pros and cons of full length hand guard on AR

[corey4]

i am thinking about another AR.

what would be the pros and cons of the full length to the muzzle hand guard?

intended purpose will be for just plain ol' fun for the most part. i wont be "dressing it up" with a bunch of stuff.

it will have flip up back up sights, vortex viper 1-4 scope, some type of hand stop grip thingy. oh yeah, a can too.

shorter rail
https://danieldefense.com/firearms/mid-length/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v5.html

to the muzzle
https://danieldefense.com/firearms/mid-length/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v9.html

the pros i can see are the hot ass barrel will be covered, so less chance of burning someone or thing. more surface area to rest the rifle during odd firing positions in a class, longer sight radius if i choose to run the iron sights.

cons, it looks stupid! lol



edited for thread title change.

 

[Guest]

I love my Troy Alpha rail. Feels great in my hand when grabbing it and allows me to hold closer to the muzzke for quick accurate snap shots at cqb distances. Its also light as a feather.

 

[jasonfaz]

Only negative to the longer set up that i see is weight, but that difference will be negligible. I happen to prefer how the longer handguards look compared to the shorter handguards. Outside of the benefits you already mentioned, and depending on your grip preference, there is the benefit of your support hand being placed further out towards the muzzle - in theory, giving you more control over speed and consistency relative to the lateral movement of your rifle from target to target. This has proven to be a legitimate benefit of a longer handguard for me.

If you're shooting with a can, i think the monolithic look of a longer rail running into the 1.5"-1.7" OD of your suppressor looks dramatically better than the massive gap left with a shorter handguard. But again, thats all personal preference and aesthetics. I'd vote for the longer version but not necessarily for something that has quad rails running down all sides. Thats so 2004 brutha!

 

[jasonfaz]

Those new grips from DD though are this shiznit. Fit my hand perfectly. Buy one of those and then hit up BCM, KAC, or Arsenal Democracy for the handguard...

 

[502Chevelle]

If you don't have a true need for a quad rail, why mount a big cheese grater on your rifle. JP and PRI make awesome for ends that will be much nicer. I don't get the obsession with quads.

 

[vincent317]

Keymod rails might be a good option, too.

 

[elfster1234]

hehe, sorry... I couldn't help myself:
Grater tips: 4 secret uses for your kitchen grater | Herbalife Advice - YouTube

i am thinking about another AR.

what would be the pros and cons of the full length to the muzzle rail?

intended purpose will be for just plain ol' fun for the most part. i wont be "dressing it up" with a bunch of stuff.

it will have flip up back up sights, vortex viper 1-4 scope, some type of hand stop grip thingy. oh yeah, a can too.

shorter rail
https://danieldefense.com/firearms/mid-length/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v5.html

to the muzzle
https://danieldefense.com/firearms/mid-length/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v9.html

the pros i can see are the hot ass barrel will be covered, so less chance of burning someone or thing. more surface area to rest the rifle during odd firing positions in a class, longer sight radius if i choose to run the iron sights.

cons, it looks stupid! lol

 

[jasonfaz]

Quad rails.....

 

[corey4]

haha, good one jason and elfster. maybe i should have titled the thread for full length hand guards, not necessarily quad rails.

i don't have an obsession with quad rails. i thought they were always dumb, but i have a DD MK18 SBR with the quad rail, and it isn't too bad.

i looked at the keymod rails as well. those are an option too.
https://danieldefense.com/firearms/mid-length/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v11.html

how would you mount a bipod or the hand stop to a keymod rail? do i purchase a short length of pic rail, mount that to the hand guard, then mount up the gadget?

 

[Regalkismet]

There isn't anything wrong with quad rails....especially if you change your configuration regularly and most of your gear mounts via a qd mount for a pictinny rail....in fact it can make a lot of sense in many situations. I hardly think the preference of someone's hand guard makes them operator as f$% k....actually the same could be said of someone who jumps on the latest hand guard fad just cause it looks cool.....personally I like my rifles not only functional but to look good too and generally use quadrails with XT enhanced rail covers or ladder rails...used them for so long it simply feels right and allows me to quickly change my configurations....

 

[Matno]

My vote is for a longer hand guard with the narrowest diameter possible. I love the Midwest industries for that reason. The smooth, skinny grip is easier for me to control, and there's enough room for an extended hold AND a small rail for a bipod. I used to think shorter rails looked better, but I've come around. (Now a short hand guard with a long barrel just says "budget rifle" to me).

