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questions about SBRs

J

jsmythe

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 5, 2011
48
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Nashville, TN, USA
I have two SBRs both in 223, one in 14.5" the other 10.5", both with different dedicated lowers and serial numbers. I have the tax stamp for both, so i am good as far as that goes. I also have a standard 16" AR15. I want to get a 300BLK upper in 10.5", a 9mm upper in 10.5", and a CMMG .22 conversion kit.
My questions: Would i need a tax stamp for 300BLk and 9mm?
Would i be able to use the .22 conversion kit on either of the SBRs?
If I have to get more tax stamps for the uppers, would i be able to use one of my existing lowers or would they require a completely new and dedicated lower for each?
 
No, you can get as many uppers as you want for one sir lower, you just have to be able to switch it back to the barrel length and caliber that are on your form 1/form 4.
 
ok so i really can just buy a 10.5" 9mm upper and a 10.5" 300BLK upper and use it on my existing lower that I already have a tax stamp for a 10.5" 223, and its all good? No further tax stamps needed?
 
jsmythe said:
ok so i really can just buy a 10.5" 9mm upper and a 10.5" 300BLK upper and use it on my existing lower that I already have a tax stamp for a 10.5" 223, and its all good? No further tax stamps needed?
Click to expand...

NO!!! that is NOT correct.

In order for you to "build" a short barrel rifle you would need to register a lower receiver under an ATF Form 1. Once this is approved, you will need to get the receiver engraved with either the name of the person registered or the name of the trust. Then you can run the upper assemblies you had in mind. But, you must get approval for the various barrel lengths FIRST from the ATF advised by Mr. Goldman here ATF Form 1 (5320.1)for SBR/SBS with multiple barrel lengths - NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog

It is important that you DO NOT run another upper assembly on your ATF Form 4 registered rifle. Doing so is a felony.

Here is the proper form you would need: http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf to make and register your firearm.

Any more questions, I would consult an attorney to ensure compliance. You only need one felony to lose ALL of your gun rights, then the question of which barrel length is MOOT!!!
 
Last edited:
NevadaZielmeister said:
NO!!! that is NOT correct.

In order for you to "build" a short barrel rifle you would need to register a lower receiver under an ATF Form 1. Once this is approved, you will need to get the receiver engraved with either the name of the person registered or the name of the trust. Then you can run the upper assemblies you had in mind. But, you must get approval for the various barrel lengths FIRST from the ATF advised by Mr. Goldman here ATF Form 1 (5320.1)for SBR/SBS with multiple barrel lengths - NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog

It is important that you DO NOT run another upper assembly on your ATF Form 4 registered rifle. Doing so is a felony.

Here is the proper form you would need: http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf to make and register your firearm.

Any more questions, I would consult an attorney to ensure compliance. You only need one felony to lose ALL of your gun rights, then the question of which barrel length is MOOT!!!
Click to expand...

This is not my understanding and I recall seeing a copy of a letter from the ATF saying that once you have an sbr swapping on a different upper is not a crime. I don't recall which forum it was on though.

Eta: it is a good idea to send in the paper informing ATF of a change but not legally required.
 
NevadaZielmeister said:
NO!!! that is NOT correct.

In order for you to "build" a short barrel rifle you would need to register a lower receiver under an ATF Form 1. Once this is approved, you will need to get the receiver engraved with either the name of the person registered or the name of the trust. Then you can run the upper assemblies you had in mind. But, you must get approval for the various barrel lengths FIRST from the ATF advised by Mr. Goldman here ATF Form 1 (5320.1)for SBR/SBS with multiple barrel lengths - NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog

It is important that you DO NOT run another upper assembly on your ATF Form 4 registered rifle. Doing so is a felony.

Here is the proper form you would need: http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf to make and register your firearm.

Any more questions, I would consult an attorney to ensure compliance. You only need one felony to lose ALL of your gun rights, then the question of which barrel length is MOOT!!!
Click to expand...

ATF can and will change their mind like they have on everything else, but it's been long established that one SBR lower is all that's needed to run multiple lengths, as long as you retain the ability to go back to the length on record.
 
When I had my ATF audit they had no problems with me having far more short uppers on the counter than SBR lowers.
 
