Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

[Sebben]

So let me give you a run down with whats going on maybe someone can help. The first trip to the range I fired 40 168gr FGMMs 50 magtech 150gr and 20 180gr Winchester just to see what it liked. Out of these I had 1 stove pipe. I didn't think anything of it because it was the magtech 150s. Being cheep ammo I figured it was something with the ammunition or maybe the spring was just breaking in.

After that my Magpul PRS came in the mail and I installed it with all DPMS buffer tube, LR-308 rifle length buffer spring and LR-308 buffer. The next few trips to the range I fired a total of 190 168gr FGMMs with 1 failure to feed where it mangled the round Like the one in the picture. Today I had 1 stove pipe and 2 failures to feed on 2 different types of ammunition and different mags. The Stove pipe was from the 168s FGMM in the Magpul Pmag and the FTF was from a Lake city 147gr in the Pof P25 mag and a 168gr FGMM in the P mag. Today I fired a total of 85 rounds and to have 3 failures is unacceptable. I can usually trouble shoot any consistent problems involving firearms but I am stumped on this one it just seems random to me... Maybe someone can help me out?

Along with this the brass ejection is erratic. Sometimes it will eject the same ammunition 10ft or just lay it on the table like you dropped it out of a bolt gun. Also I found out that it cycles without a suppressor with the gas plug turned on suppressed.

Here are pictures of the FTF brass.

There is a deep scratch on the case.

Deep dent in the neck.

Neck is bent to the point the bullet was easily removed by hand.

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

Sebben - I recall reading a fairly recent post where something like what you described was mentioned. IIRC, it had something to do with the newly mounted PRS stock and the buffer tube assembly. Sorry I can't provide you with the specific details, but I just glanced over it. If you search, hopefully you will be able to find the post. It's been within the last month or so. Good luck.

 

[RobertB]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

My spike tactical is way worse than that. I got 3K in the gun which pisses me the hell off. None of my bushmasters for less than a grand give me any trouble. I hope we can get this fixed. Mine is doing the same exact thing but more often. I will not have it.

 

[nfoley]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

Not sure what the problem is but I would go straight to POF (email) and let them know. I had a problem with mine initially, they sent me a fedex number (or maybe it was UPS, can't recall) so I didn't even have to pay shipping. And I had it back in about a week running great. Mine had an issue with timing. Good luck, let us know what happens.

 

[Sebben]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

Bump

 

[KillShot]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nfoley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure what the problem is but I would go straight to POF (email) and let them know. I had a problem with mine initially, they sent me a fedex number (or maybe it was UPS, can't recall) so I didn't even have to pay shipping. And I had it back in about a week running great. Mine had an issue with timing. Good luck, let us know what happens. </div></div>


What nfoley has stated above is your best course of action. Have you contacted POF yet?

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

That looks like a "bolt over base" failure to feed.
It happens when the bolt carrier group doesn't travel all the way rear due to insufficient cycle energy, some binding taking place, or some other drag.

Try firing one round with an empty magazine inserted.
Does the rifle lock the bolt carrier back on the last round?

 

[KillShot]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

I was also thinking it had to do with the Magpul PRS. When you installed the new stock, did you also swap out the spring and buffer? I ask because the Magpul PRS requires the use of a RIFLE LENGTH buffer and spring, specifically for use with the AR-10 platform.

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

Take a look at this thread...might not be your problem, then again, it might be.


http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2527955#Post2527955

 

[Sebben]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That looks like a "bolt over base" failure to feed.
It happens when the bolt carrier group doesn't travel all the way rear due to insufficient cycle energy, some binding taking place, or some other drag.

Try firing one round with an empty magazine inserted.
Does the rifle lock the bolt carrier back on the last round?
</div></div>

Yes the carrier locks back every time I haven't had a problem with that. Come to think of it. It happens closer to the end of a magazine.

