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PSR rifles

G

g3ninfinite

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 21, 2007
912
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Los Angeles County
#1
Long story short, I've been out of LR shooting for about 2 years now. I'd like to come back to LR and give ELR a try. I had originally intended to wait for FN to release a mk20 SSR to the LE/civilian sector but I'd probably be waiting forever. I'm coming off heavy TRG22/42 use as well as some rem700 type action builds, so bare with me.

I have loosely followed the PSR contract and it submissions so I do not have a detailed knowledge base of these rifles or scopes as they pertain to the contract, so here are a few questions.

1) S&B won this contract correct?

2) Who won the rifle contract?

I'm a buy once cry once kind of guy and hope to make my purchase the first week of February.

The only rifles I am considering at this point are:

Barrett Mrad($5500)
Ashbury aws338($?)
Remington MSR($?) Doubt this will be available by then.

I know there are at least a few Mrad's floating around as well as Saber FORSST chassis with XL actions floating around. Remington I imagine is not out yet.

Has anyone had a chance to play with both a SABER FORSST chassis in 338 AND Mrad? What did you think was the better buy?
 
#2
Re: PSR rifles

I wouldn't even consider a Ashbuy built 338....I think they start around 10k.....and I find a hard time believing they are worth even close to that.
 
#3
Re: PSR rifles

The way it was explained to me by a buddy in 10th group is the S&B contract is for SOCOM alone and the big army bid process was canceled before it was completed and there is no word on when/if it will be started again .
 
#4
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldn't even consider a Ashbuy built 338....I think they start around 10k.....and I find a hard time believing they are worth even close to that. </div></div>

I was thinking of just buying components if i went that route. Isnt the chassis something like 2500 and a surgeon XL repeater 1770? Obviously Plus barrel and trigger etc.
 
#9
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The PSR solicitation was reissued. You can find it in the usual place such things are found, I believe.</div></div>

And the fun begins anew...
 
#10
Re: PSR rifles


G3 ,

It may pay to find out all you can from Ashbury RE the chassis etc , as I am of the opinion that yes the chassis is available for the Surgeon XL , but only running the single stack 5rd mag , and not the 10rd double stack , single feed mag , that they display on their own rifle build .
 
#11
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
G3 ,

It may pay to find out all you can from Ashbury RE the chassis etc , as I am of the opinion that yes the chassis is available for the Surgeon XL , but only running the single stack 5rd mag , and not the 10rd double stack , single feed mag , that they display on their own rifle build . </div></div>

Thanks for the heads up. That would be a deal breaker for me.
 
#12
Re: PSR rifles

Without having any experience at all of the Barret Mrad, I must say that I am very interested in that gun.
I think there is a lot of things that is done in the correct way and they have kept the weigth down considerably.
But that said, I have no idea about the quality or anything.
But the concept looks very nice.

Håkan
 
#16
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What will those rifles do that a TRG won't? </div></div>

Depending on the rifle, its a "fast" switch barrel.
 
#17
Re: PSR rifles

Why not call GAP and have twice the rifle built exactly how you want it, vs. overpaying for some overpriced PSR solicitation?

Guarantee the hand built GAP rifle will be more accurate...
 
#18
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What will those rifles do that a TRG won't? </div></div>

Depending on the rifle, its a "fast" switch barrel. </div></div>

K

The reason I asked is that the rifles he rattled off are either vaporware or extremely expensive.

Speaking hypothetically about PSR rifles is all well and good but it's not practical as most of those types of rifles/technologies are usually super expensive and not always what they are cracked up to be...
 
#19
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spuhr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I have no idea about the quality or anything.
But the concept looks very nice.

Håkan </div></div>

The MRAD is the only one I have shot, I liked it... a lot. I wouldn't worry about the quality, I have seen one tossed through a concrete culvert, followed by the operator, and it worked flawlessly.
 
#20
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What will those rifles do that a TRG won't? </div></div>

Depending on the rifle, its a "fast" switch barrel. </div></div>

K

The reason I asked is that the rifles he rattled off are either vaporware or extremely expensive.

Speaking hypothetically about PSR rifles is all well and good but it's not practical as most of those types of rifles/technologies are usually super expensive and not always what they are cracked up to be...


