing!! My load was 44.0 Varget 175 SMK, WW brass. I think that particular round had Remington primers in it. Not sure on the primer because my ammo box got tipped over and I had WW and Remington primers in it. In 25 years of loading I have never seen a primer do that. The shot was good but I had a puff of smoke from the receiver. My bolt face was fine. FWIW it was fired in a custom 700 with a 1/10 Pac Nor barrel.
FWIW I generally only buy WW primers. My supplier was out at the time and I ended up with the Remingtons. Also worth noting, in the 1K of Remington primers I have had about twenty (20) fail to fire. Even after multiple strikes they would not fire. After pulling the bullet and punching the primer ( primer removed) it would fire if smacked with a hammer. I also had the same problem with SR Remington primers I bought at the same time when shooting my AR.
I am puzzled by it.
Amazing thing is I just had a .308 load do the exact same thing!! My load was 44.0 Varget 175 SMK, WW brass. I think that particular round had Remington primers in it. Not sure on the primer because my ammo box got tipped over and I had WW and Remington primers in it. In 25 years of loading I have never seen a primer do that. The shot was good but I had a puff of smoke from the receiver. My bolt face was fine. FWIW it was fired in a custom 700 with a 1/10 Pac Nor barrel.
FWIW I generally only buy WW primers. My supplier was out at the time and I ended up with the Remingtons. Also worth noting, in the 1K of Remington primers I have had about twenty (20) fail to fire. Even after multiple strikes they would not fire. After pulling the bullet and punching the primer ( primer removed) it would fire if smacked with a hammer. I also had the same problem with SR Remington primers I bought at the same time when shooting my AR.
I am puzzled by it.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Looks like you're popping primers. Back the load down.
Looks like you're popping primers. Back the load down.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
"It must have had a week spot in the outer casing of the primer."
Yep. But it's not common and it has little or nothing to do with headspace or excessive pressure, as such.
You're lucky if you didn't get a burn pit on the face of your bolt. The burns are un-slightly but not dangerous.
All makers get their case and cup brass sheeting in massive rolls from metal suppliers. Defects in the sheeting happens randomly and they all get flawed rolls of brass from time to time so the brand is irrelivant; there's nothing the primer makers can do about it unless you have a dated sales slip and can return the rest of those to your dealer for exchange.
I've always just religated the rest of the primers from that tray - or brick - to lower pressure loads like .30-30 or .35 Remington and have never had further problems until another one occurs in another batch.
"It must have had a week spot in the outer casing of the primer."
Yep. But it's not common and it has little or nothing to do with headspace or excessive pressure, as such.
You're lucky if you didn't get a burn pit on the face of your bolt. The burns are un-slightly but not dangerous.
All makers get their case and cup brass sheeting in massive rolls from metal suppliers. Defects in the sheeting happens randomly and they all get flawed rolls of brass from time to time so the brand is irrelivant; there's nothing the primer makers can do about it unless you have a dated sales slip and can return the rest of those to your dealer for exchange.
I've always just religated the rest of the primers from that tray - or brick - to lower pressure loads like .30-30 or .35 Remington and have never had further problems until another one occurs in another batch.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
In my instance I do not think it was over pressure. It is a relatively stout load in this particular rifle. But I have fired hundreds of rounds of the same load in the same gun and with all the same components,conditions ect. with nary a problem. I thought for sure that I would have some gas cutting on my bolt face but did not. In reality though I did almost pull all of the remaining loads. I sure as heck can't afford to be blowing up my junk right now.
In my instance I do not think it was over pressure. It is a relatively stout load in this particular rifle. But I have fired hundreds of rounds of the same load in the same gun and with all the same components,conditions ect. with nary a problem. I thought for sure that I would have some gas cutting on my bolt face but did not. In reality though I did almost pull all of the remaining loads. I sure as heck can't afford to be blowing up my junk right now.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
A free opinion, worth about what you paid for it: It looks to me like a compilation of errors. A bit too much headspace, stout load,weakened firing pin spring/worn firing pin, enlarged flash hole. Maybe not all of these at once but a couple of them?
The case head shows shiny marks, flowback and cratering on the primer, and the flash hole looks large to me.
A free opinion, worth about what you paid for it: It looks to me like a compilation of errors. A bit too much headspace, stout load,weakened firing pin spring/worn firing pin, enlarged flash hole. Maybe not all of these at once but a couple of them?
The case head shows shiny marks, flowback and cratering on the primer, and the flash hole looks large to me.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Looking at Hoghdon's site, the load is 2 grains below max for a 175 projectile.
That said, as I have learned from this and other sources and tested with hands on, of course each rifle, case preparation regimen and cartridge assembly will result in a different pressure map.
I'm in the failed primer cup camp. I would relegate those primers to a lower duty job and remap your load with a different brand.
I'll mention the obvious:
Case overall length within spec.
Distance to lands reasonable or known jamming. Mostly for me consistent.
Load chron'd and correlated to manufacturers published velocities. What I call a reasonableness check, FWIW: If my lower than max charge load was as fast as a published load at max charge, I'd be suspicious of high pressures.
Be safe and have fun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"It must have had a week spot in the outer casing of the primer."
Yep. But it's not common and it has little or nothing to do with headspace or excessive pressure, as such.
You're lucky if you didn't get a burn pit on the face of your bolt. The burns are un-slightly but not dangerous.
All makers get their case and cup brass sheeting in massive rolls from metal suppliers. Defects in the sheeting happens randomly and they all get flawed rolls of brass from time to time so the brand is irrelivant; there's nothing the primer makers can do about it unless you have a dated sales slip and can return the rest of those to your dealer for exchange.
I've always just religated the rest of the primers from that tray - or brick - to lower pressure loads like .30-30 or .35 Remington and have never had further problems until another one occurs in another batch.
</div></div>
Looking at Hoghdon's site, the load is 2 grains below max for a 175 projectile.
That said, as I have learned from this and other sources and tested with hands on, of course each rifle, case preparation regimen and cartridge assembly will result in a different pressure map.
I'm in the failed primer cup camp. I would relegate those primers to a lower duty job and remap your load with a different brand.
I'll mention the obvious:
Case overall length within spec.
Distance to lands reasonable or known jamming. Mostly for me consistent.
Load chron'd and correlated to manufacturers published velocities. What I call a reasonableness check, FWIW: If my lower than max charge load was as fast as a published load at max charge, I'd be suspicious of high pressures.
Be safe and have fun
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"It must have had a week spot in the outer casing of the primer."
Yep. But it's not common and it has little or nothing to do with headspace or excessive pressure, as such.
You're lucky if you didn't get a burn pit on the face of your bolt. The burns are un-slightly but not dangerous.
