Want to get one or the other... setup is .308 on a AI chassis with Khales scope or 6.5 creedmore with a Nikon scope I eventually want to get rid of. Suggestions, thoughts ?
Night Vision PVS 30 or Trijicon IR hunter ?
- Thread starter ptamim
- Start date
Two different animals
It’s really hard to suggest what way to go if you don’t describe the main use or purpose for the optics ;
hunting ?
Target shooting?
It’s really hard to suggest what way to go if you don’t describe the main use or purpose for the optics ;
hunting ?
Target shooting?
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Get the PVS 30. Then if you hunt get one of the nice used thermal monoculars for $2-4000 floating around on the for sale sections here and elsewhere.
Well ideally get both !
But if for yotes and hogs I would get thermal first. Thermal can see into shadows (moon shadows) and vegetation where NV (without illumination) cannot.
And even illumination does not solve all issues ... illumination bounces off vegetation and water in the air ... making it more difficult to see in those situations.
Where PVS-30 shines is for more detail ... which might be useful for checking antlers on a deer, but not needed for hogs and yotes ... IR hunter with BAE OASYS core and good lens has plenty enough detail for hogs and yotes.
But if for yotes and hogs I would get thermal first. Thermal can see into shadows (moon shadows) and vegetation where NV (without illumination) cannot.
And even illumination does not solve all issues ... illumination bounces off vegetation and water in the air ... making it more difficult to see in those situations.
Where PVS-30 shines is for more detail ... which might be useful for checking antlers on a deer, but not needed for hogs and yotes ... IR hunter with BAE OASYS core and good lens has plenty enough detail for hogs and yotes.
IDK ... I haven't had time to try it myself ... too busy using my mk3 as dedicated rifle scope (as it was designed) 
It probably works ok out to around 100yds ... with the proviso that remounting it could shift your point of aim by an 1 inch or so on average ... which for hogs and yotes at 100yds or closer is not the end of the world. I did see one video of a guy trying it ... I will hunt that down and post it if I find it.
I did try the SNIPE-IR.
It did require adjustments to bore sight.
But it was able to support up to 8x magnification (6x good, 8x a little fuzzy but definitely usable if goal is to hit target).
Until proven otherwise I would expect Hunters and patrols in clipon mode to support about the same in terms of magnification but to lose 1-2 inches at 100yds upon remount (and that is assuming you use a rail clip to ensure you get it on the same rail) ... but it still might be off mostly on windage due to not perfect remount. If I only had 1 rifle, I would have to get MK3 working in clipon mode ... but fortunately I have 7 rifles, so can afford to keep a couple set up for dedicated night use.
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It probably works ok out to around 100yds ... with the proviso that remounting it could shift your point of aim by an 1 inch or so on average ... which for hogs and yotes at 100yds or closer is not the end of the world. I did see one video of a guy trying it ... I will hunt that down and post it if I find it.
I did try the SNIPE-IR.
It did require adjustments to bore sight.
But it was able to support up to 8x magnification (6x good, 8x a little fuzzy but definitely usable if goal is to hit target).
Until proven otherwise I would expect Hunters and patrols in clipon mode to support about the same in terms of magnification but to lose 1-2 inches at 100yds upon remount (and that is assuming you use a rail clip to ensure you get it on the same rail) ... but it still might be off mostly on windage due to not perfect remount. If I only had 1 rifle, I would have to get MK3 working in clipon mode ... but fortunately I have 7 rifles, so can afford to keep a couple set up for dedicated night use.
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Looks like he was testing it to me. It isn't focused on a "review" on the capability, I agree with that. But it looks like he is testing it.
But that's the only one I've seen of anyone even trying it.
There is also an old thread by ultimate night vision on AR-15 talking about the mk2 clipon capability, they at least say it is possible to do with the mk2. But I don't recall any evidence being shown of them doing it.
Otherwise, we will have to wait for someone to show up with some more evidence!
I don't want to tear down my mk3 system right now, I'm using it every night ! I'll try to remember to try it next summer when I don't use it as much.
But that's the only one I've seen of anyone even trying it.
There is also an old thread by ultimate night vision on AR-15 talking about the mk2 clipon capability, they at least say it is possible to do with the mk2. But I don't recall any evidence being shown of them doing it.
Otherwise, we will have to wait for someone to show up with some more evidence!
