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Proof of (the obvious) US gun registry.

TurboTrout

Two Star General
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 30, 2020
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East Coast
ATF doing ATF things, silly citizen who didn’t stand up for his rights, but the major thing here is, a video of how a gun registry works, and that whole what registration gets you…armed government troops at your door even when they admit you committed no crime.


 
Not to defend any of that BS, but it's not because of a "registry." FFLs are required to fill out a separate form if a buyer buys multiple guns at one time.
 
He should of asked the agent to get Joe Biden on his cell phone before he released any information. Of course they keep track of your guns the same way the local Police do. They know the last video that you watched when you rubbed one out. Com'on Man.
 
I’m going to go out on a limb and say there is probably a whole lot more to this story. They didn’t randomly show up at this guy’s house like that. They were either investigating him because a gun he owned at one time showed up at a crime, or they were investigating the dealer he was buying them from. You think a crooked dealer never put a buyer down for something they didn’t buy so they could get the gun off the books? Back in my LE days I was assigned to the ATF task force for a little over a year. We didn’t receive random printouts of the multiple purchase forms. Their is not a local registry. I will say that there is “something” somewhere though. You could run a trace and get back some pretty detailed information. I don’t know where it was kept or where the info was collected, but they do have the info. My guess is that it comes from the NICS checks that are supposed to be destroyed. This would explain why they want background checks on private sales. So, yes, I agree there is some kind of registry out there, but that’s not what spurred this case.
 
So I wonder how many NICS checks it takes to start moving up the list?
(asking for a friend) LOL
 
I’m going to go out on a limb and say there is probably a whole lot more to this story. They didn’t randomly show up at this guy’s house like that. They were either investigating him because a gun he owned at one time showed up at a crime, or they were investigating the dealer he was buying them from. You think a crooked dealer never put a buyer down for something they didn’t buy so they could get the gun off the books? Back in my LE days I was assigned to the ATF task force for a little over a year. We didn’t receive random printouts of the multiple purchase forms. Their is not a local registry. I will say that there is “something” somewhere though. You could run a trace and get back some pretty detailed information. I don’t know where it was kept or where the info was collected, but they do have the info. My guess is that it comes from the NICS checks that are supposed to be destroyed. This would explain why they want background checks on private sales. So, yes, I agree there is some kind of registry out there, but that’s not what spurred this case.
Phone in nicss checks don't identify the firearm, just basic type. I have no idea what info they get with elec checks. Supposedly 4473's that have been turned in are being digitized.
 
Phone in nicss checks don't identify the firearm, just basic type. I have no idea what info they get with elec checks. Supposedly 4473's that have been turned in are being digitized.
The info that came back on traces pretty much showed the whole “life” of the firearms. They came back faster than having an FFL who is still in business go check their books. Nobody ever answered me as to how we could get that info so quick.
 
Yes, this is an old issue. In the Clinton days, there was a budget battle about funding placing 4473s in a database. In the mid-2010s, I talked with dealers who said agents requested to make copies of 4473 without specific cause. Today, its the on-line 4473 process which records EVERYTHING, including serial numbers... Then there are state processes, such as the pistol database in WA. Of course, concealed carry records, some of which specify the gun which is authorized to be carried.

Big Brother knows.

"...the ATF has informed Congress that it is currently maintaining a database of 920,664,765 firearm purchase records, including 54-million that were gathered just last year..."

 
After them saying they don’t have a warrant or probable cause, I’d first inform them I’m not going to have my 4th amendment violated

I’d ask then if they would like info on a prohibited possessor and unlawful firearms disposal, Id tell them it was a crackhead names Hunter Biden and send them the link 😂
 
I’m going to go out on a limb and say there is probably a whole lot more to this story. They didn’t randomly show up at this guy’s house like that. They were either investigating him because a gun he owned at one time showed up at a crime, or they were investigating the dealer he was buying them from. You think a crooked dealer never put a buyer down for something they didn’t buy so they could get the gun off the books? Back in my LE days I was assigned to the ATF task force for a little over a year. We didn’t receive random printouts of the multiple purchase forms. Their is not a local registry. I will say that there is “something” somewhere though. You could run a trace and get back some pretty detailed information. I don’t know where it was kept or where the info was collected, but they do have the info. My guess is that it comes from the NICS checks that are supposed to be destroyed. This would explain why they want background checks on private sales. So, yes, I agree there is some kind of registry out there, but that’s not what spurred this case.