NevadaZielmeister said:
NO!!! that is NOT correct.

In order for you to "build" a short barrel rifle you would need to register a lower receiver under an ATF Form 1. Once this is approved, you will need to get the receiver engraved with either the name of the person registered or the name of the trust. Then you can run the upper assemblies you had in mind. But, you must get approval for the various barrel lengths FIRST from the ATF advised by Mr. Goldman here ATF Form 1 (5320.1)for SBR/SBS with multiple barrel lengths - NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog

It is important that you DO NOT run another upper assembly on your ATF Form 4 registered rifle. Doing so is a felony.

Here is the proper form you would need: http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf to make and register your firearm.

Any more questions, I would consult an attorney to ensure compliance. You only need one felony to lose ALL of your gun rights, then the question of which barrel length is MOOT!!!
Click to expand...

You sir are 100% WRONG.

The OP already has 2 SBR'd lowers. He could have 1000 short uppers as long as he retains the ability to put those two registered lowers back to their registered configuration.

To the OP: buy away and enjoy.
 
I'm new here but I will give you the best info I have direct from NFA branch.

NFA has been using a common sense approach to this recently. The reason I say that is because I have been talking with the NFA specialist about these issues recently.

You can have as many SBR uppers as you would like for your registered lower. With that being said if you are going to make a permanent change to the lowers status. Caliber, barrel length than you will need to ammend your form 1 or form 4 to reflect the permanent change. So it is can be changes back you will be ok, but you should still submit and amended list of calibers and barrel lengths via an additional letter.
It's easy to do, just an addition letter with SN and he rifles status as a registered SBR listing additional calibers and the barrel length for each is all fine.

Now the grey area is when you have a non-SBR and an SBR. You will always want I keep your regular non-SBR AR assembled in its non-SBR configuration (assembled with its 16.0+" barrel) when you have all your other SBR uppers seperated from the SBR lower.

The constructive intent nonsense apples there.

So that I never have a problem I have enough stripped lower receivers to match the amount of SBR uppers I have, as they can be assembled into pistols. But I still have an additional sheet for my form 4 with the additional uppers listed on my SBR lowers.
 
ducdodgers said:
now the grey area is when you have a non-sbr and an sbr. You will always want i keep your regular non-sbr ar assembled in its non-sbr configuration (assembled with its 16.0+" barrel) when you have all your other sbr uppers seperated from the sbr lower.
Click to expand...

bull shit.
 
I have been an FFL/SOT for over 7 years now. My father has been on for over 20. That's was info directly give to me from the NFA specialist, not an examiner.

That's is info that I received. Enjoy.
 
I went to ATF.gov, but couldn't find any answers. There really should be some kind of online database for questions such as this. I plan to call my local ATF field division as well as a few local class 3 gun shops and ask them. So hopefully I can nail down any questions.
I will post my findings when I get them.
 
not sure why you need to call anybody(ESPECIALLY the ATF). You have two SBR'd lowers which is 1 more than necessary.

Have ALL the short uppers you want.

If you decide to sell the upper that matches your Form 1/4 you need to notify the ATF since you are making a "permanent" change.

If you retain said upper, no notification is necessary.

I have 3 short uppers and one SBR lower. I have had my Form checked twice and both times I had a completely different upper on it than what it was registered with. I said "yea, its in the safe at home" and that was that.

In the ATF computer system(never seen it, but from what I understand) its physically impossible to input more than 1 caliber or barrel length or OAL. So if you sent them a list of 4 or 5 uppers with various calibers, barrel lengths, OAL's, etc... they wouldnt be able to do anything with it anyway.

I dont buy what ducdodgers says either and if that is really the case I would venture there are 10's of thousands of people in the country who are breaking the law every day. I have NEVER heard of somebody getting in trouble for having lowers in their safe with no upper on them along with shorty uppers not on a lower as LONG as there was an SBR lower there too. Hell, I have never heard of ATF coming in and doing a compliance check on a private individual for just owning NFA weapons in the first place.
 
jsmythe said:
well i intend to call the class 3 gun shops first. lol. no need to trouble the atf if i don't have to.
Click to expand...

they most likely wont know shit either and I will guess you will get a different answer from each of them. Unless you have some pretty switched on SOT's in your area most dont know anymore than how to fill out a Form 4(and even that is a stretch in my experience).