</div></div>


While I will agree somewhat that the MRAD is expensive I really like all the features the rifle offers as well as the seemingly simplistic design. As far as the TRG platform I have owned 3 and I loved them. But I'm looking for something other than a traditional stock layout. As far as Gap is concerned I'm sure they build fine rifles but for this purchase I want a complete factory solution and for this reason I believe the MRAD will be my purchase.

Also what leads you to believe that the MRAD isn't what it's cracked up to be?
 
#21
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: g3ninfinite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also what leads you to believe that the MRAD isn't what it's cracked up to be? </div></div>

I'm sure it's fine. I'm just speaking as a skeptic as we're constantly bombarded by ads/commercials for the latest, greatest (SCAR ACR).

I don't know what the retail cost for the MRAD will be but I know their other 338 lapua is around 5k...that would buy a LOT of custom rifle from a builder...
 
#22
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: g3ninfinite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also what leads you to believe that the MRAD isn't what it's cracked up to be? </div></div>

I'm sure it's fine. I'm just speaking as a skeptic as we're constantly bombarded by ads/commercials for the latest, greatest (SCAR ACR).

I don't know what the retail cost for the MRAD will be but I know their other 338 lapua is around 5k...that would buy a LOT of custom rifle from a builder...

</div></div>

About 5400 for the Mrad.
 
#23
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: g3ninfinite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also what leads you to believe that the MRAD isn't what it's cracked up to be? </div></div>

I'm sure it's fine. I'm just speaking as a skeptic as we're constantly bombarded by ads/commercials for the latest, greatest (SCAR ACR).

I don't know what the retail cost for the MRAD will be but I know their other 338 lapua is around 5k...that would buy a LOT of custom rifle from a builder...

</div></div>


I have seen more than just commercials. I have shot it in 10 degree weather and 90 degree weather, looked at it, finger fucked it, ran the bolt, dry fired, etc. I was impressed. 5 and a half is a big chunk, but I think the market will support it and thus, its worth it. The polimer sleaved bolt is groundbreaking...awesome, the caliber interchangability is added versatility. The trigger was designed due to real world experience with the 98B and altered due to what they found.

I am not against custom builds, I support George and crew a lot, but you would be hard pressed to get this class of weapon from one.
 
#26
Re: PSR rifles

I've had the MRAD in my hands about a week. I have to say it is machined well and seems to have been thought out to fit the PSR contract pretty well. I have one of the 24.5" tubes just like the ones that will be submitted. I hate to say but I've had mount issues. I have 2 brand new USO scopes to mount and play with but no rings that fit. I should have the PSR scope from USO( Gap Mil reticle, 5-25x, 34mm tube,Mil Erek,58mm objective) mounted by Monday as long as Fed Ex gets me the stuff USO shipped. No reason they shouldn't. I'm also waiting on a new set of rings from American Rifle Company to mount the 3.8-22x 35mm tube with CMG reticle and 1/2 MOA Erek knob with a 44mm Lo Pro. I have everything except rings. Everything I have around here is just a couple mm short with the bell of the scopes hitting the rail. Dam I want to pull the trigger o this thing and test it out. Range report will follow very soon.
 
#28
Re: PSR rifles

So here is the latest. As of this month (August), the new PSR rifle solicitation entered "pre-solicitation". This is basically the assessment stage where the military has already held an "industry day" that disclosed what they think they are looking for and had a chance to talk back and forth with people who are interested.

Now they are narrowing it to the point that someone is willing to sign off on exactly what the requirements are because once it goes out for sources (sources sought) its pretty much set in stone what the criteria is.

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&...re&_cview=1

Pretty much every document since the original presolicitation has been marked as a sensitive/secure package. (Why give away to our enemies publicly what the next generation of long distance infantry weapons platform is going to look like before we have to?)

This means that all you and I will be able to see is the interested vendors list and the pre-industry-day information on the request until someone actually wins the contract.

I went through the industry day presentation and have summarized for you what they are looking for:
* Same supplier provides the rifle, suppressor, magazines, headspace gauge(s), and ammo for the test, and then provides all of that plus massive amounts of ammo for the contract itself.
* Rifle weighs no more than 18 lbs with unloaded magazine
* Rifle must have a top picatinny rail
* Overall length under 50 inches fully extended
* Must have a safety
* Bullet of provided ammunition fired from rifle must have a remaining velocity of no less than 1,228 fps at 1,640 yards. (Edit: Holy Shit.)
* Bullet of [yadda yadda] must have minimum of 700 ftlb of kinetic energy at 1,640 yards.
* Rifle + Ammo, fired without suppressor, holds 1MOA (measured using vertical spread only) at 1,000 yards.

