question about annealing procedure

[uracowman]

about a week or so ago, I annealed my first set of brass and took the end product to the range with great results and I noticed that seating the bullets were A LOT easier than before. I did a bit of research on in the internet about annealing and the process was pretty straight forward, but I had some questions to ask.

1) when annealing, where do you guys point the flame? I aim the central part of the flame at the middle of the neck while turning the brass using a drill.

2) Are you looking for the NECK to turn blue or the SHOULDER to turn blue? I ask because when the shoulder turns blue, my neck begins to turn red but this is the instant where I pull the case out of the flame. I inspect the neck and it shows a blue hue as well, but there are some online sources that state the neck should never turn red. I've found it impossible so far o heat the neck and shoulder blue at the same time unless you're suppose to just heat the brass until just the shoulder turns blue. Using the method I just stated, I am assuming I didn't overheat the brass even though the necks turned red because the shoulders didn't collapse upon full length resizing.

 

[normbal]

Re: question about annealing procedure

I used templaq (I forget the rating offhand) and came up with 7 to 8 seconds MAX for getting .308 brass annealed. I aim the flame at the junction of the neck and shoulder. Bullets DO seat more easily and the tension seems more uniform. I don't worry about the neck turning red, much. It's not going to melt. I get the color change to come down to about the level of other commercial brass I have on hand. Works for me. YMMV.

 

[boltstop]

Re: question about annealing procedure

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: normbal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I used templaq (I forget the rating offhand) and came up with 7 to 8 seconds MAX for getting .308 brass annealed. I aim the flame at the junction of the neck and shoulder. Bullets DO seat more easily and the tension seems more uniform. I don't worry about the neck turning red, much. It's not going to melt. I get the color change to come down to about the level of other commercial brass I have on hand. Works for me. YMMV. </div></div>

I did what you did here, except I never used templaq. This works on .308 Win brass; tried it on .30-'06 brass yesterday. Seems like it will work as well.

 

[Hunt]

Re: question about annealing procedure

You really don't need Tempilaq after doing a few as you can go by sight. Point the blue tip of the flame at the neck shoulder junction. It usually takes about 7 seconds and when you see 1) the neck begins to slightly glow a plum color and 2) see the color of the brass change a darker color and run slightly below the shoulder, you are done. Don't let the necks start to glow a bright orange as they will not hold a temper.

 

[Gene Poole]

Re: question about annealing procedure

This has been my experience too: junction of the neck and shoulder and about 8 seconds. I have my drill on a swivel and just rotate it around to drop the case out of the socket and into a water bath.

Here's my setup (I just mocked this up for the pictures. No flame or actual annealing shown):

 

[bricktop]

Re: question about annealing procedure

This is what I did so far to a few scrap cases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZLDj7KCYOQ

Have some tempilaq coming today, will use it see how hot I was getting it.

 

[Gene Poole]

Re: question about annealing procedure

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bricktop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is what I did so far to a few scrap cases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZLDj7KCYOQ

Have some tempilaq coming today, will use it see how hot I was getting it. </div></div>

I doubt your getting them hot enough. Also, it helps to use a deep-well socket to protect the rest of the case.

 

[uracowman]

Re: question about annealing procedure

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: normbal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I used templaq (I forget the rating offhand) and came up with 7 to 8 seconds MAX for getting .308 brass annealed. I aim the flame at the junction of the neck and shoulder. Bullets DO seat more easily and the tension seems more uniform. I don't worry about the neck turning red, much. It's not going to melt. I get the color change to come down to about the level of other commercial brass I have on hand. Works for me. YMMV. </div></div>

Is the junction in the hottest part of the flame where it is bright blue or are you holding the case at the cooler region?

Also I forgot to ask one other thing. On a bunch of my cases, I'm seeing black spots around the shoulder area after annealing. What is causing this and is it a bad thing?

 

[boltstop]

Re: question about annealing procedure

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uracowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">snip

Also I forgot to ask one other thing. On a bunch of my cases, I'm seeing black spots around the shoulder area after annealing. What is causing this and is it a bad thing? </div></div>

I think it's contaminants, corrosion getting singed, finger oils, and unburned and burned powder residue soot. When you vibrate the case again in your corn cob media you will get most of the color and all of the black off.

 

[red hawk]

Re: question about annealing procedure

+1 normbal,works for me also.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: question about annealing procedure

If your brass goes to a dull sheen you have gotten the case too hot. You should have nice coloring with the brass retaining some shine, not golden mind you but a definate bright sheen.

