Re: quick clot and celox question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JB Gleason</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't participate in on-line personal attacks so please accept that my disagreeing with the last two posters is not an attack on them. But bad information on an important topic is being put out and that needs to be corrected.
First, TBannister you are putting out incorrect information. When you mention the "OR" and debridement of wounds that leads me to believe you are a Surgeon or nurse. If you aren't, then you shouldn't be talking about things you don't know about. If you are a medical professional, then you need to do some CE time because you are flat wrong. EmergencyNrse, it sure sounds like you are a medical professional as well. "The majority of people have no need for this anyway." Really? Can you please tell me if I am in the majority or minority so I can know whether I need a medical kit or not? "Certainly not in a suburb/urban area. Best to leave it alone..." Leave what alone? Life threatening bleeding? How long does it take to exsanguinate (fancy doctor word for bleed to death) from a transected artery? We both know that is approx 4 minutes dependent on several factors. I guess all "suburb/urban area" locations are 4 minutes from injury site to trauma bay? I know my range isn't. "I don't even know of ANY use of the stuff by ALS responders. Wonder why that is...?" Seriously, there are hundreds of documented uses domestically and by DoD assets. Google is your friend. I know of several domestic agencies that carry hemostatics on every ambulance. NYPD ESU has had documented life saving uses for an example.
And the final one: "Get rid of it." Who tells someone with a viable, proven tool to get rid of it? For goodness sakes, a "I think there are better options" maybe but not "get rid of it".
Sorry if any of that came off too strong. Not trying to attack here but I think that one of the greatest things about Sniper's Hide is that people tend to stay in their lane. I have learned tons here about long range shooting (not my lane) by listening and not talking. As it so happens, this subject falls directly into my lane. I spent years as a special operations medic for several different organizations and have used hemostatic agents for the majority of that time in real world situations. I have participated in studies and training leading to advances in this technology. I have watched with interest this technologies growth into one of the greatest life saving tools available. I know PERSONALLY multiple persons who would not be with us today if not for this technology. I am not going to post my resume here but read on and judge for yourselves if I know what I am talking about or not.
In response to "+1000 it's rough to cut out the stuff in the OR and when it's used and should not have been it results in time and tissue loss that shouldn't have, plus it burns like the devil and can cause shock in rare cases." Your information is PARTIALLY correct but TEN YEARS OLD. The product you are referring to is the original granules. That product hasn't been manufactured for years. Yes, the stuff that isn't made anymore did get hot (the original formulation) but that was a trade off for life-saving results. That formulation isn't available anymore and the new gauze based products have "HEAT FREE" printed right on the packaging. The gauze doesn't have to be "cut out" of the wound anymore than any other normal gauze. There is no time or tissue loss associated with gauze based hemostatics. As far as it causing "shock", that's ridiculous and you shouldn't be saying stuff like that. It's just not true.
Now for some facts.
The Department of Defense did exhaustive (millions of your tax dollars spent) studies developing this technology. Quik Clot Combat Gauze is the selected hemostatic product of all branches of service. How often do all of the branches agree on a single product? M-16 platform, HMMWV, MRE's - not very often. This stuff works. Do you need it for every cut? Absolutely not. But when you need it you need it. This is like arguing about if you really need to carry a weapon concealed or not on a daily basis. Hey, statistics say you won't need that pistol. Who is going with that argument?
Gauze based hemostatics are the only way to go IMHO. The form factor is right for when you have adrenaline pouring out of your ears and someone's/your blood is pouring out onto the ground. Open package, stuff gauze into wound, apply direct pressure. Me likes easy when things are going bad. I used to tell my team when I trained them that I lose half my IQ points when the shooting starts and another 25% when someone gets critically injured.
Back to the OP's questions finally! I know, I know, I tend to carry on.
The three year expiration date on these products is the result of a FDA mandate and isn't set by the manufacturer. As it turns out, it is based upon how long the packaging maintains the sterile nature of its contents. Any flexible material allows some gas seepage. At some point enough exterior gas enters the packaging to render the contents "non-sterile" according to FDA guidelines. At that point the product is "expired". That being said, the real question is whether or not it still works. In the case of the Combat Gauze, the active ingredient is Kaolin which is an inert mineral. Meaning it will last hundreds of years since it is in essence a rock. BUT I don't want to be the guy using an "expired" product on someone. Pony up the $40 every couple of years. That being said, the FDA mandate is ludicrous since an open wound isn't sterile anyway. I would stuff goat dung in there if it will keep the patient alive. It's the surgeons problem to get it out (just kidding but one of my best buds is a trauma surgeon).
As to where to purchase. Technically these products are available to "Trained First Responders" or by prescription. You are going to get the longest dated life out of product bought through a distributor or the manufacturer. The reason you tend to see 1 year on the Ebay stuff is because guys are coming back from deployment and selling the stuff out of their IFAK. But if you aren't a "trained first responder" (police officer, EMT, First Aid class) and can't get your doc to write you a RX then Ebay may be your best bet.
LASTLY and very important. I just today got notice that the Chinese have finally gotten around to knocking off hemostatics. They are making a QuikClot ACS look alike (this isn't the gauze but a granule type substance contained in a mesh baggie). QuikClot ACS is still manufactured but isn't worth your time so don't sweat the knock off. Don't buy this stuff real or not. They have also knocked off a Chitosan Gauze product. This one looks exactly like the real thing. So your safest bet would be to stick to the Combat Gauze to avoid the fakes.
Wow! I have never written a post that long and am going to be seriously pissed if this thing disappears when I hit "submit". For any medical professionals I have offended out there (especially you EmergencyNrse), shoot me a PM and I can provide you some links to medical studies and resources if you are interested. Remember, I come in peace and just want the good info to get out there.
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Thanks for the info. I am a sheriffs deputy and I am on the sheriffs SRT team. Im not looking for something to put on little Timmys boo boo when he falls off his bike. Im just trying to put a few things in my tear off med pouch on my vest, just in case if I or one of my team members get shot or whatever then I can have something to help until that person can get removed from the area and to medical treatment. I have looked at the combat gauze and was planning on using that product. I have also been told by a few old school medics to carry a tampon or two to plug gun shot wounds.