Killshot. I do have the correct part as stated in the original post. I'll give POF a call here shortly.

 

[Sebben]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

Just talked to Cody at POF. Im going to send in my upper and hes going to take a look at it.

 

[KillShot]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

Awesome. Sorry to hear you're having these issues but I have no doubt they will rectify the issue and have it sent back promptly.

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sebben</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That looks like a "bolt over base" failure to feed.
It happens when the bolt carrier group doesn't travel all the way rear due to insufficient cycle energy, some binding taking place, or some other drag.

Try firing one round with an empty magazine inserted.
Does the rifle lock the bolt carrier back on the last round?
</div></div>

Yes the carrier locks back every time I haven't had a problem with that. Come to think of it. It happens closer to the end of a magazine.

Killshot. I do have the correct part as stated in the original post. I'll give POF a call here shortly. </div></div>

The pics that you took look exactly like a bolt over base failure to feed.
I've seen it a few times.
There are several causes of this.
If two rounds are jamming it up (one empty and one live) then it is likely an extractor power issue where the extractor lets go before the ejector flings it out.
If it is a single round jam where it crushes it into the barrel extension lugs then it may be that the round stack in the magazine is not advancing fast enough to keep up with the carrier (some variable is not keeping up with the others).
The gouge in the first picture looks like what happens when the bolt lug misses the base of the cartridge and grabs at the extractor groove, eventually digging in somewhere down the case.
It hops over and digs in to the side of the case ramming the bottle neck into the barrel extension (dent close to neck in pic #2).

There are many potential causes, lets start with the most likely.
You can fix this and be ever the wiser.

A description of what the jam looked like before clearing (in detail) would help.
I've been through many mal-functioning firearms, esp large frame AR's.
I have not been beat yet.

-The rifle whisperer

 

[Sebben]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

So here is my diagnosis after talking with Cody. Its either 2 or 3 things. The stove pipes are from a possible ejector/extractor issue not exactly sure what but Cody said there were some changes made with the 2011 models in that area. As for the bolt over base issue. It is also cycling with the gas plug on suppressed so that tells me there is too much gas. So thats either the holes are too big in the gas plug or I have a tight chamber. I had also noticed that there is gas residue in front of the gas block.

Hamilton. My bad I forgot to mention it was only 1 round getting jammed and not a double feed.

Also could my increased BCG speed be because of a overly strong buffer spring?

 

[cz777]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was also thinking it had to do with the Magpul PRS. When you installed the new stock, did you also swap out the spring and buffer? I ask because the Magpul PRS requires the use of a RIFLE LENGTH buffer and spring, specifically for use with the AR-10 platform. </div></div>i seen something like this before it was the stock mounting bolt a non venting one ... is the tube bent ?? look over all parts again right parts like buffer /spring ...

 

[Sebben]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cz777</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was also thinking it had to do with the Magpul PRS. When you installed the new stock, did you also swap out the spring and buffer? I ask because the Magpul PRS requires the use of a RIFLE LENGTH buffer and spring, specifically for use with the AR-10 platform. </div></div>i seen something like this before it was the stock mounting bolt a non venting one ... is the tube bent ?? look over all parts again right parts like buffer /spring ... </div></div>

Tube is straight the buffer slides freely, Buffer is DPMS LR-308, Spring is DPMS LR-308 and tube is DPMS rifle length. The screw for the PRS is the vented screw that it came with and the BCG clears the bolt catch with plenty of room to spare.

 

[nfoley]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

Sebben,
Let us know what they say. I am really curious cause I had a similar problem today with my POF at the range shooting some 168 FGMMs. I normally only shoot my handloads but bought a bunch of federal match just because the price was so good. I am not too concerned but curious having read your post.

 

[Archer762]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

I had a similar problem and it turned out my buffer tube wasn't on perfectly straight causing some extra friction. At first it would seem it was the bolt or extractor, so it didn't occur to me until I had exhausted every possible problem with the upper before I started looking at the lower...