I still have a quad rail on my AR-10 (looking for a stupid wrench to replace it), and with rail covers, that thing is HUGE. Nearly twice the diameter of my MI.

 

[Jig Stick]

Something that I have learned humping my bolt rifles through the mountains is that a heavy gun sucks. I would make a list of the scenarios that you intend to use the gun for, and choose the minimum rail length to get the job done. I would try to keep the weight to a minimum. Personally, I would rather have a heavier barrel and a lighter rail system than vice versa

 

[samnev]

It sounds like you really don't like the look of the long hand guard. I know that when I don't like the look of something on my rifles it grates on me and I end up changing it. If you don't have a real need not a theoretical one like possibly burning someone or something I stay with the shorter hand guard. It's personal decision only you can make.

 

[jasonfaz]

haha, good one jason and elfster. maybe i should have titled the thread for full length hand guards, not necessarily quad rails.

i don't have an obsession with quad rails. i thought they were always dumb, but i have a DD MK18 SBR with the quad rail, and it isn't too bad.

i looked at the keymod rails as well. those are an option too.
https://danieldefense.com/firearms/mid-length/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v11.html

how would you mount a bipod or the hand stop to a keymod rail? do i purchase a short length of pic rail, mount that to the hand guard, then mount up the gadget?

Nah im just playin, quad rails - especially the DDs - are some of the best kits out there. The RIS is a legit set up for sure.

As it relates to mounting a handstop or vfg to a keymod handguard, you could certainly place a small rail section where you want your grip located and do it that way, or you can use one of the direct attach options. There are VFGs from Unity, Samson MFG, Fortis, BCM, etc. Or handstops from a bunch of the same MFGers and others that directly attach to the rail. No need for additional picatinny rails. There are a bunch of bipod adapters that allow you do the same thing when mounting a bipod. If you like running a light in a 45 degree offset, the 7-sided keymod handguards like the URX4 and KMR allow you to mount that light without needing an offset mount. Just throw it on and off as needed.

Matno, i hear you on those 308 rails. Most of them have huge ODs. That Midwest is promising with a 1.5" ID and 1.75" OD. The Fortis Switch is nice and slim also.

 

[rjacobs]

I love long hand guards. I dislike the quad rail on my DDM4, but that gun will never get swapped around because of what it is(sub serial 1000 off the line, button rifled, roll marked Savannah, GA vs. Black Creek, so in the grand scheme of DD rifles, a little bit rare). And it was my first AR in 2008.

I love my 15" Giessele Mk4, I love the long BCM KMR, I love the long Noveske NSR, I played with a long Centurion CMR yesterday and it was pretty slick. I played with the new MI stuff and I didnt care for the barrel nut attachment and have read a lot of stuff about them coming apart, even when verified they were installed correctly. There are a few long hand guards out there that I would like to mess with, but I have direct experience with the above 6 and I wont look anywhere else but Giessele, BCM and Noveske in the future.

If you want to run a vertical grip, there are a few keymod vertical grips out now, otherwise you need a section of rail(not a huge deal). After running a few of the smaller diameter keymod style hand guards(BCM and Noveske), I completely have gone away from feeling that the Magpul AFG is even a player anymore. I personally prefer to just wrap my hand around the hand guard. Other people might not feel that way, but I have personally changed my way of thinking. On a quad rail, the AFG is still a player(I run one on my DDM4), but on a long, thin, non-railed handguard, I prefer without the AFG.

 

[toyotatrdt]

handguard setup

Heres how we set ours up with the handguards, we found that if you stay about a inch back from the shoulder where the barrel is threaded it helps with blowback through the handguard if you would put some kind of compensator on.

 

[Birddog6424]

For 3 gun and fast target transition, 15" hand guards are the bomb.

And with modern machining and materials, weight is not an issue. Odin Works makes a fantastic 15.5" key mod rail that comes in at a whopping 8.7 ounces. You would be hard put to find anything as light and strong in another rail.

I run the JP 15.5" on my 3 gun rifle. It has multiple advantages in run and gun dynamic shooting scenarios over 12" or shorter rails. Most notably, as mentioned above, better control on fast target transitions. Better muzzle/recoil mitigation with a long thumb over bore grip. More hand guard to place on barriers and awkward supported firing positions so you avoid resting your barrel on a position (this happens all the time with short hand guards).