 

[bricktop]

Re: question about annealing procedure

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gene Poole</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bricktop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is what I did so far to a few scrap cases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZLDj7KCYOQ

Have some tempilaq coming today, will use it see how hot I was getting it. </div></div>

I doubt your getting them hot enough. Also, it helps to use a deep-well socket to protect the rest of the case. </div></div>

Some 650 and 700 tempilaq on the inside of the neck verified that it is getting hot enough. I also ran 450 down the side of the case, with it melting about 1/8" below where the bluish annealing line is.

 

[targaflorio]

Re: question about annealing procedure

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uracowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Using the method I just stated, I am assuming I didn't overheat the brass even though the necks turned red because the shoulders didn't collapse upon full length resizing. </div></div> it may not be in the sizing die when you find that you have over-annealed your cases

 

[uracowman]

Re: question about annealing procedure

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: targaflorio</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uracowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Using the method I just stated, I am assuming I didn't overheat the brass even though the necks turned red because the shoulders didn't collapse upon full length resizing. </div></div> it may not be in the sizing die when you find that you have over-annealed your cases </div></div>

I don't quite follow this statement

 

[targaflorio]

Re: question about annealing procedure

If you keep the case body from annealing, you are probably safe. This from Ken Light: <span style="font-style: italic"> Over annealing is certainly the worst condition, and can even be dangerous. Over annealing has two aspects: over annealing of the case neck only, and any annealing of the lower half of the case. There is no particular danger to over annealing the case necks, which is the usual result of standing the brass in water and heating the necks with a torch. All that will happen is that your accuracy will not improve, or it may become worse, and the cases may seem to be a little more sticky during extraction. Case life will be improved because the necks are soft -- too soft. However, you will conclude that annealing is not what it is cracked-up to be, and may even be a waste of time.
Any annealing whatsoever of the cartridge base is over annealing and is dangerous. This area of the brass must retain the properties it had when it left the factory. If it is made the least bit softer, let alone "dead" soft, the stage is set for another shooter's nightmare. At the very least, you may get a whiff of hot gas directed toward your face. At the worst, you can be seriously injured as your gun behaves more like a hand grenade than a firearm.

I once heard a tale of a gentleman who placed his brass on a cookie tray and placed the whole batch in an oven at 650 degrees for over an hour. He wasn't hurt -- at least seriously. His attitude toward annealing is very negative.

Cartridge brass which has been annealed over it's entire length will exhibit signs of excessive pressure even with moderate and reduced loads. Indeed, cases in this condition are subjected to excessive pressures. Any pressure is excessive. Head separation, incipient head separation , stuck or sticky cases, blown primers, swollen cases, swollen case heads, enlarged primer pockets) I mean R-E-A-L-L-Y enlarged) and just about every other sign of excessive pressure imaginable can occur with cases which have been annealed over their entire length.</span>

http://www.kenlightmfg.com/cartridgecaseannealer.htm

 

[savagehunter44]

Re: question about annealing procedure

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bricktop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gene Poole</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bricktop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is what I did so far to a few scrap cases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZLDj7KCYOQ

Have some tempilaq coming today, will use it see how hot I was getting it. </div></div>

I doubt your getting them hot enough. Also, it helps to use a deep-well socket to protect the rest of the case. </div></div>

Some 650 and 700 tempilaq on the inside of the neck verified that it is getting hot enough. I also ran 450 down the side of the case, with it melting about 1/8" below where the bluish annealing line is.</div></div> ok . so 650 or 700 is the magic number for the inside and 450 on the outside ? i dont know anything about annealing but can i just use 450 down the side ? when is the best time to anneal your cases.

 

[tolnep]

Re: question about annealing procedure

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: savagehunter44</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bricktop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gene Poole</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bricktop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is what I did so far to a few scrap cases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZLDj7KCYOQ

Have some tempilaq coming today, will use it see how hot I was getting it. </div></div>

I doubt your getting them hot enough. Also, it helps to use a deep-well socket to protect the rest of the case. </div></div>

Some 650 and 700 tempilaq on the inside of the neck verified that it is getting hot enough. I also ran 450 down the side of the case, with it melting about 1/8" below where the bluish annealing line is.</div></div> ok . so 650 or 700 is the magic number for the inside and 450 on the outside ? i dont know anything about annealing but can i just use 450 down the side ? when is the best time to anneal your cases. </div></div>

search. the consensus seems to be, place 750 tempilaq inside the neck. when it evaporates the neck is done. put 450 tempilaq down the outside, if you anneal to far down the body, it will show.

i pondered this and gave up wondering if i could perfect the method and bought a benchsource machine. i want my brass to last, but more importantly i want my neck tension to be consistent. once you get the time setting down, you load it and let it run.

the tempilaq testing you use to find the time setting.