The accuracy test for this is to have the person selling the rifle to shoot 12 5-shot groups. 6 each for 2 of the sample rifles. They then get to drop one for each rifle. The remaining 10 groups must average 1.0 MOA or less using Extreme Vertical Spread as the measurement.

Other stuff the government wants:
* Left and right hand versions
* System ideally modular to use both 7.62 and 300 WM
* Unit or operator level barrel replacement, maintaining zero
* Compatibility with existing specifications for special operations SOPMOD rail position specifications
* Sound suppressor with system with good service life, minimal POI shift, high accuracy
* Barrel life of MINIMUM 2,500 rounds with test data to prove it


As if all of the above is not enough, thats just the PRIMARY criteria. Also being looked at is ease of operation, how it handles, whether you can break it down, can you adjust the stock for the user? Can you reposition the rails? Modify LOP? How hard is it to attach and remove the suppressor? What about holding on to the damn thing? How is the surface finish? can you grip it well?

Next step you are going to NOT see is assessment of meeting criteria at NSWC. Then the behind-closed-doors testing against criteria (read: live fire testing of the 3 provided samples).

Next visible step is november source selection and april of next year actual contract award.

And the funny thing is... thats JUST to get to the real testing stage. Where the manufacturer has to ship 10 rifles with kit, and about 26,000 rounds of ammunition under the contract by July 2012. [Edit: this is one of the things that I think people miss in stuff like the recent KAC threads, the turnaround from being told that you are the vendor to when you have to have 10 rifles and 26k rounds of ammo shipped is 2 months. Not every custom builder can meet that kind of time table.] Testing and user assessment is not scheduled to be done until September 2012.

Yeah, its going to be a while before any of us are building PSR clones.
 
#29
Re: PSR rifles

By the way, the interested vendors list on this is a combination of "sourcing" organizations (e.g. people looking to buy up other people's rifles and ammo and submit them together to fill the contract. this is also a way of hiding who is really interested in this. Some rifle manufacturer could be providing samples to the sourcing org who is the one technically listed on the vendor list) and just a few recognizeable direct vendors.

Some of the notable direct vendors include:
* Colt
* Barrett
* Cheytac
* Steyr
* Beretta

Most of the other vendors right now are, like I said, solutions firms who bring together a bunch of sources to put a bid in, or small/component players who may do things like ammo, or barrels, or hard cases. They have expressed interest but are not likely to be competitors.

One other note. I did some back of the napkin calculations, it takes a hot load to hit the external ballistic numbers they asked for at 1,640 yards. I might be wrong but my quick calculations would indicate that even a 300WM superformance falls about 300fps short at that distance.
 
#31
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By the way, the interested vendors list on this is a combination of "sourcing" organizations (e.g. people looking to buy up other people's rifles and ammo and submit them together to fill the contract. this is also a way of hiding who is really interested in this. Some rifle manufacturer could be providing samples to the sourcing org who is the one technically listed on the vendor list) and just a few recognizeable direct vendors.

Some of the notable direct vendors include:
* Colt
* Barrett
* Cheytac
* Steyr
* Beretta

Most of the other vendors right now are, like I said, solutions firms who bring together a bunch of sources to put a bid in, or small/component players who may do things like ammo, or barrels, or hard cases. They have expressed interest but are not likely to be competitors.

One other note. I did some back of the napkin calculations, it takes a hot load to hit the external ballistic numbers they asked for at 1,640 yards. I might be wrong but my quick calculations would indicate that even a 300WM superformance falls about 300fps short at that distance. </div></div>

Weren't all the previous PSR candidates .338LM?
 
#32
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: g3ninfinite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Weren't all the previous PSR candidates .338LM?</div></div>

Yes... sort of.

So the short answer is that yes, they were all 338 as primary caliber but several of them offered the opportunity to do switch barrel, etc to shoot other calibers. This is actually one of the differentiators in the updated PSR solicitation that whatever is put forward is modular at the unit or operator level to switch to one of these other cartridges.

