Why is it that when talking to several different gunsmiths they all say proof barrels aren't worth thier time? These guys are pretty top tier, not naming anyone just wondering what you guys have to say. I've had several proof barrels in the past and they have all been great
Gunsmithing Proof barrels
- Thread starter Sykes
- Start date
Yea I can understand that
Like I said I've always had good luck with them. Just wondering why these guys have told me this.
"Several"
Earlier this year I screwed an off the shelf Proof carbon barrel onto a brand new AX and this was representative of the groups when I zeroed it (6.5CM)
Not sure about their blanks. But their prefits I've had great results with. Maybe they don't have time for prefits because you can put that shit on at home??
Pretty sure all of mine have been prefits I've screwed on myself
I have a proof carbon in 6.5cm that was chambered/fitted to a Defiance Deviant action by Marc at Spartan Rifles and it is more accurate than I am 
I think some people (match shooters) like the heavier barrels because the additional weight reduces perceived recoil and lets them track their shot more easily.
I think some people (match shooters) like the heavier barrels because the additional weight reduces perceived recoil and lets them track their shot more easily.
Probably not worth their time in the sense that you can buy Proof prefits for less than it costs them to chamber and thread a blank.
I've chambered a lot of them, at least as many as all the other makes I've chambered combined. They have all been at least 1/2 MOA capable in hunting or field match rigs. They wouldn't be my first choice for F-Class mostly because they do not put out a 30" straight 1.25" blank.
The only barrels that are not worth my time is one that fails my initial inspection before machining. I haven't had a Proof, CF or steel, fail inspection.
The only barrels that are not worth my time is one that fails my initial inspection before machining. I haven't had a Proof, CF or steel, fail inspection.
Everyone has their own preference in stuff. Some of those smiths could have a very close relationship with Barltein (or other brand). Some may dislike them for what they do with pre-fits. Some people just love to hate lol. I have had a pretty large sample size of proof barrels over the years and never once had one that didnt shoot amazing (both pre fit and blanks.)
On a counter argument...... some of the top smiths in the country do builds off of proof barrels. I am doubting some of these amazing builders would be risking their reputation with crappy product.
On a counter argument...... some of the top smiths in the country do builds off of proof barrels. I am doubting some of these amazing builders would be risking their reputation with crappy product.
It's a good question. GAP said they wouldn't guarantee a Proof barrel chambering if I used a Proof. Had a Bartlein on hand anyway so didn't matter on the last chamber I had them do. Only heard "consistency issues".
I've got multiple Proof prefits that shoot better than I can so who knows.
I've got multiple Proof prefits that shoot better than I can so who knows.
GAP is a good example of my earlier point. From what I know they work closely with Bartlein and have a very long running relationship with them.... 100% going to chalk that one up entirely to a barrel bias.
All of these are premium barrels and at the end of the day many can shoot better than most are capable of shooting.
My current AW barrel was a Proof Blank that GAP chambered. Probably the best shooting barrel I have ever had.
I have 3 proof pre fits and they all shoot great. Here is a brand new pre fit 223, first 5 rounds down the barrel that I screwed on after taking a dasher barrel off.
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I’ve had probably a dozen Proof barrels over the years, and in my experience, they are 1b to Krieger, Bartlein, etc’s 1a.
And I don’t mean it from a pure Accuracy standpoint. Proofs can be made to shoot equally as well as a Krieger with proper load development, but I can take a Krieger with any combination of quality bullet, brass, and consistent charge weight and probably 90% of them will shoot inside 1/2 right off the bat. No LD.
That number dips down to like 70-75% with a Proof for me. Takes a little more fine tuning to get it there. Again, not to say they shoot bad, just not as well with as little effort.
And I don’t mean it from a pure Accuracy standpoint. Proofs can be made to shoot equally as well as a Krieger with proper load development, but I can take a Krieger with any combination of quality bullet, brass, and consistent charge weight and probably 90% of them will shoot inside 1/2 right off the bat. No LD.
That number dips down to like 70-75% with a Proof for me. Takes a little more fine tuning to get it there. Again, not to say they shoot bad, just not as well with as little effort.
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All of my Proof CF's barrels have been hammers. I've heard rumors of groups opening up and the barrels burning out faster than they should but it hasn't been my experience.
I have a Proof M24 SS barrel in 6.5 CM…not a prefit…and it’s been great. Fast and accurate barrel and I have 2,460 rounds on it and it’s still going strong (haha…though that may end tomorrow, who knows lol).
I will give my experience (and mine alone), at the risk of hurting feelings.
Just the facts......
- Every single barrel I have had returned for "not meeting 1/2" guarantee"......has been a proof carbon. Lots of variables but time is money, so replaced barrels and sent back out. Barrels may or may not have been "bad"......further inspection and rework (in my off time) will tell the truth.