All makers get their case and cup brass sheeting in massive rolls from metal suppliers. Defects in the sheeting happens randomly and they all get flawed rolls of brass from time to time so the brand is irrelivant; there's nothing the primer makers can do about it unless you have a dated sales slip and can return the rest of those to your dealer for exchange.
I've always just religated the rest of the primers from that tray - or brick - to lower pressure loads like .30-30 or .35 Remington and have never had further problems until another one occurs in another batch.
</div></div>
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Well, I have to admit that I have never seen a primer failure. It must be extremely rare, and looks, (to a seasoned observer) exactly like a hot load. I cannot place any confidence in charts telling me the load should be safe. There will always be the possibility that <span style="text-decoration: underline"> this particular cartridge</span> contained more powder than the others that were loaded at the same time or was not seated as deeply as the rest in that batch. So, since I am a simple man; and possibly stubborn, as well, (kinda like, it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck) the headstamp appears to show classic signs of an overpressure load. I think it is just a happy circumstance that the firing pin detent was not pierced, and it blew out the edge, and (again) in a classic situation, would show a perfect circle of failure around the primer and primer pocket. In a perfect world, I would like to see a primer failure without the cratering and without the primer pocket disintegration. BB
Well, I have to admit that I have never seen a primer failure. It must be extremely rare, and looks, (to a seasoned observer) exactly like a hot load. I cannot place any confidence in charts telling me the load should be safe. There will always be the possibility that <span style="text-decoration: underline"> this particular cartridge</span> contained more powder than the others that were loaded at the same time or was not seated as deeply as the rest in that batch. So, since I am a simple man; and possibly stubborn, as well, (kinda like, it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck) the headstamp appears to show classic signs of an overpressure load. I think it is just a happy circumstance that the firing pin detent was not pierced, and it blew out the edge, and (again) in a classic situation, would show a perfect circle of failure around the primer and primer pocket. In a perfect world, I would like to see a primer failure without the cratering and without the primer pocket disintegration. BB
Re: Primer Pin Whole
This has happened yet again... The load is 52.5ksi, and not even close to "Hot"... I called Winchester, but got a voice mail that will most likely never be returned...
Here is my data:
Action: Remington 700 Long Action
Barrel: Hart 26" Stainless 1:8tw
Chamber: .284 Winchester
Brass: Winchester 284
Primer: Winchester WLRM
Powder: Hodgdon 4831sc 54.5gr
Bullet: Hornady 162gr A-Max
OAL: 3.200" / .052" Jump
This has happened yet again... The load is 52.5ksi, and not even close to "Hot"... I called Winchester, but got a voice mail that will most likely never be returned...
Here is my data:
Action: Remington 700 Long Action
Barrel: Hart 26" Stainless 1:8tw
Chamber: .284 Winchester
Brass: Winchester 284
Primer: Winchester WLRM
Powder: Hodgdon 4831sc 54.5gr
Bullet: Hornady 162gr A-Max
OAL: 3.200" / .052" Jump
Re: Primer Pin Whole
I would switch primers. I don't think it's the powder charge causing the problem. I would switch to a different magnum primer, like a CCI #250. They have the thickest primer cup available.
I would switch primers. I don't think it's the powder charge causing the problem. I would switch to a different magnum primer, like a CCI #250. They have the thickest primer cup available.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Ok, I had the exact thing happen as well x 2. A proven load that has never been a problem; 168 SMK and 45.0 of varget, WLR and Win brass, plenty of jump in a Rem 700 with 100% verified head space. Not a hot load...
The brass had a few firings on it and initially I thought maybe the pockets were getting loose. But looking at the primer, I noticed the cup pierced vice leakage around the primer. As others are now having this issue "pop" up, I am inclined to think there is a bad batch of primers.
I am on the road, but will edit later with the batch number.
Other thoughts?
ZY
BYW Hugo, your first pics look like possible "warm" load, but mine look just like your second pics.
Ok, I had the exact thing happen as well x 2. A proven load that has never been a problem; 168 SMK and 45.0 of varget, WLR and Win brass, plenty of jump in a Rem 700 with 100% verified head space. Not a hot load...
The brass had a few firings on it and initially I thought maybe the pockets were getting loose. But looking at the primer, I noticed the cup pierced vice leakage around the primer. As others are now having this issue "pop" up, I am inclined to think there is a bad batch of primers.
I am on the road, but will edit later with the batch number.
Other thoughts?
ZY
BYW Hugo, your first pics look like possible "warm" load, but mine look just like your second pics.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
The loads are far less the SAAMI max pressure..... The first load is at 56.3ksi, and the second 52.5ksi (Engineer Confirmed), so not "Hot" at all.....
Did just get a return call from Winchester. They want me to mail in five loaded rounds, the defective primers (With Brass), and load data. They are sending the UPS guy by my house to pick everything up. I wonder what will come of this, since they didn't get back to me the first time it happened.....
The loads are far less the SAAMI max pressure..... The first load is at 56.3ksi, and the second 52.5ksi (Engineer Confirmed), so not "Hot" at all.....
Did just get a return call from Winchester. They want me to mail in five loaded rounds, the defective primers (With Brass), and load data. They are sending the UPS guy by my house to pick everything up. I wonder what will come of this, since they didn't get back to me the first time it happened.....
Re: Primer Pin Whole
I too have had the exact problem with wlr primers in a .308. About 5 out of 50 were doing this, and all well below Max pressure using hornady and federal brass. I think it's just a bad batch so am switching to cci primers and will try the same and new brass.
I too have had the exact problem with wlr primers in a .308. About 5 out of 50 were doing this, and all well below Max pressure using hornady and federal brass. I think it's just a bad batch so am switching to cci primers and will try the same and new brass.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
The Chinese have bought up the good precious metals for infrastructure building so these primers have a little pewter in them.
Can only be two things: defective case or primer material, or excessive pressure.
Excessive pressure can have several sources, two of which are equipment issues or human error.
The Chinese have bought up the good precious metals for infrastructure building so these primers have a little pewter in them.
Can only be two things: defective case or primer material, or excessive pressure.
Excessive pressure can have several sources, two of which are equipment issues or human error.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Yeah Hugo, thats wild. Definitely not a pressure issue as you and I are running the same chamber from the same reamer and my load for 162 is in the same range as yours. 54.5 is the starting point for 162 in my .284
While it shouldnt be a hot load, I noticed that you do have some pretty flat primers as well as decent cupping where the primer is flowing back around the firing pin.