May your chains rest lightly
 
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Whatever that means. I’m just putting info out there.

Unless you have further video, all I see are some anti Americans who come to some dudes house and intimidate him into giving up his 4A, they even say he did nothing wrong.

Or is your premise that the gov enforcers would NEVER do something like this? Not sure if you were around over the last 3yrs…covid, no duty to protect, Asli Babbit, etc etc etc.
 
Unless you have further video, all I see are some anti Americans who come to some dudes house and intimidate him into giving up his 4A, they even say he did nothing wrong.
If it went exactly as portrayed, then yes, there is something bad going on and they are trying to violate rights. What I am saying is that I would bet big there is something else going on. Maybe the FFL became suspicious, maybe the FFL was under investigation. There are so many what ifs that are left after seeing the pieces of video, dominated by some dude who thinks straw purchases only happen in the hood. It would be really interesting to get a six month follow up on this to see if anything happens. Like the host said, why were they happy after seeing one gun? Don’t think I am making any excuses for the agents. I am pointing out some things that stand out to anyone who has actually worked a criminal investigation. They don’t have to tell him he has done anything wrong, even if he is the target of an investigation. Having said this, there is always the possibility that things have changed greatly in the years since I was in law enforcement, so maybe they do get these printouts and go out checking on purchases. They would sure have to have more manpower than they did when I was around.
 
Unless you have further video, all I see are some anti Americans who come to some dudes house and intimidate him into giving up his 4A, they even say he did nothing wrong.

The issue is not that they came to his house but rather who sent them and why & where did the ones doing the sending get the information from to decide to target this specific individual and why.

Plenty of us Cassandras have been warning anyone who would listen that the government knows a lot more about your gun purchases than you think.

I'm guessing we might see more of this as the ATF is put under pressure to "go show some results" but of course they can't stop their own planned mass murderers, so they have to go trolling for paperwork violations and see who they can intimidate.
 
The issue is not that they came to his house but rather who sent them and why & where did the ones doing the sending get the information from to decide to target this specific individual and why.

Plenty of us Cassandras have been warning anyone who would listen that the government knows a lot more about your gun purchases than you think.

I'm guessing we might see more of this as the ATF is put under pressure to "go show some results" but of course they can't stop their own planned mass murderers, so they have to go trolling for paperwork violations and see who they can intimidate.

We’ll the 4473 is pretty obvious, sending that info they will keep it based in fhe history of big gov

If it honestly was just for a background check they wouldn’t need any info on the gun, and they wouldn’t need to keep the sheet after you pass
 
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If it went exactly as portrayed, then yes, there is something bad going on and they are trying to violate rights. What I am saying is that I would bet big there is something else going on. Maybe the FFL became suspicious, maybe the FFL was under investigation. There are so many what ifs that are left after seeing the pieces of video, dominated by some dude who thinks straw purchases only happen in the hood. It would be really interesting to get a six month follow up on this to see if anything happens. Like the host said, why were they happy after seeing one gun? Don’t think I am making any excuses for the agents. I am pointing out some things that stand out to anyone who has actually worked a criminal investigation. They don’t have to tell him he has done anything wrong, even if he is the target of an investigation. Having said this, there is always the possibility that things have changed greatly in the years since I was in law enforcement, so maybe they do get these printouts and go out checking on purchases. They would sure have to have more manpower than they did when I was around.

As portrayed? To you think it was CGI or something?