 

[Sebben]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Archer762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a similar problem and it turned out my buffer tube wasn't on perfectly straight causing some extra friction. At first it would seem it was the bolt or extractor, so it didn't occur to me until I had exhausted every possible problem with the upper before I started looking at the lower... </div></div>

I don't think it's that because it has had these problems with both the milspec tube and the rifle length tube. Don't really see how you can put a buffer tube not straight but ok...

Also the fact that it cycles with the gas plug on S (suppressed) has me concerned.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

It sounds like its getting too much gas, as excessive bolt speed can cause what you're seeing. The functioning on suppresses when not suppressed using match ammo leads me to think that as well.

Its timing not spring. If you want to continue to play with it yourself you could buy a heavy buffer, or you could quit guessing and send it in.

Send it back as advised by POF. I'm not employed by them anymore, so I can't guarantee or speculate more than the next guy what's going to happen, but Cody will get you taken care of.

 

[problemchild]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

Does the brass land at a 3:30 position all in a neat pile?

 

[Sebben]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It sounds like its getting too much gas, as excessive bolt speed can cause what you're seeing. The functioning on suppresses when not suppressed using match ammo leads me to think that as well.

Its timing not spring. If you want to continue to play with it yourself you could buy a heavy buffer, or you could quit guessing and send it in.

Send it back as advised by POF. I'm not employed by them anymore, so I can't guarantee or speculate more than the next guy what's going to happen, but Cody will get you taken care of. </div></div>

Thanks Sobrbiker. Off to the UPS store we go!

 

[cyrekzz]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

Yeah - i have the same setup as far as the Magpul PRS - DPMS 308 Rifle length spring, DPMS 308 buffer tube, and buffer... and that wasn't my problem either - i sent mine back in and they fixed it - looked like they reamed out the chamber a little and put all new BCG in (mine had the old 2008 stuff in it). Now my rifle fires every time! I had this done in Dec of 2009.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

Hey Sebben-did you asend it in?

Also-something to note: the nitride heat treatment may sweat salts if there is a period of non-use when the rifle is new. This will sometimes cause the cartridges to stick enough to slow things down just enough to cause gremlins.

Running a chamber brush via a cordless drill on a length of rod to polish/clean the chamber is doable for those that aren't shy of such things. If the rifle is new and under warranty I suggest a trip back if indicated for any problems however.

 

[Sebben]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Sebben-did you asend it in?

Also-something to note: the nitride heat treatment may sweat salts if there is a period of non-use when the rifle is new. This will sometimes cause the cartridges to stick enough to slow things down just enough to cause gremlins.

Running a chamber brush via a cordless drill on a length of rod to polish/clean the chamber is doable for those that aren't shy of such things. If the rifle is new and under warranty I suggest a trip back if indicated for any problems however. </div></div>

Yeah I sent it back and talked to Cody again. He said they were getting to my rifle that day and it should ship out the next day which was yesterday. So I should get it back hopefully today or tomorrow. I have a shoot meet im going to up in gainsville GA on the 6th. I'll shoot him an Email to see what the problem was.

As for the salts. the upper was stamped 07/10 and I bought the gun in January of 2011. So I don't think it had much time to sit unless the barrel sat in the factory.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

That's five months unless my math ain't good no more.....

Doesn't look lie that's the problem with yours though, I was just tossing that out there because of the views the thread draws.

 

[redirt78]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Sebben-did you asend it in?

Also-something to note: the nitride heat treatment may sweat salts if there is a period of non-use when the rifle is new. This will sometimes cause the cartridges to stick enough to slow things down just enough to cause gremlins.

Running a chamber brush via a cordless drill on a length of rod to polish/clean the chamber is doable for those that aren't shy of such things. If the rifle is new and under warranty I suggest a trip back if indicated for any problems however. </div></div>Sobr, I will have a NP3'd POF308 with the older style Predator rail paid off soon. Do you recommend doing anything to the chamber before shooting it? Clean/polish/brush/etc? OR just shoot first? Would the "salts" if any, be visible?