Yeah Hugo, thats wild. Definitely not a pressure issue as you and I are running the same chamber from the same reamer and my load for 162 is in the same range as yours. 54.5 is the starting point for 162 in my .284
While it shouldnt be a hot load, I noticed that you do have some pretty flat primers as well as decent cupping where the primer is flowing back around the firing pin.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
hugo,
These may not be hot loads by the book but in your images there are shiny ejector marks, primer flow into the case primer pocket and primer flow around the firing pin. I have two Remington 700 rifles myself and the firing pin holes do not usually have that much flow even on very hot loads where the primers are flush with the primer pockets and there are ejector marks. I think this might be a case of a lot of marginal conditions coming together to cause you a problem. I'm pretty sure that when the loads get put into a pressure barrel they will not show up as hot but if you were to run a pressure test on your rifle you would find the loads are hotter than you think.
I hope it all works out for you and have good luck with Winchester finding the issue(s)!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here are some interesting pictures of a primer that after being fired had a pin whole in the wall. It must have had a week spot in the outer casing of the primer.
</div></div>
hugo,
These may not be hot loads by the book but in your images there are shiny ejector marks, primer flow into the case primer pocket and primer flow around the firing pin. I have two Remington 700 rifles myself and the firing pin holes do not usually have that much flow even on very hot loads where the primers are flush with the primer pockets and there are ejector marks. I think this might be a case of a lot of marginal conditions coming together to cause you a problem. I'm pretty sure that when the loads get put into a pressure barrel they will not show up as hot but if you were to run a pressure test on your rifle you would find the loads are hotter than you think.
I hope it all works out for you and have good luck with Winchester finding the issue(s)!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here are some interesting pictures of a primer that after being fired had a pin whole in the wall. It must have had a week spot in the outer casing of the primer.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
I feel kinda stupid for jumping on the 'it happen to me too' wagon, but it did. Last night, .300wm, wlr primer. It shot fine and hit the target. It blew tiny specs of something in my face. Didn't hurt, but it was a good reminder to keep the glasses on (they were off because it was getting dark). I don't know if I still have the box from the primers, but I have the case sitting uncleaned in my tumbler. I'll try to grab a photo.
I feel kinda stupid for jumping on the 'it happen to me too' wagon, but it did. Last night, .300wm, wlr primer. It shot fine and hit the target. It blew tiny specs of something in my face. Didn't hurt, but it was a good reminder to keep the glasses on (they were off because it was getting dark). I don't know if I still have the box from the primers, but I have the case sitting uncleaned in my tumbler. I'll try to grab a photo.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Yikes!!!
Looks to be an issue with WLR primers.
Glad that I only use Federal Primers...
Yikes!!!
Looks to be an issue with WLR primers.
Glad that I only use Federal Primers...
Re: Primer Pin Whole
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MtnCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I feel kinda stupid for jumping on the 'it happen to me too' wagon, but it did. Last night, .300wm, wlr primer. It shot fine and hit the target. It blew tiny specs of something in my face. Didn't hurt, but it was a good reminder to keep the glasses on (they were off because it was getting dark). I don't know if I still have the box from the primers, but I have the case sitting uncleaned in my tumbler. I'll try to grab a photo. </div></div>
Don't feel stupid, you should feel lucky you did not get hurt. Getting dark? It could have been permanently dark for you, keep your protective gear on!
Of course there might be something a little bit sub par with the primer cup material causing people to have issues like these. It may have been a marginal primer lot of Large Rifle primers that the problem shows up when used with higher pressures. Both you and the OP are running higher pressure rounds. But who knows maybe there will be a recall for certain lots or primers.
Stay safe!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MtnCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I feel kinda stupid for jumping on the 'it happen to me too' wagon, but it did. Last night, .300wm, wlr primer. It shot fine and hit the target. It blew tiny specs of something in my face. Didn't hurt, but it was a good reminder to keep the glasses on (they were off because it was getting dark). I don't know if I still have the box from the primers, but I have the case sitting uncleaned in my tumbler. I'll try to grab a photo. </div></div>
Don't feel stupid, you should feel lucky you did not get hurt. Getting dark? It could have been permanently dark for you, keep your protective gear on!
Of course there might be something a little bit sub par with the primer cup material causing people to have issues like these. It may have been a marginal primer lot of Large Rifle primers that the problem shows up when used with higher pressures. Both you and the OP are running higher pressure rounds. But who knows maybe there will be a recall for certain lots or primers.
Stay safe!
Re: Primer Pin Whole
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The loads are far less the SAAMI max pressure..... The first load is at 56.3ksi, and the second 52.5ksi (Engineer Confirmed), so not "Hot" at all.....
</div></div>
Show us pics of your strain gauge setup and printout from the testing please.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The loads are far less the SAAMI max pressure..... The first load is at 56.3ksi, and the second 52.5ksi (Engineer Confirmed), so not "Hot" at all.....
</div></div>
Show us pics of your strain gauge setup and printout from the testing please.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Wish I had one.... (Maybe after a collect my lottery winnings
) I have a close friend of mine who is an engineer, and he worked it out for me. I'm sure that is one of the test that Winchester will be doing conducting on the five loaded rounds that I am sending them....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The loads are far less the SAAMI max pressure..... The first load is at 56.3ksi, and the second 52.5ksi (Engineer Confirmed), so not "Hot" at all.....
</div></div>
Show us pics of your strain gauge setup and printout from the testing please. </div></div>
Wish I had one.... (Maybe after a collect my lottery winnings
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The loads are far less the SAAMI max pressure..... The first load is at 56.3ksi, and the second 52.5ksi (Engineer Confirmed), so not "Hot" at all.....
</div></div>
Show us pics of your strain gauge setup and printout from the testing please. </div></div>
Re: Primer Pin Whole
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wish I had one.... (Maybe after a collect my lottery winnings ) I have a close friend of mine who is an engineer, and he worked it out for me. I'm sure that is one of the test that Winchester will be doing conducting on the five loaded rounds that I am sending them....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The loads are far less the SAAMI max pressure..... The first load is at 56.3ksi, and the second 52.5ksi (Engineer Confirmed), so not "Hot" at all.....
</div></div>
Show us pics of your strain gauge setup and printout from the testing please. </div></div> </div></div>
I don't care who your friend is both he and you have no idea what the pressure in the chamber is. If he is actually a mech E he was sleeping in class. This is a very simple thing which like a battle plan goes all to hell once the trigger is pulled.
Software modeling like Quickload etc. needs good initial data to even come close and cannot produce the same level of certainty about chamber pressure as a strain gauge with a data logger on the other end of the cable. Heck did you measure your case volume? Do you know how much volume you have in the loaded case? Do you know how much jump your bullets are making or are they jammed?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wish I had one.... (Maybe after a collect my lottery winnings
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The loads are far less the SAAMI max pressure..... The first load is at 56.3ksi, and the second 52.5ksi (Engineer Confirmed), so not "Hot" at all.....
