PSA for those of you 'gearing up' for your daily carry stuff

Mike_Honcho

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IMHO that grey area exists for a reason and is different for every person and every situation. Adding non lethal and thinking it allows them to push further into the grey probably gets one into more trouble faster than it should.

Grey area is probably best covered by being 15% body fat or less, having thrown hands and rolled a bunch of times, having a sense of humor and a strong ability to communicate.

I could be wrong.
 

LawnMM

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You're saying using a firearm to shoot them would be justified? This example is where I'm hung up on that it wouldn't as neither are armed.
This is my opinion only, not a lawyer or a judge, and I don't speak for anyone or any organization I may or may not work for:

Having said that, off duty two thugs try to jump me together I'm going to plug them both.

The legal concept is disparity of force. Maybe it's just one on one? Does that mean you can't shoot him? I dunno.

Can you articulate he was 4" and 60lbs bigger than you? What if he's the same size but you're 63 and he's 23? No such thing as fair.

The trick to keeping yourself on the right side of the law is having a damn good reason and explaining the fuck out of it, with your attorney guiding you.

I'd be shocked at a self defense shooting against two attackers, armed or not, resulting in charges for the shooter.

Unless you're some dumb shit mall ninja and tell them during the interview you've been training to be an assassin since you finished the Vince Flynn novels and this was the chance you were waiting for.

But again, not getting jumped at all is better than explaining why you had to shoot a couple wannabe robbers.
 

Mike_Honcho

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This is my opinion only, not a lawyer or a judge, and I don't speak for anyone or any organization I may or may not work for:

Having said that, off duty two thugs try to jump me together I'm going to plug them both.

The legal concept is disparity of force. Maybe it's just one on one? Does that mean you can't shoot him? I dunno.

Can you articulate he was 4" and 60lbs bigger than you? What if he's the same size but you're 63 and he's 23? No such thing as fair.

The trick to keeping yourself on the right side of the law is having a damn good reason and explaining the fuck out of it, with your attorney guiding you.

I'd be shocked at a self defense shooting against two attackers, armed or not, resulting in charges for the shooter.

Unless you're some dumb shit mall ninja and tell them during the interview you've been training to be an assassin since you finished the Vince Flynn novels and this was the chance you were waiting for.

But again, not getting jumped at all is better than explaining why you had to shoot a couple wannabe robbers.
100%
 
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W54/XM-388

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I'll need to get some legal clarification, but if I'm not mistaken it's still illegal to carry those batons and expandable batons in Texas.
You can carry guns and knives, but not batons and clubs.

While the chances of getting tossed are minimal, I tend to try to make sure everything I have on me and in the car (and for that matter in the house) is fully legal with state and federal law because the politicians seem to have this hard on for sending the Police to go rough up the decent law abiding citizens while doing nothing to the criminal types....
 
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SilentStalkr

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I never thought much of them more than them being a solid stick.

Then I saw a guy hit someone that was 1.5 times his size with one in the knee/shin area from the side and holy shit.

Why are you getting hit with batons?
Well, one night me and the wife were banging, all was going good until I slipped out of one hole and into another and she wasn’t prepared. Baton was nearby and well the rest is history. All kidding aside, I had a karate instructor back in the day that was a “real” teacher and he taught all kinds of weapons. He wanted us to know what they felt like so we’d know what we were up against and exactly why you want to make damn sure you dont get hit with one. Used right they can instantly incapacitate someone. It ain’t like people see in the movies. That shit is dense as fuck. Keep in mind this wasn’t a full force swing either. But I can tell you with certainty, a full force hit on the side of the knee, across the face, forearm or the shin is going to be bad news for anyone on the receiving end.
 
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clcustom1911

"Cartman 1-2, come in"
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Well, one night me and the wife were banging, all was going good until I slipped out of one hole and into another and she wasn’t prepared. Baton was nearby and well the rest is history. All kidding aside, I had a karate instructor back in the day that was a “real” teacher and he taught all kinds of weapons. He wanted us to know what they felt like so we’d know what we were up against and exactly why you want to make damn sure you dont get hit with one. Used right they can instantly incapacitate someone. It ain’t like people see in the movies. That shit is dense as fuck. Keep in mind this wasn’t a full force swing either. But I can tell you with certainty, a full force hit on the side of the knee, across the face, forearm or the shin is going to be bad news for anyone on the receiving end.
1000321-552x552.jpg
 

quietmike

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After carrying an ASP for several years as a deputy and using it a few times, I'll take a hard pass on collapsible batons.
I'd much rather have a Bucheimer Convoy or Texan.
Luckily, Tennessee law says any item designed to inflict serious bodily harm or death by striking is a club, and makes no special distinctions for saps or blackjacks.
 