- When I work on a proof (carbon or steel) I can count on trying 3 to 4 bushing sizes to get a great fit. I do not have to do this with any other cut barrel maker that stamps min/max bore sizes on the end of the blank........PERIOD.......I always confirm bushing fitment anyway. But when a Bartlein (for example) says .237"......I know that a .2368 (or very rarely a .2366) will be perfect.
- In my opinion Proof......much like Defiance......has lost a chunk of customer base through poor business decisions.
- I have seen Proof carbons shoot very well.....but in my experience......a straight bore, consistent on target bore dims, and good surface finish lapped Proof carbon is pretty rare. If you play the odds...... you are much more likely to get a great shooting steel barrel from another maker, all else being equal.
Just figure out your priorities. If weight savings and cool-guy looks mean more than uptmost accuracy......go proof carbon. Understand that you are most likely not going to be delivered a 1000yd benchrest winner.
The sad part is, I used to be a big fan of Proof steel barrels......budget friendly......4-groove (which I prefer).....good availability.....good enough quality. But all those positives were overshadowed by Proofs decision to compete with their main customer base......rifle builders......nuff said.
Ern
Just the facts......
- Every single barrel I have had returned for "not meeting 1/2" guarantee"......has been a proof carbon. Lots of variables but time is money, so replaced barrels and sent back out. Barrels may or may not have been "bad"......further inspection and rework (in my off time) will tell the truth.
- When I work on a proof (carbon or steel) I can count on trying 3 to 4 bushing sizes to get a great fit. I do not have to do this with any other cut barrel maker that stamps min/max bore sizes on the end of the blank........PERIOD.......I always confirm bushing fitment anyway. But when a Bartlein (for example) says .237"......I know that a .2368 (or very rarely a .2366) will be perfect.
- In my opinion Proof......much like Defiance......has lost a chunk of customer base through poor business decisions.
- I have seen Proof carbons shoot very well.....but in my experience......a straight bore, consistent on target bore dims, and good surface finish lapped Proof carbon is pretty rare. If you play the odds...... you are much more likely to get a great shooting steel barrel from another maker, all else being equal.
Just figure out your priorities. If weight savings and cool-guy looks mean more than uptmost accuracy......go proof carbon. Understand that you are most likely not going to be delivered a 1000yd benchrest winner.
The sad part is, I used to be a big fan of Proof steel barrels......budget friendly......4-groove (which I prefer).....good availability.....good enough quality. But all those positives were overshadowed by Proofs decision to compete with their main customer base......rifle builders......nuff said.
Ern
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Good to know that others have the same experience.
Went to cerakote a proof prefit this morning for a customer and thought others in this specific conversation will find this interesting.
Pic1 - You can see the wicked burr off the trailing edge of the land.......all lands have this burr......not good.
Pic2 - Clearly the throat is off-center on this 300wm proof prefit.
Pic3 - I like to do a simple visual inspection in the throat area.....simply take a clean new barrel and hold it up to the light and make sure the ending edge of the freebore/throat has a consistent line/edge all the way around. If the edge is heavy on one side and disappears on the opposite side.......it is clearly off-center. In all honesty there are some situations where there will not be an edge......because the bore is large or the freebore diameter on the reamer is very tight......some 223 reamers have this.......but ultimately you are looking for even machining......not really an edge, but a edge is easier to see in the light.
All that being said........this barrel may still shoot well........I am just pointing out the difference in machining/inspection from a mass produced prefit and a true custom shop prefit.
Ern
Pic1 - You can see the wicked burr off the trailing edge of the land.......all lands have this burr......not good.
Pic2 - Clearly the throat is off-center on this 300wm proof prefit.
Pic3 - I like to do a simple visual inspection in the throat area.....simply take a clean new barrel and hold it up to the light and make sure the ending edge of the freebore/throat has a consistent line/edge all the way around. If the edge is heavy on one side and disappears on the opposite side.......it is clearly off-center. In all honesty there are some situations where there will not be an edge......because the bore is large or the freebore diameter on the reamer is very tight......some 223 reamers have this.......but ultimately you are looking for even machining......not really an edge, but a edge is easier to see in the light.
All that being said........this barrel may still shoot well........I am just pointing out the difference in machining/inspection from a mass produced prefit and a true custom shop prefit.
Ern
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Haha. I have called out non-prefits too........even my own work. Don't mistake my knowledge transfer here for "disgruntled competitor shit talking". There have been multiple people in this thread alone that are more than pleased with proof prefits.........cheers to them for finding their satisfaction at the lowest price possible.