When they showed up, knew what he had, and said he did nothing wrong, still pushed to violate his 4A, that’s a wrap for me
 
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Phone in nicss checks don't identify the firearm, just basic type. I have no idea what info they get with elec checks. Supposedly 4473's that have been turned in are being digitized.
4473's that aren't turned in, but viewed during FFL audits, are also being digitized. IOI's have wireless scanners that can take the form and digitally enter it into a system. This is likely a large reason why they changed the 4473 to show the firearm make/model/SN/Cal and the transferees information on the first page.

Heard that from a little birdie, so do with it what you wish.
 
Terry stops, a.k.a. "Stop & Frisk", are legal if procedure is followed, and they happen to be one of the most effective tactics in disarming VIOLENT OFFENDERS- that's why democrats don't like Terry stops.
 
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Terry stops, a.k.a. "Stop & Frisk", are legal if procedure is followed, and they happen to be one of the most effective tactics in disarming VIOLENT OFFENDERS- that's why democrats don't like Terry stops.

We’ll they arnt legal per the constitution, and I trust violent criminals more than big gov. History has shown the threats each way, I’ll take hoodlums over gov enforcers.
 
4473's that aren't turned in, but viewed during FFL audits, are also being digitized. IOI's have wireless scanners that can take the form and digitally enter it into a system. This is likely a large reason why they changed the 4473 to show the firearm make/model/SN/Cal and the transferees information on the first page.

Heard that from a little birdie, so do with it what you wish.
Yes sir! And it’s been going on for a long long time.
 
If there is a list they (LE) will use it. I had 8 nice FBI agents deliver a package (fishing reel bought off of a forum) last week, wouldn’t say why the package hit. They asked wife if they could open package, saw it was a fishing reel and booted. They sent 8 agents because of the number of guns registered to the address.

Now before the “leave the liberal stronghold” comments I’m doing gods work out here, trying to convert as many people into pro 2A as I can. From taking people shooting I’ve got to be responsible for at least 40 new gun owners and countless guns hitting the island. Plus I like Carmel colored women, hanging out in my underwear in February, and world class fishing 50 yards from my front door. I’ll keep fighting the good fight!!!
 
If there is a list they (LE) will use it. I had 8 nice FBI agents deliver a package (fishing reel bought off of a forum) last week, wouldn’t say why the package hit. They asked wife if they could open package, saw it was a fishing reel and booted. They sent 8 agents because of the number of guns registered to the address.

Now before the “leave the liberal stronghold” comments I’m doing gods work out here, trying to convert as many people into pro 2A as I can. From taking people shooting I’ve got to be responsible for at least 40 new gun owners and countless guns hitting the island. Plus I like Carmel colored women, hanging out in my underwear in February, and world class fishing 50 yards from my front door. I’ll keep fighting the good fight!!!

Why did you open it? I’d have made them work to see my pole, because fuck them
 
Why did you open it? I’d have made them work to see my pole, because fuck them
Wife gave them the OK (I was at work) she was fucking pissed at me because the FBI showed up, lol!!! I was going to give her shit but for whatever reason the seller never put my name on the box, just the address. I thought maybe he was blasting fireworks or guns on the 4th (box was shipped on the 5th) and the dog/scanner pinged it for explosives but according to the seller he doesn’t like things that cool. I don’t know, maybe a Newell 533 fishing reel looks like an auto sear in the X-ray machine?
 
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Delaware is notorious for keeping records on owners. They were caught illegally keeping them before. And now that I look for the story on it, it seems to have been scrubbed. I'll keep looking.
 
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"Do you have the guns with you by chance?"

Do you have a warrant with you by chance?

Mike
Even worse then opening the door is that the homeowner stepped outside.

Always keep a closed door between you and the cops during a conversation or you place yourself at risk of being arrested for arguing with them in public. What is legal inside your home isn't always once you step outside.

A decade or so ago a guy I know had cops stop by his house (for a reason I don't remember) but as he wasn't cooperating with whatever it was, they kept asking him to open the screen door and step outside to make it easier to "talk". He refused, knowing as soon as he did it was cuff's time.

Also notice the implied threat, "we see you were stopped in Philly with one of your guns".
 