Weight difference between a 12" and a 15" on a quality rail is pretty minimal in contrast to the benefits of having the longer rail.

 

[animalmother85]

I always try to go full length when I can, unless I have a can that won't fit beneath the rail or if the can overlaps the barrel.



A full length rail doesn't add that ,much weight. The barrel contour is what you'll feel.

With that being said, not every rifle I have has full length rails.

 

[RyanScott]

There is a point of diminishing returns after which you don't move your hand forward. I buy 12-13" rails because I don't grip the rail out farther than that. Find what that is for you and get a rail that long. A skinny one is usually best as they are dramatically lighter.

 

[RyanScott]

A full length rail doesn't add that ,much weight. The barrel contour is what you'll feel.

Disagree. Rail you aren't using is dead weight, at .5-1oz per inch. And since it's at the end of the rifle it matters dramatically more than if it is at the center of the rifle.

 

[355sigfan]

Longer the better especially for real world shooting on and around barricades. More rail means your less likely to support the rifle on the barrel which affects your pony of impact. That is why you see long rails popular in three gun.


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[animalmother85]

Disagree. Rail you aren't using is dead weight, at .5-1oz per inch. And since it's at the end of the rifle it matters dramatically more than if it is at the center of the rifle.

So you're saying that you'll feel a lighter rail over a heavier barrel when it comes to how the rifle feels when shouldered?

I get the whole 'ounces = pounds, pounds = pain' adage, but this isn't exactly equal. The black rifle shown is a lightweight midlength DD 14.5" barrel with a giessele rail. It balances very well and feels very light, as opposed to my 16.1" noveske recon barreled Vltor VIS-3-AK/Mega Arms rifle with a 12" rail and a 16.1" barrel. Again, it's the heavier barrel that you feel.

 

[Birddog6424]

Unless it's some sort of big clunky rail, I seriously doubt you will notice a weight difference between 12 and 15".

Depending on barrel type, you need a longer handguard. Both my 3 gun rifles have 18" barrels with rifle length gas systems. A 12" handguard won't cover the gas block.

And I grip the handguard pretty much near the end. My index finger points straight ahead in the last groove on my JP rail.

 

[RyanScott]

So you're saying that you'll feel a lighter rail over a heavier barrel when it comes to how the rifle feels when shouldered?

I get the whole 'ounces = pounds, pounds = pain' adage, but this isn't exactly equal. The black rifle shown is a lightweight midlength DD 14.5" barrel with a giessele rail. It balances very well and feels very light, as opposed to my 16.1" noveske recon barreled Vltor VIS-3-AK/Mega Arms rifle with a 12" rail and a 16.1" barrel. Again, it's the heavier barrel that you feel.

I'm saying that weight forward of your hand matters a lot more than weight behind your hand and don't get more handguard than you are going to use.

And I do use heavier barrels and lighter handguards. Current project is an 18" Noveske barrel with a Geissele Mk4 rail. Because heavier barrels have advantages and heavier rails are just heavy.

 

[355sigfan]

I'm saying that weight forward of your hand matters a lot more than weight behind your hand and don't get more handguard than you are going to use.

And I do use heavier barrels and lighter handguards. Current project is an 18" Noveske barrel with a Geissele Mk4 rail. Because heavier barrels have advantages and heavier rails are just heavy.

I say don't have any barrel hanging out of the hand guard other than the muzzle device. I want the bi pod attachment in front of my hand as well as lights and other gear you might want. Also it keeps you from resting your barrel on cover vs the free floated hand guard. There is a reason that longer hand guards have taken over. They perform better in the field.

 

[MistWolf]

The pros of longer free float handguards-
-More of the rifle can be kept behind cover when using cover as a rest
-Protects more of the barrel
-Better protection to the shooter when barrel is hot
-Lets shooter stretch out further if needed

Cons-
-More weight
-Longer handguards can cost more

Bottom line: The downsides to longer handguards are very minor. If you want a full length handguard, get it

 

[shooterfpga]

I just switched from a carbine length kac rail to an alg defense 13" rail. Its absolutely awesome and weighs less than that hunk i had on it. I also purchased it new for a mere $113 shipped. Came with three rail sections as well.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Shooting clean, a long hand guard will permit a lower prone position with sling support. This contributes to stability, less wobble, and therefore better hits. I'm not interested in what the gun looks like, only that the ergonomics complement the elements and factors of a steady position. For any mechanical mod weigh the real benefits and consequences of the enhancement. Some performance furniture that novice shooters like seems to me to undermine a stable position, as well as trigger control. Does not matter though if all it's about is a cool looking gun.