</div></div>
Show us pics of your strain gauge setup and printout from the testing please. </div></div> </div></div>
I don't care who your friend is both he and you have no idea what the pressure in the chamber is. If he is actually a mech E he was sleeping in class. This is a very simple thing which like a battle plan goes all to hell once the trigger is pulled.
Software modeling like Quickload etc. needs good initial data to even come close and cannot produce the same level of certainty about chamber pressure as a strain gauge with a data logger on the other end of the cable. Heck did you measure your case volume? Do you know how much volume you have in the loaded case? Do you know how much jump your bullets are making or are they jammed?
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Barrel from bolt face to muzzle: 26 1/8" 1:8tw
Case Capacity in grains of water (average of ten cases using distilled water): 65.48
OAL (On Lands: 3.252"
Bullet: 162gr A-Max (1.432" length)
Powder: H4831sc
You'd be surprised what a man and his calculator can do.... Don't be a dick if you don't know who you're talking too, or what their education is.... Run the numbers if you like, then piss off....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wish I had one.... (Maybe after a collect my lottery winnings ) I have a close friend of mine who is an engineer, and he worked it out for me. I'm sure that is one of the test that Winchester will be doing conducting on the five loaded rounds that I am sending them....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The loads are far less the SAAMI max pressure..... The first load is at 56.3ksi, and the second 52.5ksi (Engineer Confirmed), so not "Hot" at all.....
</div></div>
Show us pics of your strain gauge setup and printout from the testing please. </div></div> </div></div>
I don't care who your friend is both he and you have no idea what the pressure in the chamber is. If he is actually a mech E he was sleeping in class. This is a very simple thing which like a battle plane goes all to hell once the trigger is pulled.
Software modeling like Quickload etc. needs good initial data to even come close and cannot produce the same level of certainty about chamber pressure as a strain gauge with a data logger on the other end of the cable. Heck did you measure your case volume? Do you know how much volume you have in the loaded case? Do you know how much jump your bullets are making or are they jammed?
</div></div>
Barrel from bolt face to muzzle: 26 1/8" 1:8tw
Case Capacity in grains of water (average of ten cases using distilled water): 65.48
OAL (On Lands: 3.252"
Bullet: 162gr A-Max (1.432" length)
Powder: H4831sc
You'd be surprised what a man and his calculator can do.... Don't be a dick if you don't know who you're talking too, or what their education is.... Run the numbers if you like, then piss off....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wish I had one.... (Maybe after a collect my lottery winnings
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The loads are far less the SAAMI max pressure..... The first load is at 56.3ksi, and the second 52.5ksi (Engineer Confirmed), so not "Hot" at all.....
</div></div>
Show us pics of your strain gauge setup and printout from the testing please. </div></div> </div></div>
I don't care who your friend is both he and you have no idea what the pressure in the chamber is. If he is actually a mech E he was sleeping in class. This is a very simple thing which like a battle plane goes all to hell once the trigger is pulled.
Software modeling like Quickload etc. needs good initial data to even come close and cannot produce the same level of certainty about chamber pressure as a strain gauge with a data logger on the other end of the cable. Heck did you measure your case volume? Do you know how much volume you have in the loaded case? Do you know how much jump your bullets are making or are they jammed?
</div></div>
Re: Primer Pin Whole
I don't know? I have looked at the photos, looks like a hot load, to me.
What bothers me a little, on this board we have a lot of blame for component failure, bad dies, shit brass, crummy presses and now primers with weak cup material. Statistically, primers are manufactured by the thousands, hundreds of thousands every day and the engineering that goes into making such a simple and reliable component that is designed to go boom every time. I just doubt that we have a bad primer, the odds alone are against it.
The primer pocket is enlarged, a sign of a hot load. You have excessive cratering, another sign of a hot load, and you have ejector marks on the case head, a very reliable sign of excessive pressure. Don't forget, it's possible for primers to leak all around the outside of the pocket. Why the primer burned through in the corner, I don't know, but I would not look at that single clue and discount all the others and conclude that this is a bad/defective primer.
How about some data? How many rounds of this particular load have you fired, how many were loaded and only had two failures? Is this a load that you have been using for a long time or is it something new?
I further doubt that Winchester will be able to test the hell out of what remains and give you/us an answer. Some things are unknowable. But, if it looks like a duck....
BB
I don't know? I have looked at the photos, looks like a hot load, to me.
What bothers me a little, on this board we have a lot of blame for component failure, bad dies, shit brass, crummy presses and now primers with weak cup material. Statistically, primers are manufactured by the thousands, hundreds of thousands every day and the engineering that goes into making such a simple and reliable component that is designed to go boom every time. I just doubt that we have a bad primer, the odds alone are against it.
The primer pocket is enlarged, a sign of a hot load. You have excessive cratering, another sign of a hot load, and you have ejector marks on the case head, a very reliable sign of excessive pressure. Don't forget, it's possible for primers to leak all around the outside of the pocket. Why the primer burned through in the corner, I don't know, but I would not look at that single clue and discount all the others and conclude that this is a bad/defective primer.
How about some data? How many rounds of this particular load have you fired, how many were loaded and only had two failures? Is this a load that you have been using for a long time or is it something new?
I further doubt that Winchester will be able to test the hell out of what remains and give you/us an answer. Some things are unknowable. But, if it looks like a duck....
BB
Re: Primer Pin Whole
In mine, the load was not really proven. I was trying to get a scope a little closer to zero. Night before, I loaded/shot 8 rds. Last night, loaded 4 more. In both cases, the brass was Rem brass that I don't use, so I dropped the charge 1gr and used WLR primers in lieu of WLR-m primers. Powder was from proven can. The data was based on a proven load using Win brass and Mag primers, so three things were changed.
1) Powder Charge Dropped 1gr. I don't see that doing it.
2) Different Brass. I think Rem is thinner than Win; will have to check. Brass is old and should be scrapped - potential there...
3) Standard Primer in lieu of Mag. Maybe something there. If the load is still hot, despite dropping the charge a gr, the load could have been at the edge of what the softer cup could handle (assuming sta is softer than mag)
Or it was a weak spot in the primer. Winchester makes a bunch of the (I know because I've bought a ton of them) and no one is going to have 100% success, not me or Winchester....
Edit:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Getting dark? It could have been permanently dark for you, keep your protective gear on! </div></div>
Yea, it was not a wise thing to do and I was 50yds from the house and could have just walked in and got some clear glasses. Maybe it happen for a reason....
In mine, the load was not really proven. I was trying to get a scope a little closer to zero. Night before, I loaded/shot 8 rds. Last night, loaded 4 more. In both cases, the brass was Rem brass that I don't use, so I dropped the charge 1gr and used WLR primers in lieu of WLR-m primers. Powder was from proven can. The data was based on a proven load using Win brass and Mag primers, so three things were changed.
1) Powder Charge Dropped 1gr. I don't see that doing it.