I used to have an FFL some time back.... If you bought more than two guns and filled out the 4473's and the multi gun form then the purchaser did everything above board... What's the problem? Unless there is some other history then I'm at a loss..... Other than screwing with him.
 
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First thing to remember is that there are very few ATF agents out there compared to people buying guns. They are not interested in those honest folks with a few firearms, they are only interested in things that really stand out of the norm. They aren't going knocking on doors without some sort of reason.

That said, I work for an FFL, dealt a little with the ATF and can give a little insight on what actually goes on.

FFLs are required, by law, to report to the ATF and to local law enforcement any time an individual purchases more than one handgun at a time, or within five consecutive days. That report is required to be sent to the ATF and local LE before the end of the day. This is supposed to combat firearm trafficking. I don't know what kind of tracking they're doing with it, obviously they're keeping some kind of record or the reports are worthless, but it's not true registration of all firearms. The idea is if you're not repeatedly buying multiple guns of the same kind of gun and they're not showing up in crimes in other states, you should be safe from this report.

We also do traces of firearms regularly. These come to us from the ATF, they are contractors and do not know why they're asking for the traces, nor do we, but we are required to return these within 24 hours. They are requests for the purchasers information, the firearm information and the dates of the sale. These usually are requested due to the firearm showing up at a crime. This can be to try to find out who used it at the crime, but are also used to return stolen firearms to their owners after it is recovered.

These traces originate with the manufacturers, who tell the tracing official where the gun was shipped and through this paper trail will end up asking the FFL for the buyer information.

We also must comply with the ATF when they show up on our doorsteps to do an audit. They will do an official inventory to make sure that there are no missing firearms and that they are all logged into our books correctly. They will look over every 4473 looking for errors, even as minor as a single misspelling or a transposed number in a concealed carry or driver license number. They will cite us for every mistake, no matter how small and if the issues number too much, or too egregious, the FFL can get fined or lose their license.

What they do not do, is scan or create records of these 4473s. They may copy ones that have mistakes or issues on them, but it is to create the report about the FFL, not to keep records of the buyers.

Currently the administration is on a hunt to shut down FFLs, that is their plan of "legal" gun control. If there is no one to sell them, then people can't get them. So the above processes are things that FFLs are complying with in order to stay in business.

The thing is, most of the ATF employees are actually good people and many are on our side. It's unfortunate that the top bosses are the ones that have the agenda and are filtering it down through the ranks who are just doing their jobs. You can argue that they have a choice and are are just "part of the problem" but not everyone can just quit their job due to political reasons.

The ATF does suck and certainly skirt the rules and laws in a lot of ways, but the majority of them are ok people and they do not have tens of thousands of agents that can just knock down any door. They are picking out things that stand out or people that cause them to take notice. There is certainly more to the story above than just a guy buying a few guns and have the ATF show up at his door. One of the things mentioned was he was "stopped in Philly" with one of the guns. This, along with multiple sales could start to raise the flag, such as he's buying then transporting them somewhere. Also could depend on what happened in store, what he might have said and how he acted. We have people that come in and act suspicious all the time. We've turned folks away for suspected straw purchases and we've also report them to local PD after the fact, when there was nothing super obvious enough to stop it, but it smelled really bad.

I know people hate to hear "if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about" and we all know its not always true. But there is a lot of truth to it here. If he indeed had all the guns in question, he would be ok, but I think he obviously did something to attract their attention to begin with.
 
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Currently the administration is on a hunt to shut down FFLs, that is their plan of "legal" gun control. If there is no one to sell them, then people can't get them.
Currently violates the 2nd. SCOTUS would have no choice but to either force the .gov to issue FFLs or make the process not require an FFL.
 
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First thing to remember is that there are very few ATF agents out there compared to people buying guns. They are not interested in those honest folks with a few firearms, they are only interested in things that really stand out of the norm. They aren't going knocking on doors without some sort of reason.

That said, I work for an FFL, dealt a little with the ATF and can give a little insight on what actually goes on.