I don't want to tear down my mk3 system right now, I'm using it every night ! I'll try to remember to try it next summer when I don't use it as much.
How do you like the mk3... if I were to get one it would be with the 60 mm objective. How is the clarity/resolution at magnification upwards of 20x ?
My mk3 is 35mm lens ... when I upgaded to mk3 from mk2 everyone thought i was "crazy" for not getting the 60mm lens ... maybe I am the only person who has upgraded and didn't go for 60mm lens
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Recently went to range farther west with shooting buddy where we can shoot out to 1400 yds. We used the mk3 35mm on my carbine as the night spotter. At night we were shooting heated steel (66% size of nato-e ... 12x24 silhouettes) from 500yds to 900yds (100yd intervals). I was on 4x digital (10x net magnification as the 35mm is 2.5x optical). I could see the targets ... I could see the hits ... I could see the misses and I could see the bullets flying thru the air. It was moderately fuzzy but when I was using it I wasn't thinking about that I was watching the bullets, the targets and the dirt splashes. This thermal worked as a night spotter out to 900yds on 66% size heated steel.
On 2x digital (5x net) the image is a little fuzzy
On 4x digital (10x net) the image is more fuzzy ... but definitely usable ... I crank to 4x rarely for final shot placement when I have time
On 8x digital (20x net) the image is real fuzzy ... but not useless for final shot placement ...
Thermal is digital, so you are "zooming in on the pixels" so the pixels get larger are larger and you see only a 1/4 of them when upping the digital mag by 2x. So you loose FOV (field of view) also.
If I ever upgrade to 60mm lens it will be for long distance spotting. and carrying the spotter on the carbine where it can also be used for closer in shooting. But for me the big downside of the 60mm lens is the reduced FOV. The 19mm focal length lens is 22 degrees, the 35mm focal length lens is 12 degrees and the 60mm focal length lens is 7 degrees. Lately I've been simulating the 60mm lens FOV by scanning about with the 35mm on 2x. And it is tough maintaining orientation when half of what I am looking at when I am out on coop partol is 100yds away or less. 5x is a lot of magnification at night, especially close in and the loss of FOV seems like a show stopper for me.
I have helmet mounted thermals I can wear to mitigate this issue and if I upgrade I might have to wear one of them every time I go out to maintain SA around me. I usually just bring the carbine and thermal for coop patrol, so having to wear the head mounted nods will be extra prep time, extra weight for coop patrol. Life is full of trade-offs.
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So bottom line the 60mm is going to be a little fuzzy at 9x net (2x digital) and more fuzzy at 18x net (4x) digital, and real fuzzy at 36x (8x digital). But for long distance scanning/spotting it would give me 2x more net magnification than I have now and that would be useful for long distance but anti-useful for short distance. Life is full of trade-offs
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Recently went to range farther west with shooting buddy where we can shoot out to 1400 yds. We used the mk3 35mm on my carbine as the night spotter. At night we were shooting heated steel (66% size of nato-e ... 12x24 silhouettes) from 500yds to 900yds (100yd intervals). I was on 4x digital (10x net magnification as the 35mm is 2.5x optical). I could see the targets ... I could see the hits ... I could see the misses and I could see the bullets flying thru the air. It was moderately fuzzy but when I was using it I wasn't thinking about that I was watching the bullets, the targets and the dirt splashes. This thermal worked as a night spotter out to 900yds on 66% size heated steel.
On 2x digital (5x net) the image is a little fuzzy
On 4x digital (10x net) the image is more fuzzy ... but definitely usable ... I crank to 4x rarely for final shot placement when I have time
On 8x digital (20x net) the image is real fuzzy ... but not useless for final shot placement ...
Thermal is digital, so you are "zooming in on the pixels" so the pixels get larger are larger and you see only a 1/4 of them when upping the digital mag by 2x. So you loose FOV (field of view) also.
If I ever upgrade to 60mm lens it will be for long distance spotting. and carrying the spotter on the carbine where it can also be used for closer in shooting. But for me the big downside of the 60mm lens is the reduced FOV. The 19mm focal length lens is 22 degrees, the 35mm focal length lens is 12 degrees and the 60mm focal length lens is 7 degrees. Lately I've been simulating the 60mm lens FOV by scanning about with the 35mm on 2x. And it is tough maintaining orientation when half of what I am looking at when I am out on coop partol is 100yds away or less. 5x is a lot of magnification at night, especially close in and the loss of FOV seems like a show stopper for me.