I am just trying to answer the original posters question without the industry habit of sucking off a big-time manufacturer and intentionally withholding information to gain some sort of buddy buddy relationship or business edge. If others hold this same value, American manufacturing will lead the way once again.
Ern
Did you ask them why?
I have. Multiple Top smith's have said the same thing. Inconsistent bore size. They refuse to use them becuase they won't warranty something they can't control. It's common knowledge.
You can get a great shooter or a turd. I have both prefits and smith chambered proofs. Would NOT buy a proof prefit again, that's like rolling the dice twice.
Not with bartlien or kreiger or brux to HH and benchmark, if they are properly chambered its all bit guaranteed to hammer. Buying a proof is buying a lottery ticket, vs buying a winner everytime.
It's not a prefit vs traditional chambered issue. Most of the smith's who won't use proof will happily make you a prefit from another manufacturer. Now that we have other options in carbon barrels, there is zero reason to buy proof IMO.
I have. Multiple Top smith's have said the same thing. Inconsistent bore size. They refuse to use them becuase they won't warranty something they can't control. It's common knowledge.
You can get a great shooter or a turd. I have both prefits and smith chambered proofs. Would NOT buy a proof prefit again, that's like rolling the dice twice.
Not with bartlien or kreiger or brux to HH and benchmark, if they are properly chambered its all bit guaranteed to hammer. Buying a proof is buying a lottery ticket, vs buying a winner everytime.
It's not a prefit vs traditional chambered issue. Most of the smith's who won't use proof will happily make you a prefit from another manufacturer. Now that we have other options in carbon barrels, there is zero reason to buy proof IMO.
I am going off my sample size of probably 12 or so proof barrels over the years both prefits and blanks. I havent had the experiences mentioned. All of mine have performed. I will continue to go off my personal data rather than forum opinions.
Definitely have read the same sentences before on the forums "several top smiths said they dont use...." (insert barrel, trigger, action, stocks). I take that with a grain of salt. My rebuttal is always what about the 100's of other great builders that still use that product or my positive experience with the product. Chalk it up to bias and opinions
Side note: If there is one thing I have learned over the years is that not all smiths are built alike. It frightens me to death that there are smiths out there that actually don't shoot the thing they just built.
Definitely have read the same sentences before on the forums "several top smiths said they dont use...." (insert barrel, trigger, action, stocks). I take that with a grain of salt. My rebuttal is always what about the 100's of other great builders that still use that product or my positive experience with the product. Chalk it up to bias and opinions
Side note: If there is one thing I have learned over the years is that not all smiths are built alike. It frightens me to death that there are smiths out there that actually don't shoot the thing they just built.
My intentions were not to cause drama. I too have had 8 or 10 proof barrels, blanks done by gunsmiths and prefits, probaly more prefits than the other. All great shooters. I also recognize there are a ton of smiths out there using proof barrels with great success. That's what why I was curious why I've been told this a handful of times latley, thought maybe I was missing something. Sounds like shit happens like it does everywhere and maybe these guys got 1 bad one and that was enough for them, I don't know. Maybe it's all biased and maybe they just don't wanna go with the big trendy company.
Yeah I know you weren't trying to cause drama. You are spot on with your comment here! My whole thing is that my personal opinion matters more than internet guy claims.
Been a long day
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Wow this went downhill fast..........I value personal EXPERIENCE more than I do personal opinion........but to each his own.
I have answered the original question to the best of my ability.........carry on.
I just hope the owner of the barrel in the pics above doesn't shoot hornady eld-m bullets out of it.......Oops.............topic for another day.......haha.
Ern
I have answered the original question to the best of my ability.........carry on.
I just hope the owner of the barrel in the pics above doesn't shoot hornady eld-m bullets out of it.......Oops......
.......topic for another day.......haha.Ern
Similar sentiments here. I’ve seen a good number of proof barrels both prefit and blank shoot as good and consistent as any other on the market.
That said, I’ve also seen multiple 2MOA+ prefits both rimfire and centerfire, prefits that would drift 6” or more at 100yds once the barrel heated up, and barrels that acted like they were short-chambered/didn’t get a pass with a finish reamer (wouldn’t chamber factory ammo out of the box).
“Your Mileage May Vary” is very much the truth with proof in my dealings.
Absolutely do what works for you, I'm not going to knock you for that. If you like Proof's, run them.
However, your anecdotal experience of a small sample size doesn't discount others experience with the same product.
And yes, gunsmiths seem to all have their biases and preferences for what they like to build with. Some reasons for doing so are better than others. But gunsmiths do seem to like to stick to their preferred products.
I run Bartelien barrels and I was trying to stock up on barrels since they aren't getting any cheaper.
