Question about ARs in 308 for service rifle comps

#2
Re: Question about ARs in 308 for service rifle comps

308 caliber ARs are generally shot in NRA Long Range Highpower Prone matches. They recoil too much to have any advantage over M16s in across-the-course highpower competition (200, 300, and 500 or 600 yards).

The M14 dominated until around 1993/94 when the Army started taking the Marines' lunch money at the Interservice and Camp Perry.

Colonel Lory "Mac" Johnson told the AMU Gun Shop that they WOULD modify the M16 and M9 to win since they are the current service weapons. They've done a very good job of it.

Maybe 1 in every hundred rifles (if you're lucky) at Camp Perry during the National Trophy Matches week is an M1, M1A, or M14.
 
#3
Re: Question about ARs in 308 for service rifle comps

I haven't seen anyone shooting a .308 AR and don't expect to see many. A person can spend a little over $1,000 on a .223 AR that will get them to a Master classification, maybe even Distinguished. I don't see any benefit to shooting a .308 in Service Rifle that justifies the additional expense of a .308 AR, the extra cost of bullets and powder over a .223, and the additional recoil during rapid fire.

I typically don't see many guys shooting M1As at Service Rifle matches. That isn't because the M1A isn't a capable platform, it is, but it's no more capable than a NM AR. Honestly, I would love to shoot some matches with an M1A because I associate the gun with the discipline so much but as I mentioned above the AR path is a much more affordable way into this sport.
 
#6
Re: Question about ARs in 308 for service rifle comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for all the replies.
Tells me what I need to know.</div></div>

Do you already have a .308 that you want to use in Service Rifle competition or are you trying to determine what to buy?
 
#7
Re: Question about ARs in 308 for service rifle comps

I am going back to old school and going to shoot the .308.

The AR15 is a VERY capable package and is forgiving for a bad position with mild recoil and cheaper to operate. I recently sold my AR service rifle that took me to master level. I now have a couple M1A's to play with and an Armalite AR10 National Match rifle.
The Armalite AR10 I think is service rifle legal in NRA matches but NOT CMP which would put you in the match rifle class. That would be tough shooting next to guys that their wind call will be 1/2 what the .308 needs.

Its more fun shooting for me and I want to shoot the Springfield M1A match and possible the 1000 next year.
 
#8
Re: Question about ARs in 308 for service rifle comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cal50</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The Armalite AR10 I think is service rifle legal in NRA matches but NOT CMP</div></div>

It's something like that. There's one or two comps that don't allow a 308 AR so you pretty much have to shoot an M1A. Not that it's a bad thing but kind of silly when you think about it.
 
#9
Re: Question about ARs in 308 for service rifle comps

Shoot4fun,

(Disclaimer: I am new to highpower competitions. My advise is based on having shot NM AR-15s and a 308AR in across the course matches...I don't have the credentials of a seasoned competitor (expert, master, etc), but i have shot both rifles extensively.)

The previous poster are correct about the prevalence (or lack thereof) of M1A and 308ARs.

Here are my observations:

1. People used to shooting AR-15s always exaggerate the recoil of a 308AR. This is more so the case with folks that shoot highpower. They are comparing the recoil of a 224 bullet shot from a 17lb rifle to well, anything. I suppose someone used to shooting smallbore would find the recoil of a NM AR-15 "punishing". My M110 build(308 AR)weighs 15lbs though. To put the recoil in perspective, felt recoil and muzzle flip of a 308AR is significantly less than either that of an M1A or M1 Garand...and there was a time when these older platforms dominated XTC. I have had no problems with the sitting rapids or prone rapids. There is nothing that says you cant load lighter bullets or use reduced powder loads at short lines if the reoil is that big a deal.

2. Compared to other 30-cal semi-auto rifles (M1A, M1 garands) the 308 AR can be loaded to SAAMI specs (bolt rifle loads) without damaging anything...there is no op-rod/port pressures issues to worry about unlike the M1A or M1 platforms. A 308AR with its straight stock design and semi-auto action allows most people to shoot loads they would find punishing in a bolt rifle.

3. There is no ballistic advantage on the short lines (200-300yards) over an AR-15. That is to say the ballistic difference in shooting the higher BC 30cal bullet is not significant enough to matter in highpower...there is a difference in wind drift numbers if you run the calcs, but we are usually talking about 1.5" or less with a 10mph full value wind...basically, not enough to matter...

4. There IS a ballistic advantage to shooting the 308AR at the long lines (600yards and over). That is to say, the difference is significant enough to notice. However, you have to run the right powder & bullets (this means No 155s,168s or 175s). You have to run bullets such as the 185gr Berger, 208AMAXs, 210 Bergers, etc. You only need to get the later bullets to about 2500fps (not diffucult w powders such as RL-17, 2000MR, W760, etc) to gain about a 10-12" or more wind drift advantage over almost any .224 bullets.

5. 308ARs are more expensive to run...figure 150%-160% of the cost of an AR-15 NM. Powders are twice as much, brass are twice as much (once-fired costs about the same as new 556 brass) and bullets about $10 a box more.

6. The 308AR is not a service rile as far as the CMP is concerned. It is a service rifle for NRA matches though. This means that you will be able to use your 308AR for the majority of matches(most matches here are NRA matches), but can't earn the important badges handed out by the CMP (president's 100, DR, Governors 20, etc).

If you are looking for your first NM service rifle, i would make it an AR-15, for reasons of operating cost and ability to earn CMP title designations.