I have helmet mounted thermals I can wear to mitigate this issue and if I upgrade I might have to wear one of them every time I go out to maintain SA around me. I usually just bring the carbine and thermal for coop patrol, so having to wear the head mounted nods will be extra prep time, extra weight for coop patrol. Life is full of trade-offs.
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So bottom line the 60mm is going to be a little fuzzy at 9x net (2x digital) and more fuzzy at 18x net (4x) digital, and real fuzzy at 36x (8x digital). But for long distance scanning/spotting it would give me 2x more net magnification than I have now and that would be useful for long distance but anti-useful for short distance. Life is full of trade-offs
the simple answer is that the PVS- 30 was designed to be a clip on and for years has been one of several go to items for the military. and with few exceptions works great.
The Hunter was designed to be a thermal stand alone, and works great doing that.. All the above answers are certainly correct, but for the money you are going to spend, go rent this gear and do a hands on. I have spent a lot of money and time getting where I am finally satisfied. And then a newer, fancier devise comes out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I use a white phosporus CNVD on a 6.8 with a CQBSS Leupold and a CQBL-1 laser and a SF IR.Vise light. Works great. Hand help L3 X320 thermal scanner, Have several other set ups but that is my favorite for pigs and yotes.
The Hunter was designed to be a thermal stand alone, and works great doing that.. All the above answers are certainly correct, but for the money you are going to spend, go rent this gear and do a hands on. I have spent a lot of money and time getting where I am finally satisfied. And then a newer, fancier devise comes out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I use a white phosporus CNVD on a 6.8 with a CQBSS Leupold and a CQBL-1 laser and a SF IR.Vise light. Works great. Hand help L3 X320 thermal scanner, Have several other set ups but that is my favorite for pigs and yotes.
I had access to a PVS-22 for several years and killed several coyotes with it. I recently started looking to add either a NV or thermal to my personal equipment and decided to go thermal. It will be used exclusively for coyotes (perhaps hogs some day) and I can't find any advantage NV would have over thermal when it comes to the type of hunting I intend to use it for.
Both methods have pros and cons of each. Who ever said rent one before you purchase is a wise option.
i love nv and i love thermal. here's some things to consider on one vs the other. if i had to smash one flat with the other i promise you the pvs 30 would win and retain bore sight more than likely. robustness is a value i hold dear and commercial thermal cant come close
i can hunt for weeks if not more on the same set of lithium batteries in my 30. how long can a thermal run? they're all terrible when compared to that.
i have detected animals and ID them further with my clip on then you can even think about with most thermals.
i trust my day optic zero 110% that when i pick it up its going to be on and my 30 collimated. i never have 110% confidence in a thermal zero.
thermal doesn't see through glass. it also doesn't really see through fog or smoke like they like you to believe.
now, you know all the shit thermal does and they are absolutely a compliment to each other without question. if i could only afford one and wanted to know it will be viable longer than i will be...i would get a robust military grade clip on.
i can hunt for weeks if not more on the same set of lithium batteries in my 30. how long can a thermal run? they're all terrible when compared to that.
i have detected animals and ID them further with my clip on then you can even think about with most thermals.
i trust my day optic zero 110% that when i pick it up its going to be on and my 30 collimated. i never have 110% confidence in a thermal zero.
thermal doesn't see through glass. it also doesn't really see through fog or smoke like they like you to believe.
now, you know all the shit thermal does and they are absolutely a compliment to each other without question. if i could only afford one and wanted to know it will be viable longer than i will be...i would get a robust military grade clip on.
Have you used mil spec thermals? IE Flir T-Series, LWTS , etc? They seem pretty rugged and no poi shift.
What an awesome post, entertaining too! That statement alone is almost enough to boot my ass off the fence and buy a PVS-30.
agree and they are all that. but most people arent considering military grade thermal when comparing it to a mil grade nv unit. if youre gonna go above commercial in terms of thermal and have the coin, by all means you will get what you pay for.
I love the crap out of my PVS-30/INTENS. It is rock solid and I have had no issues with zero shift at all (read as I can not tell a difference between my day and night zero's). I have no issues with focus back and forth between 2 rifles, I actually haven't refocused it in the last 7-10 outings with it.
Made a 950M shot to IPSC steel (painted black) on a moonless cloudy night. Was in front of a MK6 3-18.
