Quandary. Forster backorder plus… bushing or non-bushing FL sizing die before using Sinclair expander die?

[EnjoyTheWilderness]

First, I am new to handloading. So new that outside of helping my Dad measure powder 30+ years ago, I have not done ANY handloading yet. But I have been reading forums and watching videos like mad (think I have a good handle on the theory) and have purchased nearly everything I need. At the moment my hold up is that the Forster FL sizing die and micrometer seating die I planned to use have been on backorder (not with Forster directly, but via a large online dealer) for weeks with no idea when they may show up. I have been on the Forster backorder waiting game previously while waiting on go/no-go gauges. I like their products, but hate that it always seems to be on backorder.

I am now considering moving to Redding dies (for both sizing and seating) as those seem to be in stock and seem to be as good or better than Forster (I know that die manufacture selection can be a Ford vs. Chevy thing). This is all for a 6.5 Creedmoor in a large frame AR gas gun for future PRS style shooting.

My planned process (from a die perspective) is…

1. Decapping (Lee)
2. Full length sizing (Forster/Redding with decapping pin/neck sizing ball removed)
3. Neck sizing/tension (Sinclair expander with 0.002 under bullet diameter mandrel)
4. Seating (Forster/Redding Micrometer)

My quandary here is that what full length die do I get from Redding? I could get a regular non-bushing die (similar to the Forster), or I could go ahead and get their bushing die. Now I understand that the Sinclair mandrel will set the final neck tension, so on the surface (I think) there may be no advantage to using the bushing die with the expander die. But I am sort of leaving the option open for trying out just the bushing die alone in the future to see if I notice a difference from using the expander. But to make all of this work, I don’t know what size bushings to buy. Especially as depending upon the use of the expander (or not) will impact the bushing diameter.

All of the above has been on my mind for a few days and then the thread below showed up yesterday. The first response to the OP is 100 percent in sync with my thinking, but with specifics as to bushing sizing (.308 in that example)…

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/expander-mandrel.6917570/

My problem is that at the moment I don’t know the neck wall thickness of my brass. I suspect I have a ball micrometer sitting under the Christmas tree, so I can measure after the 25th. I have some new Peterson brass in hand, but plan to also buy and try out Starline as well. The example in the above thread was using 0.013” brass neck wall thickness, but without measuring, I seem to read that the Peterson and Starline are 0.014 (or maybe slightly larger). So I am assuming 0.014 wall thickness and 0.002” under sized to set neck tension, I have the following calculations…

Loaded neck diameter = 0.264 + (0.014 *2) = 0.292”
Bushing for neck sizing via FL die = 0.292 - 0.002 = 0.290”
Bushing for neck sizing via Sinclair mandrel = 0.292 – 0.004 = 0.288” (or maybe 0.289)

As mentioned in the other thread, the smaller bushing is to undersize the OD another 0.001 or 0.002 so that the Sinclair mandrel can expand it to it's final value (ID 0.002 under bullet diameter)

So I am thinking three bushing sizes to start with. 0.290, 0.289 and 0.288”.

In the end, my questions are…

1. Should I just wait for the Forster dies (no idea how long that may be, kind of want to get started now)
2. Should I get the Redding non-bushing FL sizing die (ignore the bushing size issue)
3. Should I get the Redding bushing FL sizing die (more options to tweak in the future)
4. If “yes” to #3, are my starting point bushing measurements above good? If not, what should I get?
5. I assume Redding is the answer if I don’t wait for the Forster. Am I missing another obvious solution?

 

[Onyx Z]

1. Forster seating dies seems to have a higher quality seating stem; the Redding's have been known to crack from what I have read. I have no experience with Redding seating dies as I use all Forster BR when it comes to seating dies. This is purely from what I have read regarding the Redding issue. So, personally, I would wait for Forster, considering how long the wait would be.

2. I would use a FL bushing die .004 under the loaded neck OD, then an expander mandrel to straighten out the brass thickness inconsistencies to .002 under loaded neck OD, thus giving you .002 neck tension. Or, if the brass you have chosen is known to have a consistent neck diameter, then omitting the expander mandrel and using a bushing .002 under neck diameter should suffice.

Standard FL non-bushing dies seem to oversize the necks .006-.008, then expanding to the proper diameter. This overworks the brass and shortens it's life. I would stay away for precision loads.

I will let someone else comment on the neck thickness/diameter as I have no experience with brand of brass you have chosen.

 

[BurnOut]

When ordering neck bushings, I assume a minimum neck thickness of .012 (for everything except .223 and .204 Ruger; I'll go .010 on those) because that's as thin as I'll turn them, then do the bushing math as specified. So, for 6 Creedmoor, for example, I ended up with (.012 * 2) + .243 = .267, and then I'll take .003 off of that... to end up with a .264 bushing.

I've found that even if the neck thickness is over .012, this method of bushing selection works the neck less than non-bushing FL sizing dies.

EDIT: after sizing the neck as described above, I use a 21st Century expander mandrel, which gives me .002 neck tension.

 

[spife7980]

I like my Redding does more than my line forster. In my experience the forster stems are hot or miss crap, not Redding’s like the above poster said. So very Chevy vs ford lol

 

[mustang-cars]

I like my Redding does more than my line forster. In my experience the forster stems are hot or miss crap, not Redding’s like the above poster said. So very Chevy vs ford lol

Yup, I’ve had nothing but bad luck with the Forster seating stems. Redding seating stems on the other hand have been trouble free.

 

[EnjoyTheWilderness]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I have put together a spreadsheet to do some "what if" calculations using a few different wall thicknesses (.013 +/-) as well as diameter reductions (.004 +/-) to see what potential bushing sizes would be needed. I think I have settled on 0.284, 0.286 and 0.288. I hadn't thought about turning the necks down to a specific (uniform) thickness. I had read about that and wasn't planning on doing that, but I will take that under consideration. I will measure my brass and see how uniform the neck walls are and then decide what to do. Lastly, I am going to cancel my Forster order and order the Redding FL bushing sizing and their micrometer seating dies.