My Gunsmith talked me into getting 2 Proof barrels I wanted Rem Varmint and he gave competition barrels. I couldn't make it shoot my loads.
I backed down on the powder charges and worked my way back up and nothing helped. I loosened and re tightened everything on my Rifle and it didn't help.
I even drug one of my older Rifles our to see if it was me and not the loads.
It wasn't me or the loads.
With the scarcity and the price of reloading stock I wasnt going to chase load development so I had my Smith turn me a Bartelien and everything went back to normal for me.
I gave the second barrel back to my Smith and ask him to get Bartelien for me. I told him I would make up the difference if there was any.
I might try to work it out if the price of reloading comes back to normal.
My Gunsmith talked me into getting 2 Proof barrels I wanted Rem Varmint and he gave competition barrels. I couldn't make it shoot my loads.
I backed down on the powder charges and worked my way back up and nothing helped. I loosened and re tightened everything on my Rifle and it didn't help.
I even drug one of my older Rifles our to see if it was me and not the loads.
It wasn't me or the loads.
With the scarcity and the price of reloading stock I wasnt going to chase load development so I had my Smith turn me a Bartelien and everything went back to normal for me.
I gave the second barrel back to my Smith and ask him to get Bartelien for me. I told him I would make up the difference if there was any.
I might try to work it out if the price of reloading comes back to normal.
A cf barrel is primarily for weight saving. If that's not a concern, there isn't any reason to pay more than all the other non-cf barrels out there that are quite less expensive but will most likely be more durable. Having said that, I'm quite happy with the pre-fit Proof 6.5cm I have on my AI-AX. Haven't had a single issue with it so far.
Wow this went downhill fast..........I value personal EXPERIENCE more than I do personal opinion........but to each his own.
I have answered the original question to the best of my ability.........carry on.
I just hope the owner of the barrel in the pics above doesn't shoot hornady eld-m bullets out of it.......Oops......
Ern
I had a proof cf barrel that shot poorly, replaced with proof steel and no issues. I also was told by another popular gunsmith who does similar volume as you on the other coast of FL that he won’t guarantee any accuracy from proof cf. And now someone saying GAP won’t hold a guaranty. Hmmm. That says it is a reputational issue to gunsmiths who take pride in their work, not pettiness because proof competes with its top customers.
But I’m really curious about the eld-m comment. At a match this last weekend numerous folks were talking about Hornady qc issues with eld-m bullets, concentricity came up several times. Is that what you’re referencing?
I don't want to derail this thread more than it already is. PM me or start a new thread and tag me.
Something has definitely changed. About a month ago I had a Proof carbon blank that had a big slug of epoxy (from the carbon wrap) in the bore at the breech end. Funny thing was the epoxy slug had been 60degree chamfered.....so it was there before turning/grinding to contour.
Proof must have some alien technology because I am still trying to figure out how they air gaged that barrel for final inspection/quality check?......or lapped it in?
Ern
Proof must have some alien technology because I am still trying to figure out how they air gaged that barrel for final inspection/quality check?......or lapped it in?
Ern
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When I had started observing these shit chamber Jobs in my AR barrels I had contacted proof directly and had made contact with the Vice President of Sales, I forget his name I'd have to look in my emails but basically he said that they were expanding their facility and going through a few Growing Pains trying to get everything set up but that was in reference to the delay for the delivery of my barrels not about the quality.
These issues that were Illustrated in the above photos were all carbon fiber wrap barrels my stance on proof products today are their stainless steel AR barrels are still cheap enough to take the gamble on getting a clean barrel with no defects. I will never purchase any PR PreFit Carbon wrap barrels again, the ones that are done correctly make excellent barrels for hunting rifles and rifles with a low round count and slow shooting Cadence. Even my best PRCF barrels (.25-.5 MOA) had horrible muscle memory with cold bore shots they would group tight, but you never quite knew how fat off your Zero and in which direction the group would land.
There are two pieces of advice I give people now is (#1) if you're dead set on purchasing a Proof Barrel go with a stainless steel in calipers .308, 6.5 Grendel, 6ARC and .223 because the contours are heavy and those barrels are outstanding for high round count fire sequences, very rigid eliminating barrel whip and providing excellent Barrel harmonics, just very well balanced. (The SS 6.5CM contour is shit)
(#2) Don't purchase through expert voice because if there's anything unsatisfactory with the barrel you have to deal directly with proof CS which in my personal experience was not pleasant. PR did in the end make it right but I had to bring it to a level that I should never have needed to. Purchase through well-known companies with generous return policies so when you get the barrel home borescope it and check for any defects, that way you can send it back and request a new one or do what you should have done in the first place, spend the extra $100 and have a well established and reputable Barrel Smith turn you a quality Barrel.
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