Been running the same CR123A battery all year, many hours of use. Love that it will also work with a AA battery as well. Very, very happy with the PVS-30.
Made a 950M shot to IPSC steel (painted black) on a moonless cloudy night. Was in front of a MK6 3-18.
Been running the same CR123A battery all year, many hours of use. Love that it will also work with a AA battery as well. Very, very happy with the PVS-30.
I can clearly push the mag up to 18X with my Leupold MK6 and this works. With that said I don't normally run the mag that high due to the decreased FOV. With my PMII 5-25 I can push the magnification a bit higher, maybe 20X, but again I normally find myself down in the 15X range as it is easier to spot misses.
I have hit IPSC steel at 1000M with no moon and 1100M with a 1/4 moon and no added illum on black painted steel. The PVS30 is a very solid 1000M night optic IMHO (or 1100y if you use that system).
I have hit IPSC steel at 1000M with no moon and 1100M with a 1/4 moon and no added illum on black painted steel. The PVS30 is a very solid 1000M night optic IMHO (or 1100y if you use that system).
Let me also add that while others say that you can have your center axis of the optic offset from that of a CNVD, mine are all centered with in a few 0.01's of an inch.
With that said, you will need really good day glass to get that much magnification out of any CNVD. The reasoning for this is light transmission through the day optic, and clarity of the image. Cheaper day glass will cause the image to become dark very quickly as you go up in magnification. Small imperfections in the glass will also distort the image more quickly as you increase magnification as well. While I'm not saying that you NEED to run out and get a S&B PMII, or other high end glass, to shoot with a CNVD, it does help. Although for a small fee I will gladly tell your spouse that the high end glass is in fact needed
You just need to understand that Day scopes can and will seriously limit the ability of your multi-thousand dollar NVD.
With that said, you will need really good day glass to get that much magnification out of any CNVD. The reasoning for this is light transmission through the day optic, and clarity of the image. Cheaper day glass will cause the image to become dark very quickly as you go up in magnification. Small imperfections in the glass will also distort the image more quickly as you increase magnification as well. While I'm not saying that you NEED to run out and get a S&B PMII, or other high end glass, to shoot with a CNVD, it does help. Although for a small fee I will gladly tell your spouse that the high end glass is in fact needed
You just need to understand that Day scopes can and will seriously limit the ability of your multi-thousand dollar NVD.
I use a Mk3 60 for hunting. No way would I want NV, or a clip on it would be a step backwards in efficiency.
Sir. I just returned from another 48 hour stint in the swamp. Deer hunting by day and hogs & coyotes by night. I'm not sure what your rifles weight is but let me give you a comparison. My Accurate Ordnance CTX 6.5 cm in an XLR chassis topped with a Armasight Zeus thermal, Harris bipod & Omega can is my go to hunting rig. She comes in at 15 pounds and is a little on the long side. Shooting from an elevated box stand is literally a dream. Take that very same rifle off into the night on foot and it quickly becomes a bit challenging. Shooting off hand forget it. Laying down in the swamp (NOT A GOOD IDEA). Better find a tree so as to brace your rifle. I know next to nothing about the AI Rifles line other than I believe their intended use is targets. You could go this route but after a few hours of lugging her around you may have a change of heart. Or add another few more pounds and use a tripod. And how did my hunt go you ask, coyotes were all around me barking raising hell could not see through the four foot grass. Give technology a few more years and the drones will be a coyotes worst night mare.
I use a mk3 35mm for most of my hunting/critter control ... (or a .22lr with an ODIN 17mm 1x 320(30) on top) ... and those are efficient setups as I can go on foot around our 5 acre human area where the coop is and don't even need to take nv. If I go out in the pastures, I do take nv with odin on helmet side by side with 14 or pas-29 on 14.
For hog hunting in open terrain I've used 6.5G(18) ... and as that is setup now it is 13 pounds 7 oz with burris 3-15x, harris bipod, omega. Also a couple of riser rails and a tripod interface add some oz. With one magazine with 15 rounds it is 14 pounds 8 oz.
If I add thermal clipon it is 15 pounds 11 oz. The cllipon is weight forward so not ideal. But I can go standing unsupported for inside 100yds, I just can't hold it up all night. WIth the mk3 35mm on 5.56(10.3) I can.
