Question on reproduction 03A4

[R1d]

New to this forum, recommended to me by the folks at Gunboards, anyway I saw a rather dated Utube video on the Gibbs produced or at least Gibbs marketed reproduction 03A4 sniper. I need something to shoot in my clubs newly formed vintage sniper matches and thought this might do the trick. Does anyone know if where these are still available, and any information on their quality/accuracy?

thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Redmanss]

Here's a good bit of info on the Gibbs: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...sniper-rifles/221616-gibbs-1903a4-sniper.html

Creedmoor Sports is probably your best bet to get into the vintage game easily. CMP if you have the patience to build one up from original or if you come across an actual one that come up from time to time.

Welcome to the Hide.

 

[hrfunk]

Take a look at James River Armory too. I have one of their rifles and it is a good shooter!

HRF

 

[kraigWY]

I made mine. Its not hard to do, just find an 'a3 action and start gathering parts. You can get new barrels and stocks from the CMP, I went that route for the stock but elected to get an "un-issued" 2 grove '43 barrel. I found a Weaver K2.5. I worked well, getting me a Bronze medal in my fist VS Match but I wanted a clear scope and one that wouldn't fog so I replaced the Weaver (pictured) with one of CMP's M82 Repos. Its much clear and has a finer post.

This is not an original, but its legal for the CMP Games. But again, Gibbs, Creedmor, nor James are original either.

 

[Mike Radford]

Great looking rifle Kraig. I look forward to hearing how the M82 replica holds up and performs.

 

[classicshooter]

Sending you a message now.

 

[tokiwartooth]

I just rebuilt my Lyman Alaskan...

 

[tokiwartooth]

I also rebuild the Weavers and make them as air tight as possible using the today's sealants and greases that were not available back then. I add rubber o-rings where possible, but everyone takes off the eyepiece when mounting it in rings. I do mine AFTER I put the rings on, seal and nitro purge.

 

[kraigWY]

I'd love to rebuild my Weaver K 2.5, is there a kit or something you can get?

 

[tokiwartooth]

I'd love to rebuild my Weaver K 2.5, is there a kit or something you can get?

No kit.
Disassemble and cleaning. Regluing bad doublets, rewiring crosshairs, changing chipped glass and replacing bad erector parts.

 

[ivankonev]

Oh Lord! Hats off to you for doing all that work.

I have a Gibbs 1903/A4, and its a beautiful rifle.

Can't help thinking though that a rifle with a 24" barrel, shooting a cartridge (30-06) that starts to shine at ranges beyond 1000 yards, topped with a little 2.5X scope was a mismatch. Historical value yes, it's what they had to work with back then.

 

[D_TROS]

1903 A4 Sniper Rifle : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com

rock ridge 1903-a4 30-06 rifle new arvada co : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com

couple on gunbroker. not mine.

Good luck, I am still gathering/putting together one from a CMP action.

Regards,
DT

 

[MJ1]

Without any background on the original poster he might want to spend a season on a standard rifle learning the ropes on the 03's. But then he might be a high master we don't know.

 

[Dan M]

Agreed

The standard infantry M1903 shoots as well as the 03A4.

 

[MJ1]

Nice over kill Dan. LOL

But true as a pre-war trained rifleman was a real weapon with his 03.

 

[Mike Radford]

They are an attractive rifles, and generally accurate. Nice pics MJ and Dan.

On the A4 replicas, I recently read the specifics and can not remember every detail but simply put, they all come from the same place. Gibbs no longer has anything to do with them. Gibbs did not make them in the first place, they contracted. Regardless of the label on them, they all started in the same place. There are differences in the mounts and bases but the biggest difference is scopes and all is due to when the rifles were made, not who made them. The latest scopes are apparently pretty good, the original are poor. The newest scope is apparently incorrectly marked USMC. Also, there are some barrel differences but it may be strickly markings??

 

[Dan M]

The only issue I see in all this is that they are being fabricated from drill rifle receivers. The degree of demilling varied, but the receivers were NEVER intended to fire live ammunition ever again after demilling. You can't determine issues at the metallurgical level by non destructive inspection methods.

Gibbs swore up and down that the drill rifle receivers were perfectly safe, but they had a strong financial interest in saying that. They might be perfectly fine, but I prefer to take the Ordnance Department at face value and deem the receivers as non shooters.

 

[hrfunk]

I've never heard of one failing.

 

[Mike Radford]

The only issue I see in all this is that they are being fabricated from drill rifle receivers. The degree of demilling varied, but the receivers were NEVER intended to fire live ammunition ever again after demilling. You can't determine issues at the metallurgical level by non destructive inspection methods.

Gibbs swore up and down that the drill rifle receivers were perfectly safe, but they had a strong financial interest in saying that. They might be perfectly fine, but I prefer to take the Ordnance Department at face value and deem the receivers as non shooters.