 

[uracowman]

Re: question about annealing procedure

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tolnep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

search. the consensus seems to be, place 750 tempilaq inside the neck. when it evaporates the neck is done. put 450 tempilaq down the outside, if you anneal to far down the body, it will show.

i pondered this and gave up wondering if i could perfect the method and bought a benchsource machine. i want my brass to last, but more importantly i want my neck tension to be consistent. once you get the time setting down, you load it and let it run.

the tempilaq testing you use to find the time setting. </div></div>

After a bit of testing, I found that holding the brass for about 7-8 seconds does the job.

 

[spleify]

Re: question about annealing procedure

What type of gas are you folks using for this?

Can I just use the propane that I use for my camping stuff. You know the Coleman propane gas. Or is there something special.

 

[NoFail]

Re: question about annealing procedure

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: spleify</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What type of gas are you folks using for this?

Can I just use the propane that I use for my camping stuff. You know the Coleman propane gas. Or is there something special. </div></div>

Propane is Propane, I'll be starting this proccess using the Coleman bottles.

 

[NoFail]

Re: question about annealing procedure

I just, I hope, annealed these several times fired .308.
How do they look to you guys? Most of them 7 seconds tip of blue flame at shoulder/neck junction. A few 6 secs, 8 secs & a couple 9 secs. Is there coloration on specific ones that look better than others in the pics?

 

[MacM11]

Re: question about annealing procedure

I use the Bench-Source machine. It takes some experimenting with flame length, distance from cartridge neck, etc. I only use Lapua brass and with the two torches, mine only takes 4 sec on the timer.
Of the pictures by NoFail, my pic would be: 3rd row, 3rd from right (if you were going by 'looks' only).

 

[AtOne]

Re: question about annealing procedure

Nofail those look pretty nice to me.

I anneal in a darkened room and watch the inside of the case mouth, When it just starts to glow its done.
Your times sound similar to mine in that 7 to 8 second range, Really the time is dependent on how hot your torch flame is so everyone's times may vary.

 

[spleify]

Re: question about annealing procedure

There are different types of gas. Mapp gas is one and much different from propane. That is why I was asking.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NoFail</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: spleify</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What type of gas are you folks using for this?

Can I just use the propane that I use for my camping stuff. You know the Coleman propane gas. Or is there something special. </div></div>

Propane is Propane, I'll be starting this proccess using the Coleman bottles. </div></div>

 

[NoFail]

Re: question about annealing procedure

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AtOne</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nofail those look pretty nice to me.

I anneal in a darkened room and watch the inside of the case mouth, When it just starts to glow its done.
Your times sound similar to mine in that 7 to 8 second range, Really the time is dependent on how hot your torch flame is so everyone's times may vary. </div></div>

AtOne I had my torch set rather on the the low end with blue tip extending about 1.25" out from nozzle. I also did some with torch set higher and the necks turned black, I don't have good feeling about those ones. But those good looking ones I too stopped right when a glow began. I didn't have lights turned off but it was kinda dim lighting

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: question about annealing procedure

When I got my Ken Leight machine I asked about MAP versus regular propane. He said there was no need to use MAP, as propane was plenty hot. I've used regular propane ever since.

I buy the big tanks at home depot, and use a line splitter (I got mine at Bass Pro shop - but you can get them at any camping store) so both of my torches feed from the same fuel tank.

Jeffvn

 

[steve123]

Re: question about annealing procedure

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: macm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use the Bench-Source machine. It takes some experimenting with flame length, distance from cartridge neck, etc. I only use Lapua brass and with the two torches, mine only takes 4 sec on the timer.
Of the pictures by NoFail, my pic would be: 3rd row, 3rd from right (if you were going by 'looks' only). </div></div>

I'm using a Benchsource also.

I found that I needed the flame all the way up for it stay consistent and not die down in intensity, even then I need to let it burn for a minute to stabilize, thus I decided to use only one torch. If I adjusted the flame down it would gradually die down during annealing and I'd have to keep adjusting it.

It only takes 4.2 seconds for 6x47L. I can't use color as a judge because the cases hardly change, just trusting the tempilac.

 

[jetsurgeon]

Re: question about annealing procedure

I made an annealing machine from plans and a blade from J Morris on this forum. Awesome machine btw!

Using the 750 deg templaq fluid, I've found for doing .223 rem cases it takes exactly 4 seconds. Use the templaq fluid to set your temp/time.

Also both torches (tip of blue flame) are aimed at the neck/shoulder junction. Ok maybe just a little higher on the neck, but real close to the junction.

Hope this helps!

J