Tripod much better option for the 6.5G(18) especially with the clipon and that is not efficient for rapid engagements. But it works for setting up and waiting.
I can remove the bipod and the tripod interface if I know I'm going on moving foot patrol type hunt and save a few oz. Ideally I would take 1 leg primos stick in that case.
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5.56(10.3) with mk3 35mm and 1 - leg trigger stick for over 100yds ... 10 lbs 11 oz with 25 rds in the mag
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6.5G(18) with Burris xtr2 3-15x scr-mil and utc-x ... 15 lbs 11 oz with 15 rds in the mag
For hog hunting in open terrain I've used 6.5G(18) ... and as that is setup now it is 13 pounds 7 oz with burris 3-15x, harris bipod, omega. Also a couple of riser rails and a tripod interface add some oz. With one magazine with 15 rounds it is 14 pounds 8 oz.
If I add thermal clipon it is 15 pounds 11 oz. The cllipon is weight forward so not ideal. But I can go standing unsupported for inside 100yds, I just can't hold it up all night. WIth the mk3 35mm on 5.56(10.3) I can.
Tripod much better option for the 6.5G(18) especially with the clipon and that is not efficient for rapid engagements. But it works for setting up and waiting.
I can remove the bipod and the tripod interface if I know I'm going on moving foot patrol type hunt and save a few oz. Ideally I would take 1 leg primos stick in that case.
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5.56(10.3) with mk3 35mm and 1 - leg trigger stick for over 100yds ... 10 lbs 11 oz with 25 rds in the mag
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6.5G(18) with Burris xtr2 3-15x scr-mil and utc-x ... 15 lbs 11 oz with 15 rds in the mag
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I really appreciate everything you guys have suggested and recommended. I did pull the trigger and purchased the PPS 30. Arrived to my office today. Extremely excited.
Just want to give my two cents on experience of purchase. I ordered initially from RMR. They were extremely helpful and answered all questions I had. Unfortunately the scope delivered to me looked like it had been thrown down in Rockyhill with scratches on the objective lens and outer body very beat up. I sent them pictures of the device and they were extraordinarily apologetic stating that it’s not how they did business. Arrangements were quickly made for the old unit to be returned and a new one sent very shortly after. The new unit it is exactly what I was expecting and overall in excellent shape. I’ll have to do now is put it on my rifle and test it. Really have to take my hat off to Jeremiah at RPR for the very good customer service.
Now for a stupid question for you guys. This is a 2 battery unit. Do the batteries go in the same direction? Is there any literature on the net about the unit itself ie on use ?
Pat
Just want to give my two cents on experience of purchase. I ordered initially from RMR. They were extremely helpful and answered all questions I had. Unfortunately the scope delivered to me looked like it had been thrown down in Rockyhill with scratches on the objective lens and outer body very beat up. I sent them pictures of the device and they were extraordinarily apologetic stating that it’s not how they did business. Arrangements were quickly made for the old unit to be returned and a new one sent very shortly after. The new unit it is exactly what I was expecting and overall in excellent shape. I’ll have to do now is put it on my rifle and test it. Really have to take my hat off to Jeremiah at RPR for the very good customer service.
Now for a stupid question for you guys. This is a 2 battery unit. Do the batteries go in the same direction? Is there any literature on the net about the unit itself ie on use ?
Pat
Well it's been a while since I started this thread... wanted to give an update. The PVS is cool as stink. I had a lot of fun with it a few weeks ago hunting at night.... Definitely made a difference in the ability to see the critters... long shot a Hog from a tree stand at 300 yards. You get what you pay for !
No one has brought this up yet so heres the reason you need to go clip-on NV or thermal vs stand alone thermal scope.
You State this is going on an AI 308, well the Trijicon thermals and most stand alone thermals for that matter, the eye relief is not going to work well at all for bolt action applications. It's just not going to be comfortable and your bolt will get in the way also.
The only stand alone thermals which are going to have the eye relief of a day optic will be the new ATN thermal scopes which are not even out yet.
So I recommend a clip-on for sure!
You State this is going on an AI 308, well the Trijicon thermals and most stand alone thermals for that matter, the eye relief is not going to work well at all for bolt action applications. It's just not going to be comfortable and your bolt will get in the way also.
The only stand alone thermals which are going to have the eye relief of a day optic will be the new ATN thermal scopes which are not even out yet.
So I recommend a clip-on for sure!
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