This issue will never end. If you are in the camp as they are unsafe, do not fire one. The Ordnance dept likely did that to cover their butt but who knows. Why would CMP sale them if that was the only logical conclusion?

As Dan says, why would anyone sale them if they were gonna get sued. With today's legal environment, why would any maker take the chance, Gibbs, whoever? One rifle failing would negate profit for 10,000 rifles. I have fired one and many others have. I suggest nobody fire one to cover my butt. Anyone who elects to do otherwise, and has done their homework, can do the same and not fire one or not. I suggest do not fire one.

 

[Dan M]

Why would CMP sale them if that was the only logical conclusion?

The CMP has already spoken loud and clear on this:
http://www.odcmp.org/202/drill_inc.asp

PS: I am fairly certain that these repurposed drill rifles missed a critical step that Ordnance accomplished when rebarreling their service rifles during rebuild...

 

[Mike Radford]

The CMP has already spoken loud and clear on this:
http://www.odcmp.org/202/drill_inc.asp

I do not think they are speaking loud and clear. They are covering their butt. A retired attorney is the author. They say their lawyers say not to shoot them, as they should. That is exactly what I said, do not shoot them. Is that what I do, no. That is my decision based on extensive research but only good for me. CMP sales them but they say do not shoot them. They are doing what they should do, covering their legal butts. They are much more clear on the low numbered receivers. Do not shoot them. Many do shoot low numbered receivers and the chances of failure are also well known. Do not shoot them. Many informed do. Do not.

Also, Dan, do some more research. Once ordnance decided low numbered receivers were dangerous, they rebarrel many and sent our boys to war in WW2. Would you have taken them at their word and refused to shoot a Japanese soldier in front of you. If they meant it, and it was so critical, why did they risk so many lives. Were their rifles gonna explode. Very unlikely. Read Hatcher. Also be aware, most failures, although rare, did not result in serious injury. Wear shooting glasses, but do not shoot one of either catagory of rifles.

Lynn is a friend and I will be with him and talking to him in 12 days. Great guy. Good friend.

The CMP is not God. CMP forums and many followers seem to think so. There is much more info out there than CMP.

I stand behind what I said. Do not shoot these rifles. There have been no failures so far and they were demilled in a fashion that is most likely safe. They did not alter the critical areas of the receiver. They did not alter the heat treatment of the whole receiver. Do not shoot these receivers. I will if I want. Others, do not shoot them. Just my legal advise for free and also per Lynn apparently.

Everyone should do their homework and realize anything that CMP puts out is not from God. A good source but not definitive. Do your homework from all sources, use common sense make a decision and do not shoot these rifles. The thousands that have, including me, are stupid. So is the 80 plus year old that got a Gibbs rifle and shot amazing groups at range with a replica. Stupid. Not to mention his outshooting a sniper school instructor with a modern sniper having never shot one.

Folks that want zero risk in their life should crawl in a hole and cover their heads with kevlar. Life is a calculated risk and everything we do is. Autos are extremely dangerous. Do not drive. Do not leave home. Do not eat fast food. Do not shoot reclaimed drill rifles, or any gun. Be safe and do not enjoy life.

 

[Dan M]

I personally don't give a rat's ass what the CMP says, it is more important to know what the Defense Demilitarization Manual (DOD 4160.21-M-1) says... that specifically spells out the procedures used to modify the M1903 series rifles for drill purposes.

Only chatted with Lynn once, nice guy. Just so you know where I am coming from... on John Beard's Steel lot Codes database that Vi Shooter posted (Vi Shooter's M1903 Page), on the acknowledgements on "Explanatory Notes 12-15" I am number 8 on the list.

 

[Mike Radford]

I personally don't give a rat's ass what the CMP says, it is more important to know what the Defense Demilitarization Manual (DOD 4160.21-M-1) says... that specifically spells out the procedures used to modify the M1903 series rifles for drill purposes.

Only chatted with Lynn once, nice guy. Just so you know where I am coming from... on John Beard's Steel lot Codes database that Vi Shooter posted (Vi Shooter's M1903 Page), on the acknowledgements on "Explanatory Notes 12-15" I am number 8 on the list.

Congratulations on your status and John Beard is the man.

Now, how many of the Gibbs and related A4 rifles have failed? I am well aware of the procedure used to modify the 03 rifles for drill purposes. I have read on this debate at nauseum. I agree, use a solid non-drill rifle receiver to build an A4 replica. Never shoot one of these Gibbs type rifles. I am a lawyer also.