Im going to throw a post up on Silencertalk and see what some of those guys say on the short uppers with non SBR'd lowers with no upper on them.
 
So what if you have a SBR upper while you are still waiting (I already forgot how many months) for your paperwork to come back? I have a non-SBR build as well. I get lots of different answers and depending on which ATF person or gun shop you talk to it changes.
 
werthless_one said:
So what if you have a SBR upper while you are still waiting (I already forgot how many months) for your paperwork to come back?
Click to expand...

That COULD be an issue with constructive intent, BUT the whole damn constructive intent things gets blown SO out of proportion IMO. I dont think there has really ever been anybody actually prosecuted for it when they were overall trying to be legal by registering the lower. Im sure there have been people prosecuted for it, but they were probably idiots and went out shooting their non-registered SBR while waiting on the stamp.

On issue's like that I personally chose to be overly cautious when I was waiting for my stamp for my lower to come back and didnt purchase my upper until then. Now that I have an SBR, if I do another one, I obviously wont be worried about it.
 
If you have an rifle lower without an approved form 1 or 4 that is a no no. If you have a pistol lower that would be okay.
 
rjacobs said:
That COULD be an issue with constructive intent, BUT the whole damn constructive intent things gets blown SO out of proportion IMO. I dont think there has really ever been anybody actually prosecuted for it when they were overall trying to be legal by registering the lower. Im sure there have been people prosecuted for it, but they were probably idiots and went out shooting their non-registered SBR while waiting on the stamp.

On issue's like that I personally chose to be overly cautious when I was waiting for my stamp for my lower to come back and didnt purchase my upper until then. Now that I have an SBR, if I do another one, I obviously wont be worried about it.
Click to expand...

If the paperwork didn't take so long to get back it wouldn't even be a problem.
 
When I built my SBRs, I sent a letter with my form explaining that the rifle would have various calibers and barrel lengths. I added this letter after talking to my examiner at the ATF.
 
Not a lawyer and can't vouch for accuracy of anything in the below; however, it has a letter purportedly from the ATF regarding this. I also don't have a dog in this, I just enjoy researching. See post #4

Caliber Conversions and the Law
 
You guys are talking about a government bureaucracy known as BATFE, who are rarely on the same sheet of music when it comes to FTB and the regional offices working out of the Federal Buildings or smaller municipalities.

Ask a technical question about anything gun-related, and you will receive as many answers from as many sources as you ask. An FFL/SOT can call his or her assigned field agents that do his inspections and get an answer that is different from FTB, then post his or her experience, while someone in another part of the country will get another answer. It's always been that way, and always will be.

They don't have, nor will they ever have the competence and leadership to make an intelligible, logical answer, because the whole premise of the organization is counter to our laws, and is staffed by bureaucrats, most of whom are not gun people. It is what it is. There is zero possibility of coming to a conclusion on what the ATF thinks or rules on anything.
 
What is the difference between a pistol lower & a rifle lower? Can you buy a new lower that is already registered as a pistol? I would like to build a pistol but I've heard so many different things I didn't know what was required to get a legal lower.
 
pipeinspector said:
What is the difference between a pistol lower & a rifle lower? Can you buy a new lower that is already registered as a pistol? I would like to build a pistol but I've heard so many different things I didn't know what was required to get a legal lower.
Click to expand...

ok a pistol lower is incapable of adding a stock. the lower is no different than a regular except you put on a pistol buffer tube and use a pistol system spring and buffer. you don't have to register those lowers unless your state requires pistol registration.
 
The ATF has changed its mind over "registered pistol" AR15 lowers as well, just like everything else they have "ruled" on.
 
in for any possible new info but what i was told for mine, by my sot was just 1 lower thats form 1'ed an i can have all the uppers i wanted.
 
Does anyone know why they take so long to get the paperwork and stamps back to you? It can't take 6 to 9 months just to process paperwork. My buddy waited 11 months on one of his SBR's paperwork and I'm going on 6 months myself.
 
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