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army_eod

Retired Army
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I don’t know how to use a baton. I’m just shooting. It’s me or them. Fuck the legal stuff.
 

clcustom1911

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You gotta give something to get something.

Distance is generally your friend. Unfortunately, most fights end up in a "clinch" type situation.

Screenshot_20200715-212646_Photos.jpg

Screenshot_20200715-212415_Chrome.jpg

The Gonzalez 415 Sap is the equalizer. When you're in close, there is no substitute for a lead bar encased in cowhide. Kinetic energy is your friend.

Kids check your laws.

GOD BLESS TEXAS.
 

Jscb1b

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You gotta give something to get something.

Distance is generally your friend. Unfortunately, most fights end up in a "clinch" type situation.

View attachment 7375442

View attachment 7375443

The Gonzalez 415 Sap is the equalizer. When you're in close, there is no substitute for a lead bar encased in cowhide. Kinetic energy is your friend.

Kids check your laws.

GOD BLESS TEXAS.
I'll check it out, thanks.
 
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schmi015

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Last edited:
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Travclem

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I'll need to get some legal clarification, but if I'm not mistaken it's still illegal to carry those batons and expandable batons in Texas.
You can carry guns and knives, but not batons and clubs.

While the chances of getting tossed are minimal, I tend to try to make sure everything I have on me and in the car (and for that matter in the house) is fully legal with state and federal law because the politicians seem to have this hard on for sending the Police to go rough up the decent law abiding citizens while doing nothing to the criminal types....
As of 9/1/2019 ASPs are good to go, as are knuckles, clubs, saps, blackjacks, tomahawks, etc.
 

E. Bryant

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im aware of the charts and locations. All I can say is, whoever made the charts has never been cracked full swing across the shin with one. Now keep in mind not all batons are made equal. I’d have rather been hit with an aluminum bat than this thing. Done right it will put someone down.
The chart is not saying that it doesn't hurt to get hit in the green areas; it's just unlikely to cause long-lasting damage (a broken tib/fib from an impact might put you down for several weeks but probably won't have any long-lasting effects). Combined with some evidence of training, it might help if one ends up in court facing "deadly assault" charges for whacking someone across the leg or forearm.

I don't understand the "if I'm in that situation, I'll just pull my gun" position. There are a wide range of situations - pretty much infinite, in fact - and therefore it'd be good to have a range of tools to deal with those intermediate threats that maybe don't quite rise to the level of necessitating deadly force.

Unfortunately, it's a moot point for me, as my state's laws are constructed to shut down possession and use of a wide range of non-lethal tools (even for those who have a concealed pistol permit).
 

CavScout85

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Here's the thing, yes, disparity of force is well established in the courts, but, the bar can be pretty high here.

Good read:


Ayoob:[laughing] Uh huh! Gila, whenever I hear someone say, “A good shoot is a good shoot,” I want to say back to them, “Yeah, and next Easter a bunny is coming to your house to bring you eggs.”

I coming down on the side of the German on this one. There seem to be so many instances today in these riots, protests, and BLM violence that may or may not meet the requirement of deadly force, and I for one am not getting in a fistfight with someone. I want options in the continuum of force that I can use short of deadly force to make sure the fight is as weighted in my favor as possible, 'fair' fights are for suckers.

Now, it depends on your states laws what those 'options' are. It may be a baton, it may not. Like above, NC limits the non-lethal tools I can carry. It maybe that I have to decide which I would rather do, explain to a jury why I busted a guy up with a baton, or shot him repeatedly in the face. If you are a fit average size male, your ability to explain why you shot a guy in the face because you feared for your life is is probably going to be a tough sell.
 
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Arc Light

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I've got three collapsible batons that I bought years ago when I was trying to find that "perfect" non-lethal solution. The three are different brands (ASP, Monadnock, S&W), and different lengths. I found that for us civilians they are not exactly easy to conceal, not easy to deploy instantly when in a struggle, and heavy. But I have been thinking of trying to add them to my gear again after years of collecting dust. I find a knife much easier to carry, conceal, and deploy quickly when needed.

On a related note, I do find it ironic and somewhat amusing that we law abiding patriots are always worried about our legal ramifications if god forbid we have to defend ourselves. Yet, BLM/Antifa scum riot, loot, burn, and murder with impunity. As long as the government agrees with your message, carry on and do what you need to, we got your back. Sad state of affairs we're in.
 