If you want to shoot a 30-cal service rifle, be competitive at all lines, enjoy some ballistic advantage at the longer lines, and stay with a platform you are familiar with, then the 308AR is your next gun.

Hope this helps. I did not see the other posters indicate that they've shot a 308AR XTC, so I've chimed in with my experience.
 
#10
Re: Question about ARs in 308 for service rifle comps

Guys,
I already have a 308 AR but not set up for service rifle/XTC shooting. There are also no service/XTC matches close by. I made this inquiry for a friend's benefit.
Thanks much for all the responses.
 
#11
Re: Question about ARs in 308 for service rifle comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shoot4fun,

1. People used to shooting AR-15s always exaggerate the recoil of a 308AR. This is more so the case with folks that shoot highpower. They are comparing the recoil of a 224 bullet shot from a 17lb rifle to well, anything. I suppose someone used to shooting smallbore would find the recoil of a NM AR-15 "punishing". My M110 build(308 AR)weighs 15lbs though. To put the recoil in perspective, felt recoil and muzzle flip of a 308AR is significantly less than either that of an M1A or M1 Garand...and there was a time when these older platforms dominated XTC. I have had no problems with the sitting rapids or prone rapids. There is nothing that says you cant load lighter bullets or use reduced powder loads at short lines if the reoil is that big a deal.

</div></div>

I don't know anyone who shoots an AR-15 because they think the recoil of a .308 is punishing. The issue really isn't about "punishing" recoil, the issue is about time and the ability to quickly recover from shot to shot. The recoil from a gas operated .308 is rather negligible for an adult man with a solid position, it's almost non-existent from a 16 pound .223. The extra second or so per shot I gain with a .223 gives me a bit more time to scope my first two shots, recover from my jacked up mag change, look at the range flag, etc.
 
#12
Re: Question about ARs in 308 for service rifle comps

USMC Mustang,

I am not implying that people shoot AR-15s because the recoil of a 308AR is punishing. I completely agree with your assessment of the recoil of from a 308AR...completely manageble with a solid position, or you will do the wobble with every shot on prone rapids
grin.gif


AR-15s are prevalent at XTC matches because they are service rifles (NRA & CMP), are accurate, easy to load for, negligible felt recoil, and cheap to shoot.

I've just noticed that quite a few folks that shoot AR-15s in highpower exclusively indicate that the recoil from 308ARs are essentially unmanagable, and will cause you to have saved rounds at the sitting and prone rapids stages, etc. Some also describe the cummulative recoil from an 88 shot match as punishing. They put those reasons foward as why one shouldn't shoot 308ARs across the course.

I'm stunned you have time to not only peer through your scope (i do that myself), but to also look at range flags between shots...i'm focused like a laser on that front sight and deathly afraid of having saved rounds.

Do you do this on the sitting stage or just on the prone rapids stage? I always finish the prone rapids stage with time to spare...that extra 10seconds feels like an eternity...maybe i should slow down and watch the wind at this stage like you do? I think i just learned something new...
 
#13
Re: Question about ARs in 308 for service rifle comps

Normally people shoot service rifle want to work toward their DR badge, or shoot the President's Hundred and such.

These matches are run by the CMP, not the NRA. CMP Rules dont allow for the 308 ARs.

I got my badge with the M14/M1A, but they don't seem to be as common as they were back then.

Pretty much to be competitive in Service Rifle one has to go the AR route in 223. They do good at 600 & 1000 with 80-90 grn bullets.
 
#14
Re: Question about ARs in 308 for service rifle comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">USMC Mustang,

I am not implying that people shoot AR-15s because the recoil of a 308AR is punishing. I completely agree with your assessment of the recoil of from a 308AR...completely manageble with a solid position, or you will do the wobble with every shot on prone rapids
grin.gif


AR-15s are prevalent at XTC matches because they are service rifles (NRA & CMP), are accurate, easy to load for, negligible felt recoil, and cheap to shoot.

I've just noticed that quite a few folks that shoot AR-15s in highpower exclusively indicate that the recoil from 308ARs are essentially unmanagable, and will cause you to have saved rounds at the sitting and prone rapids stages, etc. Some also describe the cummulative recoil from an 88 shot match as punishing. They put those reasons foward as why one shouldn't shoot 308ARs across the course.

I'm stunned you have time to not only peer through your scope (i do that myself), but to also look at range flags between shots...i'm focused like a laser on that front sight and deathly afraid of having saved rounds.

Do you do this on the sitting stage or just on the prone rapids stage? I always finish the prone rapids stage with time to spare...that extra 10seconds feels like an eternity...maybe i should slow down and watch the wind at this stage like you do? I think i just learned something new...</div></div>

No worries Flyboy, I was just trying to give a different perspective on the topic of recoil in a service rifle. I wouldn't find the recoil of a .308 in a 800 agg uncomfortable but everyone is of a different physical build and constitution so to each their own.

I don't look at range flags between shots and I only give them a look during rapids when the conditions are changing rapidly; I'll quickly glance at the range flag after I scope my first two rounds if I think they have been affected by the wind.
 
#16
Re: Question about ARs in 308 for service rifle comps

IMHO the .30 caliber in a M1 or M1A / M14 is not recoil severe but it rocks your position more than the .22 cal. Not a biggie prone but sitting is where I notice it the most. I sit cross ankle and I have never had my elbow slip out of position with the AR. With a .30 caliber if I have a sloppy position ( my fault) it breaks down quickly from the .30 recoil. The AR does not move me around nearly as much and is more forgiving for a bad position / foundation.

Its all good!
 
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