Interestingly, some of the original PSR bidders are not listed as interested vendors in the second PSR solicitation. Sig is not there, nor is FNH, nor even Daniel Defense.

Personally, the most interesting to me as a civilian is Remington's MSR so far. Although the remington military site would indicate that it was clearly developed with the PSR bid in mind, they arent listed directly as an interested vendor. This would be one of those options being submitted under the name of some org that is combining different companies' parts and unifying them into a single contract response.
 
#33
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By the way, the interested vendors list on this is a combination of "sourcing" organizations (e.g. people looking to buy up other people's rifles and ammo and submit them together to fill the contract. this is also a way of hiding who is really interested in this. Some rifle manufacturer could be providing samples to the sourcing org who is the one technically listed on the vendor list) and just a few recognizeable direct vendors.

Some of the notable direct vendors include:
* Colt
* Barrett
* Cheytac
* Steyr
* Beretta

Most of the other vendors right now are, like I said, solutions firms who bring together a bunch of sources to put a bid in, or small/component players who may do things like ammo, or barrels, or hard cases. They have expressed interest but are not likely to be competitors.

One other note. I did some back of the napkin calculations, it takes a hot load to hit the external ballistic numbers they asked for at 1,640 yards. I might be wrong but my quick calculations would indicate that even a 300WM superformance falls about 300fps short at that distance. </div></div>

I thought Cheytac was out of business. Are they still around ?
 
#35
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The unit level modularity is interesting...opens it up a bunch. Supply a barrel vis and a action wrench and a bunch of rifles qualify. </div></div>

Has to be done in the field and also I believe there is a time limit.
 
#36
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Interestingly, some of the original PSR bidders are not listed as interested vendors in the second PSR solicitation. Sig is not there, nor is FNH, nor even Daniel Defense.

</div></div>

Just because they are not on the interested vendors list, does not mean they are not involved. It just means they have to stay on top of the updates themselves. They are not automatically notified of any changes. Alot of places use the interested vendors lists for sales leads (spam).
 
#37
Re: PSR rifles


My AX338 is sitting at my UK dealer now , so it will be airfeighted to me soon , should have it in a few weeks .

Looking forward to finally getting IT , to start with will be running it with s PMII 5-25x56mm and AI Suppressor .

Later Chris
 
#38
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zipollini</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I thought Cheytac was out of business. Are they still around ?</div></div>

http://www.cheytac.com/ and the number still works / was answered.

I would be very surprised if they were out of business or anywhere near, given the recent trend towards tolerance of wildcat / special cartridges and increased investment in the high end rifle segment.

If they were having cash flow problem, I would expect it more poor sourcing, execution, and management, likely not demand. Although, I took a look at the M-200 intervention. Its demanding f'ing $11.5K apiece for one at retail!

Someone has clearly left thier senses. Either CheyTac or the people willing to pay that kind of money for the M-200.
 
#39
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zipollini</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I thought Cheytac was out of business. Are they still around ?</div></div>

http://www.cheytac.com/ and the number still works / was answered.

I would be very surprised if they were out of business or anywhere near, given the recent trend towards tolerance of wildcat / special cartridges and increased investment in the high end rifle segment.

If they were having cash flow problem, I would expect it more poor sourcing, execution, and management, likely not demand. Although, I took a look at the M-200 intervention. Its demanding f'ing $11.5K apiece for one at retail!

Someone has clearly left thier senses. Either CheyTac or the people willing to pay that kind of money for the M-200. </div></div>

This is why I asked -

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2207187
 
#42
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not call GAP and have twice the rifle built exactly how you want it, vs. overpaying for some overpriced PSR solicitation?

Guarantee the hand built GAP rifle will be more accurate... </div></div>

Not snipery enough.
 
#43
Re: PSR rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not call GAP and have twice the rifle built exactly how you want it, vs. overpaying for some overpriced PSR solicitation?

Guarantee the hand built GAP rifle will be more accurate...</div></div>

1) Volume
2) DoD Government contracting bullshit
3) DoD Government contracting risks/costs (you have to invest quite a bit up front to get to the point of winning a contract)
4) GAP may or may not be interested, who knows. It has to make business sense for them, too, and given that its a private company, who knows if george would even care to do something like that.
 
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