FFLs are required, by law, to report to the ATF and to local law enforcement any time an individual purchases more than one handgun at a time, or within five consecutive days. That report is required to be sent to the ATF and local LE before the end of the day. This is supposed to combat firearm trafficking. I don't know what kind of tracking they're doing with it, obviously they're keeping some kind of record or the reports are worthless, but it's not true registration of all firearms. The idea is if you're not repeatedly buying multiple guns of the same kind of gun and they're not showing up in crimes in other states, you should be safe from this report.

We also do traces of firearms regularly. These come to us from the ATF, they are contractors and do not know why they're asking for the traces, nor do we, but we are required to return these within 24 hours. They are requests for the purchasers information, the firearm information and the dates of the sale. These usually are requested due to the firearm showing up at a crime. This can be to try to find out who used it at the crime, but are also used to return stolen firearms to their owners after it is recovered.

These traces originate with the manufacturers, who tell the tracing official where the gun was shipped and through this paper trail will end up asking the FFL for the buyer information.

We also must comply with the ATF when they show up on our doorsteps to do an audit. They will do an official inventory to make sure that there are no missing firearms and that they are all logged into our books correctly. They will look over every 4473 looking for errors, even as minor as a single misspelling or a transposed number in a concealed carry or driver license number. They will cite us for every mistake, no matter how small and if the issues number too much, or too egregious, the FFL can get fined or lose their license.

What they do not do, is scan or create records of these 4473s. They may copy ones that have mistakes or issues on them, but it is to create the report about the FFL, not to keep records of the buyers.

Currently the administration is on a hunt to shut down FFLs, that is their plan of "legal" gun control. If there is no one to sell them, then people can't get them. So the above processes are things that FFLs are complying with in order to stay in business.

The thing is, most of the ATF employees are actually good people and many are on our side. It's unfortunate that the top bosses are the ones that have the agenda and are filtering it down through the ranks who are just doing their jobs. You can argue that they have a choice and are are just "part of the problem" but not everyone can just quit their job due to political reasons.

The ATF does suck and certainly skirt the rules and laws in a lot of ways, but the majority of them are ok people and they do not have tens of thousands of agents that can just knock down any door. They are picking out things that stand out or people that cause them to take notice. There is certainly more to the story above than just a guy buying a few guns and have the ATF show up at his door.
ANYONE that joins the ATF in this day and age KNOWS they will be violating the Constitution.

They are ALL the enemy, not just the higher ups.
 
First thing to remember is that there are very few ATF agents out there compared to people buying guns. They are not interested in those honest folks with a few firearms, they are only interested in things that really stand out of the norm. They aren't going knocking on doors without some sort of reason.

That said, I work for an FFL, dealt a little with the ATF and can give a little insight on what actually goes on.

FFLs are required, by law, to report to the ATF and to local law enforcement any time an individual purchases more than one handgun at a time, or within five consecutive days. That report is required to be sent to the ATF and local LE before the end of the day. This is supposed to combat firearm trafficking. I don't know what kind of tracking they're doing with it, obviously they're keeping some kind of record or the reports are worthless, but it's not true registration of all firearms. The idea is if you're not repeatedly buying multiple guns of the same kind of gun and they're not showing up in crimes in other states, you should be safe from this report.

We also do traces of firearms regularly. These come to us from the ATF, they are contractors and do not know why they're asking for the traces, nor do we, but we are required to return these within 24 hours. They are requests for the purchasers information, the firearm information and the dates of the sale. These usually are requested due to the firearm showing up at a crime. This can be to try to find out who used it at the crime, but are also used to return stolen firearms to their owners after it is recovered.

These traces originate with the manufacturers, who tell the tracing official where the gun was shipped and through this paper trail will end up asking the FFL for the buyer information.

We also must comply with the ATF when they show up on our doorsteps to do an audit. They will do an official inventory to make sure that there are no missing firearms and that they are all logged into our books correctly. They will look over every 4473 looking for errors, even as minor as a single misspelling or a transposed number in a concealed carry or driver license number. They will cite us for every mistake, no matter how small and if the issues number too much, or too egregious, the FFL can get fined or lose their license.

