• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Q's Regarding Firearm Sales.

3bnRanger

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 20, 2007
150
2
49
Cincinnati, Ohio
Can anyone provide a definative answer to the following:

When I sell a firearm via the internet, do I need to hold on to (file) the provided buyer's FFL or does the liability transfer to the the FFL I ship the firearm to? If I do need to file the FFL, how long should it be held?

When I sell a firearm FTF, I have the buyer agree to signing a Bill of Sale/Transfer of Ownership document to "limit" my liability should a situation arise in the future, but I have wondered about the above question.

I'm trying to stream-line and organize my firearm documentation....thanks.
 
Re: Q's Regarding Firearm Sales.

Me personally I never do a FTF for liability reasons, and any paperwork involved I never get rid of. I'm not a lawyer or a dealer, just a private citizen that doesn't want any chance of BS in the future.
 
Re: Q's Regarding Firearm Sales.

When I do online/Internet/non-FTF sales of any kind, I maintain a copy of the FFL for my records and I keep them indefinitely, along with other pertinent info on the sale like a description of the firearm, pics, serial numbers, comms with the buyer, etc. In the "digital age" it is easy to keep a scanned electronic copy (PDF or other format) if "space" or keeping paper floating around is your concern. ATF specifically allows faxed copy, electronic copy, etc. of FFL paperwork for transfer purposes, so I see no reason why keeping an electronic copy is insufficient. As for how long...I have only been engaged in buying/selling firearms online for around 9yrs or so and I still have the paperwork from each transaction. YMMV, but I honestly can't point you to a provision in federal law that says you must maintain for x-number of years.

As for FTF sales...I <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">ALWAYS</span></span> get a copy of the person's DL and, if they have one, their concealed carry permit (CCP) and I won't do business with people that refuse to provide that information. This does several things, including verification of age, address, and other vital stats and if they have a CCP, it shows at the time it was issued that they passed the BG/Criminal Rec. check. Also, living on the border with two other states, I have had several people want to buy handguns from me when they were not residents of my state as indicated by their DL. I won't do that for obvious reasons. Again, I keep copies of that documentation. As for your "Bill of Sale/Transfer of Ownership" document...I don't know what's in your doc, nor do I necessarily need to know, but I will tell you that it is meaningless in terms of the "legalities" of a transfer or to shield you from potential civil (and possibly criminal) liability if the person you sell the firearm to turns around and does something stupid (to himself or to others). Now, I'm not saying you are going to get hit in the bank account or go to jail...but that doesn't stop an angry person from suing you in civil court or stop a zealous district attorney from pursuing criminal negligence, etc. charges against you.

If you are that concerned about liability, then for future FTF purchases, involve a local FFL dealer who will probably handle a transfer for $25 or so. It is money well spent if you feel better or have piece of mind about the future liability. If the buyer completes a 4473, gets cleared for the transfer/purchase by our friends at the Bureau, then that pretty well takes you off the hook if he turns out to be a raving lunatic or an idiot who injures himself or others with the firearm.
 
Re: Q's Regarding Firearm Sales.

I do only the minimum required. Everything else has little or no effect on one's "liability".

For a private FTF transfer, I am only required to verify age and residency. I do that by looking at the buyer's driver's license. I make no copy of it and I offer no Bill of Sale. I used to be a storefront FFL, but now that I am not, there is no requirement for me to keep a record of any kind.

Keeping a lot of extra information from the FTF transfer provides no specific protection because the law does not offer any. Nowhere is it written that, "If the seller has x, y, and z records, he shall be granted indemnification beyond what is codified."

There is no liability for being in the chain of custody of the firearm. Just because you had prior ownership does not mean you have any responsibility for what happened to/with the gun after you transferred it. It was never "in your name" so to speak, unless of course you live in a state that requires registration.

So somebody gets whacked. A trace will be made from the manufacturer, to the distributer, to the dealer, and to the first buyer on a 4473. After that, the gun's prior owners may never be known if the gun never traded on a 4473 again. If the authorities can trace it to you, they ask who you sold it to. My answer: "I sold it to some guy who paid cash and whose age and residency I verified." That's the end of the trace. My liability? Without means, motive, and opportunity to commit the crime in question, I have none.
 
Re: Q's Regarding Firearm Sales.

With regard to liability, Graham's Rule #1 applies.

With regard to the rest, common sense and some independent research using Google to get to the relevant agency websites should suffice.

The answer to your original question is: No; nobody can provide you with a definitive answer because you do not specify what liability you are talking about or whose criteria you are willing to accept.
 
Re: Q's Regarding Firearm Sales.

And if you don't know what Graham's rule #1 is, here it is: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Don't seek legal advice from laypeople.</div></div>

And I'll add:

Lindy's Corollary to Graham's Rule #1: Don't seek legal advice from <span style="font-style: italic">anyone</span> over the Internet.

The following does not constitute legal advice, but merely a conclusion drawn from six decades plus of being <span style="font-style: italic">around</span> lawyers:

What constitutes liability is a concept which exists only in the mind of a particular court and/or jury somewhere. Since <span style="font-style: italic">somewhere</span> is unspecified, there is no way for you to know what your liability might really be in advance.

A reasonable person may take precautions to limit the results of being found liable - but the only guarantee is that you will, as everyone, eventually, does, die.
 
Re: Q's Regarding Firearm Sales.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And if you don't know what Graham's rule #1 is, here it is: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Don't seek legal advice from laypeople.</div></div>

And I'll add:

Lindy's Corollary to Graham's Rule #1: Don't seek legal advice from <span style="font-style: italic">anyone</span> over the Internet.

The following does not constitute legal advice, but merely a conclusion drawn from six decades plus of being <span style="font-style: italic">around</span> lawyers:

What constitutes liability is a concept which exists only in the mind of a particular court and/or jury somewhere. Since <span style="font-style: italic">somewhere</span> is unspecified, there is no way for you to know what your liability might really be in advance.

A reasonable person may take precautions to limit the results of being found liable - but the only guarantee is that you will, as everyone, eventually, does, die.
</div></div>

^^^^
best advise right there.


There are a lot of innocent people in jail, there are a lot of guilty people walking the street. It is not a justice system it is a legal system. Lawyers always win no matter whether you win or loose.
 
Re: Q's Regarding Firearm Sales.

The potential problem with face-to-face transfers is not necessarily the liability with post-sale criminal activity, but is with the actual transfer itself. Look at 18 U.S.C 922(d) and see the restrictions with which the seller must be familiar. Fugitive? Druggie? Dishonorably discharged? Restraining order?

The ID and Bill of Sale that gives comfort to so many sellers really does nothing to reveal or mitigate the other issues. The only legal relief is whether the seller knew or had "reasonable cause" to know if the buyer was disqualified. And here's the twist: the more information you ask for, the more you might be deemed to reasonably know the buyer's status.

I'm not suggesting that people avoid FTF transfers. I've engaged in a few, and mostly as a buyer. Given the things I like to buy, most of my stuff is bought on the 'net and sent to a dealer. What I am doing with this post is pointing out the side of the transaction that is considered less often.