2) Different Brass. I think Rem is thinner than Win; will have to check. Brass is old and should be scrapped - potential there...
3) Standard Primer in lieu of Mag. Maybe something there. If the load is still hot, despite dropping the charge a gr, the load could have been at the edge of what the softer cup could handle (assuming sta is softer than mag)
Or it was a weak spot in the primer. Winchester makes a bunch of the (I know because I've bought a ton of them) and no one is going to have 100% success, not me or Winchester....
Edit:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Getting dark? It could have been permanently dark for you, keep your protective gear on! </div></div>
Yea, it was not a wise thing to do and I was 50yds from the house and could have just walked in and got some clear glasses. Maybe it happen for a reason....
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Primer pocket was not enlarged. This was these cases third time being fired, and primer tension was good when seating. They may "Appear" to be enlarged in the photos due to the jet blast that flowed around the recess.
Cratering could also be from too tin of cup material when forming the primers. (I didn't get results like this from Federal Gold Metal Primers) Not hard to figure out that with the cost of materials, using thinner material will save a company lots of money. Also, this lot was produce during increased demand for product, which could reduce QC.
I have not ever removed a primer from a rifle case, and have a "Clean" primer pocket. Stopping all the escaping gas from exiting around the primer in near impossible.
I do agree that that all other clues should not be discounted, but I didn't just blurt shit out without doing my own investigation first.
Answers to your questions:
1. Of the load from June at or around 600 rounds of this load with one failure, and 20 of the most recent load with one failure
2. This most recent load was just developed.
I have over 200 rounds load with these primers, so I can mail them as many as they like.... Maybe they'll be able to figure something out. A benchrest shooter at my club had a similar problem a month ago with the same primers....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know? I have looked at the photos, looks like a hot load, to me.
What bothers me a little, on this board we have a lot of blame for component failure, bad dies, shit brass, crummy presses and now primers with weak cup material. Statistically, primers are manufactured by the thousands, hundreds of thousands every day and the engineering that goes into making such a simple and reliable component that is designed to go boom every time. I just doubt that we have a bad primer, the odds alone are against it.
The primer pocket is enlarged, a sign of a hot load. You have excessive cratering, another sign of a hot load, and you have ejector marks on the case head, a very reliable sign of excessive pressure. Don't forget, it's possible for primers to leak all around the outside of the pocket. Why the primer burned through in the corner, I don't know, but I would not look at that single clue and discount all the others and conclude that this is a bad/defective primer.
How about some data? How many rounds of this particular load have you fired, how many were loaded and only had two failures? Is this a load that you have been using for a long time or is it something new?
I further doubt that Winchester will be able to test the hell out of what remains and give you/us an answer. Some things are unknowable. But, if it looks like a duck....
BB </div></div>
Primer pocket was not enlarged. This was these cases third time being fired, and primer tension was good when seating. They may "Appear" to be enlarged in the photos due to the jet blast that flowed around the recess.
Cratering could also be from too tin of cup material when forming the primers. (I didn't get results like this from Federal Gold Metal Primers) Not hard to figure out that with the cost of materials, using thinner material will save a company lots of money. Also, this lot was produce during increased demand for product, which could reduce QC.
I have not ever removed a primer from a rifle case, and have a "Clean" primer pocket. Stopping all the escaping gas from exiting around the primer in near impossible.
I do agree that that all other clues should not be discounted, but I didn't just blurt shit out without doing my own investigation first.
Answers to your questions:
1. Of the load from June at or around 600 rounds of this load with one failure, and 20 of the most recent load with one failure
2. This most recent load was just developed.
I have over 200 rounds load with these primers, so I can mail them as many as they like.... Maybe they'll be able to figure something out. A benchrest shooter at my club had a similar problem a month ago with the same primers....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know? I have looked at the photos, looks like a hot load, to me.
What bothers me a little, on this board we have a lot of blame for component failure, bad dies, shit brass, crummy presses and now primers with weak cup material. Statistically, primers are manufactured by the thousands, hundreds of thousands every day and the engineering that goes into making such a simple and reliable component that is designed to go boom every time. I just doubt that we have a bad primer, the odds alone are against it.
The primer pocket is enlarged, a sign of a hot load. You have excessive cratering, another sign of a hot load, and you have ejector marks on the case head, a very reliable sign of excessive pressure. Don't forget, it's possible for primers to leak all around the outside of the pocket. Why the primer burned through in the corner, I don't know, but I would not look at that single clue and discount all the others and conclude that this is a bad/defective primer.
How about some data? How many rounds of this particular load have you fired, how many were loaded and only had two failures? Is this a load that you have been using for a long time or is it something new?
I further doubt that Winchester will be able to test the hell out of what remains and give you/us an answer. Some things are unknowable. But, if it looks like a duck....
BB </div></div>
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Over the last year here on the hide, I've read at least 10 reports of holes being blown in Winchester primers.
Additionally, a local friend that uses Winchester primers recently started getting blown, pinholed and pierced primers on a known-good load.
Over the last year here on the hide, I've read at least 10 reports of holes being blown in Winchester primers.
Additionally, a local friend that uses Winchester primers recently started getting blown, pinholed and pierced primers on a known-good load.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wish I had one.... (Maybe after a collect my lottery winnings ) I have a close friend of mine who is an engineer, and he worked it out for me. I'm sure that is one of the test that Winchester will be doing conducting on the five loaded rounds that I am sending them....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The loads are far less the SAAMI max pressure..... The first load is at 56.3ksi, and the second 52.5ksi (Engineer Confirmed), so not "Hot" at all.....
</div></div>
Show us pics of your strain gauge setup and printout from the testing please. </div></div> </div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">I don't care who your friend is both he and you have no idea what the pressure in the chamber is. If he is actually a mech E he was sleeping in class. </span>This is a very simple thing which like a battle plane goes all to hell once the trigger is pulled.
Software modeling like Quickload etc. needs good initial data to even come close and cannot produce the same level of certainty about chamber pressure as a strain gauge with a data logger on the other end of the cable. Heck did you measure your case volume? Do you know how much volume you have in the loaded case? Do you know how much jump your bullets are making or are they jammed?
</div></div>
Here we go again. Let me get my popcorn..
And YAOG,, everything you questioned was done and then some as I know how this load was worked up. You may want to step down from your high horse for just a second and try and provide useful commentary vs temper-mental ranting.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wish I had one.... (Maybe after a collect my lottery winnings
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The loads are far less the SAAMI max pressure..... The first load is at 56.3ksi, and the second 52.5ksi (Engineer Confirmed), so not "Hot" at all.....
</div></div>
Show us pics of your strain gauge setup and printout from the testing please. </div></div> </div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">I don't care who your friend is both he and you have no idea what the pressure in the chamber is. If he is actually a mech E he was sleeping in class. </span>This is a very simple thing which like a battle plane goes all to hell once the trigger is pulled.