 

[corey4]

thank you for all of the replies and input. everything has been taken into consideration. i am sure someone else has been following and made a decision as well.

i am trying to decide on the full length quad rail or the keymod. either one is going to be a daniel defense. there is only a 4oz difference according to a thread from a guy on m4carbine that has both and weighed them, with the quad rail being the heavier. 4ozs.......big deal. the keymods do look better, but that is just more shit to buy (the keymod pic rails). right now, i only plan to run an AFG, vortex scope, and BUIS. fuck it, maybe a bipod too to be extra cool at the range, haha. also in the future i might run a light. case in point, one of my local clubs has a "zombie shoot" every november. they run the courses of fire at night, with no ambient lighting; just weapon mounted lights on carbine or pistol, lasers, or hand held lights if you choose to go pistol instead of carbine.

with the quad rail, i have no extra shit to buy to mount goodies. plus i don't have to worry about getting the proper length keymod rail so i don't run too short or too long. with a quad rail, just mount and go.

quad rail
https://danieldefense.com/firearms/mid-length/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v9.html

keymod
https://danieldefense.com/firearms/mid-length/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v11.html

i really want the m4a1. not sure why. it is almost a full length quad rail.
https://danieldefense.com/firearms/carbine-length/daniel-defense-m4a1-mil-spec.html

 

[damoncali]

I like a long hand guard because it allows for more flexibility when shooting slug. The only downside, other than a little more weight, is that it makes it hard to grab the barrel when you need to install/remove a brake, etc. if you get too close to the muzzle. You have to take off the guard to get the barrel in a vise.

 

[RyanScott]

I say don't have any barrel hanging out of the hand guard other than the muzzle device. I want the bi pod attachment in front of my hand as well as lights and other gear you might want. Also it keeps you from resting your barrel on cover vs the free floated hand guard. There is a reason that longer hand guards have taken over. They perform better in the field.

I'm not saying that long handguards are bad. Mine are 11-13" because that's all I need to mount things on and still get my hands out there. That's despite my six foot wingspan. Obviously an 18-20" rail might work for you, if your arms are that long go for it.

 

[355sigfan]

I'm not saying that long handguards are bad. Mine are 11-13" because that's all I need to mount things on and still get my hands out there. That's despite my six foot wingspan. Obviously an 18-20" rail might work for you, if your arms are that long go for it.

What I am saying is there are advantages besides just being able to grab the rifle further out. I have listed those.

 

[MistWolf]

4ozs.......big deal

4 oz is a quarter of a pound and it is a big deal. I removed a 4 oz gas block and a 4 oz muzzle device from the M&P-10 and replaced them with lighter units, saving close to 6 oz.

Ounces do add up

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

Another benefit of a rifle length rail is it allows for a longer sight radius; and thus, since this is an angular concept, a better understanding for sight alignment perfection. In addition, the longer radius, when coupled with a small aperture, makes maintaining focus on the front sight easier, as well as allowing for highly defined target without eye strain. In other words, the longer hand guard keeps the target from becoming a distraction with a shooter who may have trouble pulling focus from the target to the front sight after putting together a sight picture. This is especially appealing to a far sighted shooter. Also, the longer sight radius will produce a finer sight adjustment increment to produce a better battle sight zero.

At any rate, as I said in an earlier post, look at benefits which have some meaning to your application. Certainly the primary benefits provided in a longer hand guard are better sight alignment and support, which out weigh, forgive the pun, such a hand guard's additional weight. What's more meaningful or useful, a weight reduction or being able to properly point the rifle with consistent sight alignment? Does higher weight have a consequence to success? Think about all of this as related to getting results and you will see that some of the responses here to your inquiry are imagined improvements from folks who have no understanding for anything important to good shooting. Bottom-line, ask yourself, will this or that performance enhancement actually enhance what it is you are looking to enhance? It could be that just learning how to manipulate the stock M4 or M16A4 is all you need to do.