FS1

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If they are close enough to hit with a baton...you let them get too close.

Carrying an extra mag is ok, but I think if you have to reload you have been way to random with your shots. Aim don't just shoot wildly. I know easy to say but hard to do. Keep your cool, it's a tactical advantage. And the potential collateral damage to others is too great to not aim effectively. Don't waste your ammo and you won't need a reload. But by all means carry a pistol if you can. JMHO

Remember the meme with the Dali Llama when you think you don't have time to aim. It said "you don't have time to miss".
 

isofahunter

Get Tough or Die!
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Here's the thing, yes, disparity of force is well established in the courts, but, the bar can be pretty high here.

Good read:


Ayoob:[laughing] Uh huh! Gila, whenever I hear someone say, “A good shoot is a good shoot,” I want to say back to them, “Yeah, and next Easter a bunny is coming to your house to bring you eggs.”

I coming down on the side of the German on this one. There seem to be so many instances today in these riots, protests, and BLM violence that may or may not meet the requirement of deadly force, and I for one am not getting in a fistfight with someone. I want options in the continuum of force that I can use short of deadly force to make sure the fight is as weighted in my favor as possible, 'fair' fights are for suckers.

Now, it depends on your states laws what those 'options' are. It may be a baton, it may not. Like above, NC limits the non-lethal tools I can carry. It maybe that I have to decide which I would rather do, explain to a jury why I busted a guy up with a baton, or shot him repeatedly in the face. If you are a fit average size male, your ability to explain why you shot a guy in the face because you feared for your life is is probably going to be a tough sell.
Agree, after the criminal part you most likely will be subject to civil suit where you will have to defend killing a father of 6, who was a model citizens, a great provider and was on the cusp of great things which you took away. In today's world if the skin tones do not match you are already way behind in the court of public opinion. My bottom line is I do everything possible to avoid getting stuck in a shit storm.
 

CavScout85

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If they are close enough to hit with a baton...you let them get too close.
So you are suggesting you shoot every potential threat who comes within 20-30' of you in a crowded, dynamic environment? Or that you can control that space around you? Or that you have made the correct threat assessment for everyone in that space? This just isn't reality based thinking.
 

FS1

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So you are suggesting you shoot every potential threat who comes within 20-30' of you in a crowded, dynamic environment? Or that you can control that space around you? Or that you have made the correct threat assessment for everyone in that space? This just isn't reality based thinking.
Well if someone right next to me starts beating on me I ain't reaching for a baton. Just saying. I think my thinking is more real than yours. You want to go all Bruce Lee on their ass good for you. My options are retreat if I can, shoot if I can't. If I can't draw a pistol how will I draw a baton.
 

mcameron

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If they are close enough to hit with a baton...you let them get too close.

Carrying an extra mag is ok, but I think if you have to reload you have been way to random with your shots. Aim don't just shoot wildly. I know easy to say but hard to do. Keep your cool, it's a tactical advantage. And the potential collateral damage to others is too great to not aim effectively. Don't waste your ammo and you won't need a reload. But by all means carry a pistol if you can. JMHO

Remember the meme with the Dali Llama when you think you don't have time to aim. It said "you don't have time to miss".
1) you cannot control your environment 100%.....someone running at you with a knife will be within striking distance before you have time to acknowledge a threat.

hell, you likely wont even notice someone walking up behind you until they are at arms distance.

2) its easy to be accurate with your shots on a calm cool range.....get punched in the face and see how accurate those shots are

what if you have a mag failure?

what if you shoot 10-12 shots at an attacker and you have a lul....are you going to top up? or stand there with a mostly empty gun?
 
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FS1

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1) you cannot control your environment 100%.....someone running at you with a knife will be within striking distance before you have time to acknowledge a threat.

hell, you likely wont even notice someone walking up behind you until they are at arms distance.

2) its easy to be accurate with your shots on a calm cool range.....get punched in the face and see how accurate those shots are

what if you have a mag failure?

what if you shoot 10-12 shots at an attacker and you have a lul....are you going to top up? or stand there with a mostly empty gun?
1. How will I draw a baton?

2. Like I said easy to say, hard to do. If you are the type that panics in crisis...you will likely lose.

If I shoot twelve shots at an attacker and miss, twelve more ain't gonna help.

JMHO You do what you feel is best for you. I will do what I feel is best for me. Hopefully neither of us ever has to find out who was right.
 