Thanks

Good luck Sebben, hope they get yours sorted out for you.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

Not really visible. Th notride heat treatment is hard enough that you aren't going to hurt it, I like to take a patch with JP Bore paste or Flitz on it wrapped around an old chamber brush and run it in the chamber.

Or just shoot it and see what happens.


-sorry, didn't mean to start a hijack!

 

[Sebben]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not really visible. Th notride heat treatment is hard enough that you aren't going to hurt it, I like to take a patch with JP Bore paste or Flitz on it wrapped around an old chamber brush and run it in the chamber.

Or just shoot it and see what happens.


-sorry, didn't mean to start a hijack! </div></div>

This is not a hijack still on subject

About the nitride. The treated area is 68-70 rockwell hardness. That is as hard as tool steel. Really tough shit!

 

[Sebben]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

On June 7th I posted a thread about POF having good customer service. After I had gotten my upper back.Here. In that thread I said.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sebben</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I shot 100 rounds today. Its now short stroking...Guess I'll give Cody a call Monday. </div></div>

After talking to Cody he said for me to ship the entire rifle back to him. So I decided to wait for the reimbursement check for when I had sent the upper in, being that money is tight. It took a month and 2 phone calls and an E-mail to get the check for the shipping. In that time I had ordered a new buffer spring as I suspected it to be the issue. I have fired 6 rounds since the new spring and no FTFs/short strokes so I'm going this weekend to put 20 rounds thought it to see if the problem persists.

I have taken the PRS stock off and checked the rear screw to see if it was long, it wasn't, and to make sure nothing was obstructing the port. As I was looking this rifle over with a fine tooth comb I noticed some unusual wear patterns and major flaking of the NP3 coating and new nickle boron coating on the new 2011 bolt. Also the forward assist does not work after I got the rifle back which I had not noticed when I was shooting. I have put 500 rounds through this rifle. Here are pictures of the wear marks into the aluminum. Do you think POF should also fix this problem?

Oh and one more thing. When the rifle had the carbine buffer,tube and spring it appears the rubber part of the buffer had collapsed causing the BCG to slam in to the lower receiver and carbine tube denting both.I had sent POF an Email when I had installed the PRS stock thinking I had done something wrong and POF replied that those dents were common after installing the PRS. I have just come to notice the dents on the Carbine length tube. SO the reciver was damaged BEFORE I put the PRS on. I'll include pictures of this as well.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Bolt over base failure to feed.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Used an LED flashlight to light the inside of the upper so you can see that the Forward assist does not engage the grooves of the bolt carrier.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Flaking of new the new bolts Nickel Boron coating on the bolt lugs after only 100 rounds.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Deep gouge in the upper.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Deep wear mark. You can feel this with you finger.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">This is the worst wear mark. It looks like the coating was just peeled off.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Dented carbine tube.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Dented lower receiver.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">
Rifle Length buffer on the left and carbine buffer on the right. You can see the cracking of the rubber on the carbine buffer. </span>

 

[aojones]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

I am having the same problems with my POF .308 with a 20" barrel, no PRS stock just the stock one. I think POF just slaps the together and sends them out to the dealers without test firing them........

 

[Sebben]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aojones</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am having the same problems with my POF .308 with a 20" barrel, no PRS stock just the stock one. I think POF just slaps the together and sends them out to the dealers without test firing them........ </div></div> I don't think mine was test fired either. The gas system was clean when I took it out of the box.