Software modeling like Quickload etc. needs good initial data to even come close and cannot produce the same level of certainty about chamber pressure as a strain gauge with a data logger on the other end of the cable. Heck did you measure your case volume? Do you know how much volume you have in the loaded case? Do you know how much jump your bullets are making or are they jammed?
</div></div>
Here we go again. Let me get my popcorn..
And YAOG,, everything you questioned was done and then some as I know how this load was worked up. You may want to step down from your high horse for just a second and try and provide useful commentary vs temper-mental ranting.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Ya... One of those days...
[/quote]
Here we go again. Let me get my popcorn.. [/quote]
Ya... One of those days...
[/quote]
Here we go again. Let me get my popcorn.. [/quote]
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Okay, there's your answer; bad primers. Alert Winchester to initiate a recall of defective WW primers, then just switch to any non defective brand and everything will be copacetic. End of problem.
Okay, there's your answer; bad primers. Alert Winchester to initiate a recall of defective WW primers, then just switch to any non defective brand and everything will be copacetic. End of problem.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Winchester requested five rounds of this load, so that's what I'm sending them. If they do end up giving a recall, at least it may save someone's eye sight.....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, there's your answer; bad primers. Alert Winchester to initiate a recall of defective WW primers, then just switch to any non defective brand and everything will be copacetic. End of problem. </div></div>
Winchester requested five rounds of this load, so that's what I'm sending them. If they do end up giving a recall, at least it may save someone's eye sight.....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, there's your answer; bad primers. Alert Winchester to initiate a recall of defective WW primers, then just switch to any non defective brand and everything will be copacetic. End of problem. </div></div>
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Na, you're good... I wonder how far apart these lots were produced... DML 228G was my lot number...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MtnCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hugo, Your thread; give me the word and I'll stop posting my stuff in it.
Photos of mine:
</div></div>
Na, you're good... I wonder how far apart these lots were produced... DML 228G was my lot number...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MtnCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hugo, Your thread; give me the word and I'll stop posting my stuff in it.
Photos of mine:
Re: Primer Pin Whole
hugo,
No need to get your panties in a bunch just trying to help resolve your issue and I apologize to your engineer friend.
Back to your problem. Do I understand you correctly? This is a specially cut chamber and you are loading Hornady 162gr A-MAX bullets to 3.200" COAL not the SAAMI standard 2.800" for a 284Win? Can you tell me your powder charge weight? I think you posted 54.9 or 54.5 but your posts show different powder charges.
If this information is correct your friend has predicted your pressures about 3,500psi higher than QuickLOAD predicts. By SAAMI specs your compressed load of 54.9grains of H4831SC is over max. pressure for the cartridge. Are you going by SAAMI specs or CIP?
What is interesting is that QL predicts the velocity of my .308Win loads within +/- 15fps but usually I have serious signs of over pressure by anything over 6,000psi below SAAMI max. pressure for the .308Win cartridge. Can you post what your chrono says your MV is for this load?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barrel from bolt face to muzzle: 26 1/8" 1:8tw
Case Capacity in grains of water (average of ten cases using distilled water): 65.48
OAL (On Lands: 3.252"
Bullet: 162gr A-Max (1.432" length)
Powder: H4831sc
You'd be surprised what a man and his calculator can do.... Don't be a dick if you don't know who you're talking too, or what their education is.... Run the numbers if you like, then piss off....
</div></div>
hugo,
No need to get your panties in a bunch just trying to help resolve your issue and I apologize to your engineer friend.
Back to your problem. Do I understand you correctly? This is a specially cut chamber and you are loading Hornady 162gr A-MAX bullets to 3.200" COAL not the SAAMI standard 2.800" for a 284Win? Can you tell me your powder charge weight? I think you posted 54.9 or 54.5 but your posts show different powder charges.
If this information is correct your friend has predicted your pressures about 3,500psi higher than QuickLOAD predicts. By SAAMI specs your compressed load of 54.9grains of H4831SC is over max. pressure for the cartridge. Are you going by SAAMI specs or CIP?
What is interesting is that QL predicts the velocity of my .308Win loads within +/- 15fps but usually I have serious signs of over pressure by anything over 6,000psi below SAAMI max. pressure for the .308Win cartridge. Can you post what your chrono says your MV is for this load?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barrel from bolt face to muzzle: 26 1/8" 1:8tw
Case Capacity in grains of water (average of ten cases using distilled water): 65.48
OAL (On Lands: 3.252"
Bullet: 162gr A-Max (1.432" length)
Powder: H4831sc
You'd be surprised what a man and his calculator can do.... Don't be a dick if you don't know who you're talking too, or what their education is.... Run the numbers if you like, then piss off....
</div></div>
Re: Primer Pin Whole
First, My engineer friend designed the chamber, and yes it's specially cut to allow 180gr projectiles without loss of case capacity....
Second, I normally fire 180gr SMK's, and 175gr SMK's from this rifle. I was just switching to A-Max for hunting purposes, not target shooting....
Third, these load are "NOT" compressed!!!! My powder charge of H4831sc for 175gr SMK's is 54.9gr @ 2730, and is 54.5gr for 162 A-Max @ 2784.... Velocities where taken from stings of ten, with SD of "8" for the 175gr SMK's, and "22" for the A-Max....
Forth, these projectiles are all jumped. Some farther than others. So, if you used the measurement of 3.252" for the 162gr A-Max in Quickload you would show higher pressures spike. Jump it out, and the pressure spike will be reduced.....
Fifth, SAAMI OAL is not specific to one projectile, or magazine well length. I am firing a "Long Action", so I can load my rounds longer. Once again, to not loss case capacity....
I wouldn't get my "Panties in a twist" if most on this site didn't jump to the conclusion that everyone else is a blundering idiot.... I never once in this thread "Asked" for anyone's opinion (Other than pondering if MtnCreek's lot was related to my own).... I posted this as a warning to those who use this product, as I have noticed numerous similar issues noted on many other reloading / shooting sites. This all considering that Winchester has had primer recalls, it may be necessary again....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
hugo,
No need to get your panties in a bunch just trying to help resolve your issue and I apologize to your engineer friend.
Back to your problem. Do I understand you correctly? This is a specially cut chamber and you are loading Hornady 162gr A-MAX bullets to 3.200" COAL not the SAAMI standard 2.800" for a 284Win? Can you tell me your powder charge weight? I think you posted 54.9 or 54.5 but your posts show different powder charges.
If this information is correct your friend has predicted your pressures about 3,500psi higher than QuickLOAD predicts. By SAAMI specs your compressed load of 54.9grains of H4831SC is over max. pressure for the cartridge. Are you going by SAAMI specs or CIP?