What they do not do, is scan or create records of these 4473s. They may copy ones that have mistakes or issues on them, but it is to create the report about the FFL, not to keep records of the buyers.

Currently the administration is on a hunt to shut down FFLs, that is their plan of "legal" gun control. If there is no one to sell them, then people can't get them. So the above processes are things that FFLs are complying with in order to stay in business.

The thing is, most of the ATF employees are actually good people and many are on our side. It's unfortunate that the top bosses are the ones that have the agenda and are filtering it down through the ranks who are just doing their jobs. You can argue that they have a choice and are are just "part of the problem" but not everyone can just quit their job due to political reasons.

The ATF does suck and certainly skirt the rules and laws in a lot of ways, but the majority of them are ok people and they do not have tens of thousands of agents that can just knock down any door. They are picking out things that stand out or people that cause them to take notice. There is certainly more to the story above than just a guy buying a few guns and have the ATF show up at his door.

So sending a record of what I lawfully bought to the ATF and the cop shop isn’t a registry how? Did they pinkey swear to delete it after they fucked the guys 4A/5A/2A throughly enough?
 
I like the idea of calling the local police to say there is a man with a gun at my door demanding to come in.....

someone did that and the local fuzz arrested the ATF man in the street like a common criminal. there was much crying, wailing and gnashing of teeth by the Fed guy but he was trying to be billy badass and the locals were having none of it.
 
If there is a list they (LE) will use it. I had 8 nice FBI agents deliver a package (fishing reel bought off of a forum) last week, wouldn’t say why the package hit. They asked wife if they could open package, saw it was a fishing reel and booted. They sent 8 agents because of the number of guns registered to the address.

Now before the “leave the liberal stronghold” comments I’m doing gods work out here, trying to convert as many people into pro 2A as I can. From taking people shooting I’ve got to be responsible for at least 40 new gun owners and countless guns hitting the island. Plus I like Carmel colored women, hanging out in my underwear in February, and world class fishing 50 yards from my front door. I’ll keep fighting the good fight!!!
As long as you're teaching hunting rifle, handgun and shotgun classes cool. But semiauto will be rare in the future. In just the last few months, the Internal Revenue Service has bought almost 5,000,000 rounds of small arms ammunition — spending almost $700,000 in the process. By the end of 2017, the IRS already had around 4,487 guns and 5,062,006 rounds of ammunition. This isnt done for nothing. Theyre going to heavily dent ammunition sales to the point itll be difficult to get ammo for all the 300-500million guns in this country.

 
As long as you're teaching hunting rifle, handgun and shotgun classes cool. But semiauto will be rare in the future. In just the last few months, the Internal Revenue Service has bought almost 5,000,000 rounds of small arms ammunition — spending almost $700,000 in the process. By the end of 2017, the IRS already had around 4,487 guns and 5,062,006 rounds of ammunition. This isnt done for nothing. Theyre going to heavily dent ammunition sales to the point itll be difficult to get ammo for all the 300-500million guns in this country.


in reference to what I highlighted, no they are not. they would literally have to buy up Billions of rounds to do that.

domestic US ammo production is 9-10 BILLION rounds a year, 5 million rounds is roughly 55 pallets and equal to half of one tenth of a percent of the yearly production of US ammo. thats 0.05%
 
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As long as you're teaching hunting rifle, handgun and shotgun classes cool. But semiauto will be rare in the future. In just the last few months, the Internal Revenue Service has bought almost 5,000,000 rounds of small arms ammunition — spending almost $700,000 in the process. By the end of 2017, the IRS already had around 4,487 guns and 5,062,006 rounds of ammunition. This isnt done for nothing. Theyre going to heavily dent ammunition sales to the point itll be difficult to get ammo for all the 300-500million guns in this country.


Shit! Where are they getting 9/223/40/etc for 14 cents a round?! Is this still available?
 
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5 million rounds is not that much. I'm pretty sure there are members here with 20K or more rounds.

The good news is the list is a very long one and would take "too long" for an organization to filter through.