 

[Edgewater]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

Sebben, I just sent my P308 upper back to POF. It has just over 320 rounds through it and is having problems that are similar to yours. Although, my gouges and wear marks inside the receiver are much worse. As rounds are being stripped out of the mag, the bullets and cases are being scratched and gouged also. Upon ejection I am getting the same dent in the case shoulder plus deep scratches on the necks. I have yet to have a failure to feed or eject but the above mentioned problems were enough. Oh, and my ejection port door pin kept coming out and moving forward under recoil causing the spring and door to fall off. If you pm me your email I will get you pics of my receiver gouges. Not bashing POF, I also have a P415 that I have had for a few years and I am very pleased with it. I hope POF will make things right. Good luck.

 

[KillShot]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

I love my P308 and although I've not had any issues with it, seeing the above images and reading what's going on really makes me apprehensive about purchasing another POF. These rifles are anything but cheap and in my opinion, they should run like a top fuel dragster for what you pay and how long you may have to wait to receive it. Problems like this should NOT be happening and if their quality control was at the level that it should be, this wouldn't be happening.

This is all very disappointing to see and read. I hope you guys get things sorted out in a timely manner.

 

[redirt78]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

Yeah I hate seeing all this, hope they straighten things out for you guys. I hope mine doesn't have all these issues.

 

[Sebben]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

I just received my rifle back from POF. The problem was that my Bolt carrier was out of spec and was tearing apart the gun from the inside out. So they put in a new upper, new barrel, new BCG, new gas block. The only thing they kept was the rail. going to go to the range here in the next few days ill let you know how it runs.

Cody said that one of there team shooters shot my rifle with a Leupold MK4 on it and got sub MOA groups. So I'm not to worried about how it will work out this time. I'm just excited I get to go and shoot my rifle!

 

[Sebben]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redirt78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah I hate seeing all this, hope they straighten things out for you guys. I hope mine doesn't have all these issues. </div></div>

I think that most of them are fixed in the 2011 models.

 

[jdcaples]

Re: Random stove pipes and FTFs in POF

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sebben</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think that most of them are fixed in the 2011 models. </div></div>

For 2011+ manufactured POF P308s, the short story: try a different magazine if you're just having failure to feeds and not component damage as depicted earlier in the thread.

The longer story follows.

I apologize for reanimating an older topic, but I was experiencing failure to feed issues with my fresh, out of the box POF P308 built in Oct of 2011.

I field stripped the rifle, cleaned and lubed the bolt carrier assembly, performed what function check with snap caps. I noted no functional problems with snap caps after a dozen cycles.

During live fire at the range, I determined that lubrication of the bolt carrier assembly reduced the number of failure to feeds, but did not eliminate them with the factory-supplied magazine.

I purchased another Magpul magazine, identical to the one that came with the rifle. New magazine: no failures out of 20 rds. Original (included with rifle purchase) magazine: two failures out of 20 rds.

I’ve determined that the failures to feed followed the magazine that came with the rifle.

I believe it's significant I didn’t have the problem with new Magpul magazine with an unlubricated and lubricated bolt carrier assembly.

I haven’t magazine swapped springs, followers or housings of the to isolate the offending component in the first magazine. I also haven't tried a completely dry bolt carrier assembly yet.

I don’t know that I will go to that effort to swap magazine parts to isolate an offending component.

I may, in fact, just toss the magazine that came with the rifle and run a little lube for 500 rounds or so just to "break it in" then try it dry.

As an aside: I don’t feel that I need to go after the seller or the manufacturer (POF) for a replacement magazine.

Not seeking a replacement magazine is my personal decision.

Coaxing another magazine from a business isn’t worth my time.

Regardless, I know that many shooters would not let this go and that the cost of a new magazine is not trivial for everyone; that the principle is not trivial for everyone. Again, this is my personal decision.

Further, I haven’t used a lube-remover like gun scrubber or non-chlorinated brake cleaner to verify the “runs without lube” claim by POF.

I love the rifle. Using the new mag and a little lube (eezox) results in reliable function, rapid or slow fire.

I understand this info won’t necessarily help someone save any money, but I do sincerely hope this information helps someone save some time.

-Jon