I am a contributing editor to Blue Book too. Hey, many of us have a resume. I have more. Do you need it. I have 3 degrees. Need them. I have collected 40 years and fired about 75 vintage snipers. Your resume may be superior to mine but my opinion is superior for my decisions. As a Nurse Anethetist, my business has long been risk benefit analysis. I make my informed decisions, have shot a Gibbs, and advice others they should not. JMO. You are free to disagree. You are not gonna change my mind because I knew exactly what I was doing when I shot my Gibbs based on a very well researched and informed risk benefit analysis. You have made your analysis and disagree. We simply disagree except apparently we advise others to not shoot a reclaimed drill rifle. What is the problem with that?

By the way, if you do not care what CMP says then why did you cite them.

 

[Dan M]

Simply in reply to your comment "Why would CMP sale them if that was the only logical conclusion?" They were sold as drill rifles, they would be classified by DOD as Supply Condition Code S for scrap.

No problem with you shooting your reclaimed drill rifle. You have done a cost/benefit analysis and risk acceptance... all of the shooting community accepts the inherent risks of discharging a firearm each time a firearm is used.

I have no beef with you in particular... it is the uninitiated purchasing rifles being sold as first quality products made from receivers sold as scrap that I have a bitch with. Have not read reports of receiver failures on the order of a low number M1903 receivers, but I have heard of an 03A4 replica that lost headspace within 200 rounds. Replacing the bolt brought the rifle into correct headspace for approximately 200 additional rounds.

The Defense Demilitarization Manual states: Weld the barrel to the receiver utilizing a high heat range, carbide impregnated welding rod. Weld will be a minimum of one inch. ; Insert a drill rod .300 inches in diameter and 4 inches long into the chamber end, allowing a portion of the rod to extend into the chamber to prevent introduction of a cartridge. Using a high heat range carbon-impregnated welding rod, apply weld around the shoulder of the barrel chamber so that a cartridge cannot be inserted into the chamber.

I'll bet more than one rifle has damage to the steel of the locking lug seats.

 

[Mike Radford]

Thanks for the specifics Dan. I agree that common sense tells one there is a potential for danger. Many internet commentators claim the the vast majority of the rifles were not properly Demilled and much less was done that regs called for. I do not know if they are accurate on that claim. Interesting that the first year for CMP Vintage Sniper Matches, it was a Gibbs with an original M73b1 that won the national title.

I sold mine. I have another A4 replica with RA 44 barrel that was built on a regular receiver and decided I did not need 2 replicas and 2 originals.

 

[Dan M]

No worries, Mike

All this revolves around latent defects. This is not unlike the low number M1903 issue... no one can determine which rifles may have a problem and which ones are fine. Caveat emptor!

 

[Charger442]

No kit.
Disassemble and cleaning. Regluing bad doublets, rewiring crosshairs, changing chipped glass and replacing bad erector parts.

where do you get replacement glass from? i have some older weavers, a couple of older mossberg scopes too and i would love to be able to get new glass peices for them. Are you buying and using donor scopes and robbing parts off them? I talked to an optics company about remanufacturing some lenses and they would have to measure the focal distance, concavity etc to get it right. like my Mossberg scope, there are about 6 lenses in there and it DOES matter which way they are placed.

 

[tokiwartooth]

where do you get replacement glass from? i have some older weavers, a couple of older mossberg scopes too and i would love to be able to get new glass peices for them. Are you buying and using donor scopes and robbing parts off them? I talked to an optics company about remanufacturing some lenses and they would have to measure the focal distance, concavity etc to get it right. like my Mossberg scope, there are about 6 lenses in there and it DOES matter which way they are placed.

Depends....If the glass is cloudy, I fix it. Heat it up and separate it. A hot air gun usually does the trick, try and leave the concave lens in the ring. Clean it all up contact surfaces with Acetone, Q-tips, lint free cloth. You can use toilet paper and Kleenex, but DON'T use paper towels or Kleenex with any type of moisturizer. You will NEVER get the glass clean. Gotta be spotless. Toilet paper is safe, perfect and CHEAP. Soft enough for my bung hole, soft enough for my glass.

Place a few drops of Canada Balsam on concave lens. It should pool up. Take your convex lens (usually the FATTER side rests in the concave lens) and place it on. Rotate it to get any air bubbles out. DON'T squeeze out all the CB. Just make sure there is no bubbles. Place it in an undisturbed area for a couple of days. I like keeping the concave lens in the ring so that I don't have to place the lens pair in a holder to make sure it doesn't shift. If you mess it up, you can start all over again. They also make UV curing glues, but if you mess up, you're screwed.

Ive also replaced objective glass on and Alaskan by using M84 objector glass I bought on Sarco, but they rip you off. Most erector glass is serviceable (separate and reglue it), and The Surplus Shed does sell a wide variety of lenses if you can determine the focal point (Using the sun to create a pinpoint of light and then measure the distance; If you have lasers, you can set them up and determine the convergence point. I also measure from the objective end to the first erector doublet... see below...). Best case is to reglue them, but it's tricky.