What is interesting is that QL predicts the velocity of my .308Win loads within +/- 15fps but usually I have serious signs of over pressure by anything over 6,000psi below SAAMI max. pressure for the .308Win cartridge. Can you post what your chrono says your MV is for this load?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barrel from bolt face to muzzle: 26 1/8" 1:8tw
Case Capacity in grains of water (average of ten cases using distilled water): 65.48
OAL (On Lands: 3.252"
Bullet: 162gr A-Max (1.432" length)
Powder: H4831sc
You'd be surprised what a man and his calculator can do.... Don't be a dick if you don't know who you're talking too, or what their education is.... Run the numbers if you like, then piss off....
</div></div> </div></div>
First, My engineer friend designed the chamber, and yes it's specially cut to allow 180gr projectiles without loss of case capacity....
Second, I normally fire 180gr SMK's, and 175gr SMK's from this rifle. I was just switching to A-Max for hunting purposes, not target shooting....
Third, these load are "NOT" compressed!!!! My powder charge of H4831sc for 175gr SMK's is 54.9gr @ 2730, and is 54.5gr for 162 A-Max @ 2784.... Velocities where taken from stings of ten, with SD of "8" for the 175gr SMK's, and "22" for the A-Max....
Forth, these projectiles are all jumped. Some farther than others. So, if you used the measurement of 3.252" for the 162gr A-Max in Quickload you would show higher pressures spike. Jump it out, and the pressure spike will be reduced.....
Fifth, SAAMI OAL is not specific to one projectile, or magazine well length. I am firing a "Long Action", so I can load my rounds longer. Once again, to not loss case capacity....
I wouldn't get my "Panties in a twist" if most on this site didn't jump to the conclusion that everyone else is a blundering idiot.... I never once in this thread "Asked" for anyone's opinion (Other than pondering if MtnCreek's lot was related to my own).... I posted this as a warning to those who use this product, as I have noticed numerous similar issues noted on many other reloading / shooting sites. This all considering that Winchester has had primer recalls, it may be necessary again....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
hugo,
No need to get your panties in a bunch just trying to help resolve your issue and I apologize to your engineer friend.
Back to your problem. Do I understand you correctly? This is a specially cut chamber and you are loading Hornady 162gr A-MAX bullets to 3.200" COAL not the SAAMI standard 2.800" for a 284Win? Can you tell me your powder charge weight? I think you posted 54.9 or 54.5 but your posts show different powder charges.
If this information is correct your friend has predicted your pressures about 3,500psi higher than QuickLOAD predicts. By SAAMI specs your compressed load of 54.9grains of H4831SC is over max. pressure for the cartridge. Are you going by SAAMI specs or CIP?
What is interesting is that QL predicts the velocity of my .308Win loads within +/- 15fps but usually I have serious signs of over pressure by anything over 6,000psi below SAAMI max. pressure for the .308Win cartridge. Can you post what your chrono says your MV is for this load?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barrel from bolt face to muzzle: 26 1/8" 1:8tw
Case Capacity in grains of water (average of ten cases using distilled water): 65.48
OAL (On Lands: 3.252"
Bullet: 162gr A-Max (1.432" length)
Powder: H4831sc
You'd be surprised what a man and his calculator can do.... Don't be a dick if you don't know who you're talking too, or what their education is.... Run the numbers if you like, then piss off....
</div></div> </div></div>
Re: Primer Pin Whole
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
By SAAMI specs your compressed load of 54.9grains of H4831SC is over max. pressure for the cartridge.</div></div>
Interesting. Hodgdon manual says 57gr H4831sc is max for a 175gr bullet @ 2.900" COAL.
While the load manual is only directly applicable to the actual rifle the tests were performed on, I find it hard to believe that you could:
1. Increase COAL by .400"
2. Decrease charge by 2.1gr
3. Decrease bullet weight by 13gr
...and be OVER max...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
By SAAMI specs your compressed load of 54.9grains of H4831SC is over max. pressure for the cartridge.</div></div>
Interesting. Hodgdon manual says 57gr H4831sc is max for a 175gr bullet @ 2.900" COAL.
While the load manual is only directly applicable to the actual rifle the tests were performed on, I find it hard to believe that you could:
1. Increase COAL by .400"
2. Decrease charge by 2.1gr
3. Decrease bullet weight by 13gr
...and be OVER max...
Re: Primer Pin Whole
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldn't get my "Panties in a twist" if most on this site didn't jump to the conclusion that everyone else is a <span style="font-weight: bold">blundering idiot</span>....</div></div>
I feel you.
I guess it's just par for the course, but the instant you post something about a reloaded cartridge failure around here, you get people telling you you're overpressure and a blundering idiot.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldn't get my "Panties in a twist" if most on this site didn't jump to the conclusion that everyone else is a <span style="font-weight: bold">blundering idiot</span>....</div></div>
I feel you.
I guess it's just par for the course, but the instant you post something about a reloaded cartridge failure around here, you get people telling you you're overpressure and a blundering idiot.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Hugo, I guess you, me, and this so called engineer friend you speak of are all Blundering idiots. Want to have a blundering idiot party at my house this year? Once the crops are down we have about 1400 yards to be idiots with. We can shoot our over pressurized loads all day and sit around a fire at night drinking beer with pieces of case and primer buried in our face.
Maybe some reloading drinking games where you have to guess the charge weight in your hand and then fire that load. Just thinking out loud. I mean after all, if there are any issues with a handload, its obviously the fault of the loader because equipment and manufacturing processes could never be at fault.
Sorry everyone, its been a long week and I needed some levity.
Hugo, I guess you, me, and this so called engineer friend you speak of are all Blundering idiots. Want to have a blundering idiot party at my house this year? Once the crops are down we have about 1400 yards to be idiots with. We can shoot our over pressurized loads all day and sit around a fire at night drinking beer with pieces of case and primer buried in our face.
Maybe some reloading drinking games where you have to guess the charge weight in your hand and then fire that load. Just thinking out loud. I mean after all, if there are any issues with a handload, its obviously the fault of the loader because equipment and manufacturing processes could never be at fault.
Sorry everyone, its been a long week and I needed some levity.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hugo, I guess you, me, and this so called engineer friend you speak of are all Blundering idiots. Want to have a blundering idiot party at my house this year? Once the crops are down we have about 1400 yards to be idiots with. We can shoot our over pressurized loads all day and sit around a fire at night drinking beer with pieces of case and primer buried in our face.
Maybe some reloading drinking games where you have to guess the charge weight in your hand and then fire that load. Just thinking out loud. I mean after all, if there are any issues with a handload, its obviously the fault of the loader because equipment and manufacturing processes could never be at fault.