CavScout85

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Well if someone right next to me starts beating on me I ain't reaching for a baton. Just saying. I think my thinking is more real than yours. You want to go all Bruce Lee on their ass good for you. My options are retreat if I can, shoot if I can't. If I can't draw a pistol how will I draw a baton.

Didn't say you couldn't draw.. on the contrary, I am making the argument that you do have the time, and you have a choice based on your assessment of the threat as to how you are going to respond. If the only two options you have are retreat or shoot, you are in a world of shit.

You say "Well if someone right next to me starts beating on me I ain't reaching for a baton", then "My options are retreat if I can, shoot if I can't. "

The entire article I referenced above was about the concept of disparity of force. You should probably read it and try to understand it. If you are engaged, can't retreat, and start shooting... well, best if you can educate yourself about the concept before you make that decision.
 

FS1

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Didn't say you couldn't draw.. on the contrary, I am making the argument that you do have the time, and you have a choice based on your assessment of the threat as to how you are going to respond. If the only two options you have are retreat or shoot, you are in a world of shit.

You say "Well if someone right next to me starts beating on me I ain't reaching for a baton", then "My options are retreat if I can, shoot if I can't. "

The entire article I referenced above was about the concept of disparity of force. You should probably read it and try to understand it. If you are engaged, can't retreat, and start shooting... well, best if you can educate yourself about the concept before you make that decision.
So I should take a beating and just live with it? If you are in reasonable fear of your life, shooting is justified if you can't retreat. If I get blind sided I will be in reasonable fear. JMHO
 

Shooter McGavin

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Texas: legal to own and keep in your car. Not legal to carry. Well that's out, so I can't carry it.
California (I travel for work): Illegal to own period, so that's out.

My best bet is to keep my head on a swivel and avoid shit. BTW I can carry a knife in both states legally, so I do.
 

CavScout85

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So I should take a beating and just live with it? If you are in reasonable fear of your life, shooting is justified if you can't retreat. If I get blind sided I will be in reasonable fear. JMHO
Again, not what I said. You have to have options beyond 'retreat' and 'shoot' so you don't have to take that beating, either in real-time, or in the monday morning quarterbacking that is going to come after. And again, those options may not be a baton for you, especially if they are illegal in your state, because then you will take a beating in a court of law.

You need to have options running the gamut from avoidance, to retreat, to non-lethal methods, to lethal. And in an ideal world you make all the correct assessments, and make all the right moves. Probably won't happen, and yes, it's a shit sandwich sometimes. Stack the odds in your favor and have more options than retreat or shoot.
 
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Seed tick

Gunny Sergeant
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Thanks. All that shit I was carrying before made my pants fall down and I klanked when I walked!
 

Bkultra

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The only problem I have with this is, you have to be LEO/Mil to order a Peacekeeper RCB. They are not illegal to own or possess, even in my backwards state (IL)... So why have the restriction?
 

Strykervet

Resident Phoenix Eye and Dim Mak Instructor
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I think there is some discrepancy in what would be a delay weapon if you just attack someone with it, and what would be a deadly weapon if defend yourself with it.
There is. It's not a deadly weapon if it's used in defense. Here anyway, and on my property where the BOR is in full effect regardless of communist fiats.

But I'm sorry German, BTDT, not playing that fucking game again. If there's a situation where I'll pull a baton on you, I'll just go ahead and light your ass up. Same litmus. The ten motherfuckers that jumped me back before I was old enough to legally carry ruined that for the rest of the assholes that wanna take advantage of me.

And German, I know you know what an oops kit is, and since we may as well keep it light, a fucking Old Timer pocket folder is more than sufficient. But an ASP will work too.

Oh, and there's a thread needing your attention, you've been paged. Guys are needing advice on their "riot loadouts"... Bound to get epic. Guys are loading ten years worth of bugout gear into a backpack and toting it around town.
 

bhanley

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my view on all this current behavior in society is avoid, avoid avoid. however if i do find myself in some situation where i fear for my life, i'm going to say just that out loud as it will probably be picked up on a facebook live they are doing. and subsequently so would be me defending my life or the lives of others around me. but the odds are against it. head is always on a swivel to avoid bad situations. im not playing games with intermediate use of force items.
 

jrhtx

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I don't see any restriction to order here. Never dealt with them.





The only problem I have with this is, you have to be LEO/Mil to order a Peacekeeper RCB. They are not illegal to own or possess, even in my backwards state (IL)... So why have the restriction?