</div></div>
Where in OH are you? I might be enough of a blunderng idiot to come play!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hugo, I guess you, me, and this so called engineer friend you speak of are all Blundering idiots. Want to have a blundering idiot party at my house this year? Once the crops are down we have about 1400 yards to be idiots with. We can shoot our over pressurized loads all day and sit around a fire at night drinking beer with pieces of case and primer buried in our face.
Maybe some reloading drinking games where you have to guess the charge weight in your hand and then fire that load. Just thinking out loud. I mean after all, if there are any issues with a handload, its obviously the fault of the loader because equipment and manufacturing processes could never be at fault.
</div></div>
Where in OH are you? I might be enough of a blunderng idiot to come play!
Re: Primer Pin Whole
Don't tell our engineer friend he's a blundering idiot.... I don't need him to pop a primer....
I'm in on the "Blundering Olympics", safety gear "Optional", of course....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hugo, I guess you, me, and this so called engineer friend you speak of are all Blundering idiots. Want to have a blundering idiot party at my house this year? Once the crops are down we have about 1400 yards to be idiots with. We can shoot our over pressurized loads all day and sit around a fire at night drinking beer with pieces of case and primer buried in our face.
Maybe some reloading drinking games where you have to guess the charge weight in your hand and then fire that load. Just thinking out loud. I mean after all, if there are any issues with a handload, its obviously the fault of the loader because equipment and manufacturing processes could never be at fault.
</div></div>
Don't tell our engineer friend he's a blundering idiot.... I don't need him to pop a primer....
I'm in on the "Blundering Olympics", safety gear "Optional", of course....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hugo, I guess you, me, and this so called engineer friend you speak of are all Blundering idiots. Want to have a blundering idiot party at my house this year? Once the crops are down we have about 1400 yards to be idiots with. We can shoot our over pressurized loads all day and sit around a fire at night drinking beer with pieces of case and primer buried in our face.
Maybe some reloading drinking games where you have to guess the charge weight in your hand and then fire that load. Just thinking out loud. I mean after all, if there are any issues with a handload, its obviously the fault of the loader because equipment and manufacturing processes could never be at fault.
</div></div>
Re: Primer Pin Whole
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't tell our engineer friend he's a blundering idiot.... I don't need him to pop a primer....
I'm in on the "Blundering Olympics", safety gear "Optional", of course....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hugo, I guess you, me, and this so called engineer friend you speak of are all Blundering idiots. Want to have a blundering idiot party at my house this year? Once the crops are down we have about 1400 yards to be idiots with. We can shoot our over pressurized loads all day and sit around a fire at night drinking beer with pieces of case and primer buried in our face.
Maybe some reloading drinking games where you have to guess the charge weight in your hand and then fire that load. Just thinking out loud. I mean after all, if there are any issues with a handload, its obviously the fault of the loader because equipment and manufacturing processes could never be at fault.
</div></div> </div></div>
I pretty much call him an idiot on an almost daily basis to be honest. He threatened to come to Ohio and shoot me to which I replied "Not scared. You seem to forget that movers are more challenging when they are running and calling you derogatory names and flipping the bird. Laughter is harder to overcome than some dude yelling in your ear at a match..Puzzy.."
I win!
Ok, Im out.. back to work.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't tell our engineer friend he's a blundering idiot.... I don't need him to pop a primer....
I'm in on the "Blundering Olympics", safety gear "Optional", of course....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hugo, I guess you, me, and this so called engineer friend you speak of are all Blundering idiots. Want to have a blundering idiot party at my house this year? Once the crops are down we have about 1400 yards to be idiots with. We can shoot our over pressurized loads all day and sit around a fire at night drinking beer with pieces of case and primer buried in our face.
Maybe some reloading drinking games where you have to guess the charge weight in your hand and then fire that load. Just thinking out loud. I mean after all, if there are any issues with a handload, its obviously the fault of the loader because equipment and manufacturing processes could never be at fault.
</div></div> </div></div>
I pretty much call him an idiot on an almost daily basis to be honest. He threatened to come to Ohio and shoot me to which I replied "Not scared. You seem to forget that movers are more challenging when they are running and calling you derogatory names and flipping the bird. Laughter is harder to overcome than some dude yelling in your ear at a match..Puzzy.."
I win!
Ok, Im out.. back to work.
Re: Primer Pin Whole
I can so picture this in my head.... You running, middle finger in the air, zig-zagging, as he shouts profanity while rounds are fragging your feet.... LoL....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't tell our engineer friend he's a blundering idiot.... I don't need him to pop a primer....
I'm in on the "Blundering Olympics", safety gear "Optional", of course....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hugo, I guess you, me, and this so called engineer friend you speak of are all Blundering idiots. Want to have a blundering idiot party at my house this year? Once the crops are down we have about 1400 yards to be idiots with. We can shoot our over pressurized loads all day and sit around a fire at night drinking beer with pieces of case and primer buried in our face.
Maybe some reloading drinking games where you have to guess the charge weight in your hand and then fire that load. Just thinking out loud. I mean after all, if there are any issues with a handload, its obviously the fault of the loader because equipment and manufacturing processes could never be at fault.
</div></div> </div></div>
I pretty much call him an idiot on an almost daily basis to be honest. He threatened to come to Ohio and shoot me to which I replied "Not scared. You seem to forget that movers are more challenging when they are running and calling you derogatory names and flipping the bird. Laughter is harder to overcome than some dude yelling in your ear at a match..Puzzy.."
I win!
Ok, Im out.. back to work. </div></div>
I can so picture this in my head.... You running, middle finger in the air, zig-zagging, as he shouts profanity while rounds are fragging your feet.... LoL....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hugo121175</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't tell our engineer friend he's a blundering idiot.... I don't need him to pop a primer....
I'm in on the "Blundering Olympics", safety gear "Optional", of course....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hugo, I guess you, me, and this so called engineer friend you speak of are all Blundering idiots. Want to have a blundering idiot party at my house this year? Once the crops are down we have about 1400 yards to be idiots with. We can shoot our over pressurized loads all day and sit around a fire at night drinking beer with pieces of case and primer buried in our face.
Maybe some reloading drinking games where you have to guess the charge weight in your hand and then fire that load. Just thinking out loud. I mean after all, if there are any issues with a handload, its obviously the fault of the loader because equipment and manufacturing processes could never be at fault.
</div></div> </div></div>
I pretty much call him an idiot on an almost daily basis to be honest. He threatened to come to Ohio and shoot me to which I replied "Not scared. You seem to forget that movers are more challenging when they are running and calling you derogatory names and flipping the bird. Laughter is harder to overcome than some dude yelling in your ear at a match..Puzzy.."
I win!
Ok, Im out.. back to work. </div></div>
Re: Primer Pin Whole
