Range Report Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

[LawnMM]

Here is the target and log page with conditions and other information. I welcome any criticism and critique that might be offered. I'm new to all this and the more information I get the more I have to use to improve.

This was at a range in Bailey, CO on a gorgeous day in the mountains for early January. I tried to do some self diagnosing of my shots as reflected in the notes. I believe the vertical variances were mainly due to inconsistent recoil management. I plan to do more dry fire practice and refine my NPA position. The horizontal movement was due to some pretty challenging wind conditions, especially for someone with limited experience.

I've been searching and reading threads on wind calls, reading the wind, and how to adjust for it. I need to do better with the calls on the shots. I thought that was mainly for 'where are the crosshairs when the shot breaks' as opposed to where did you see them throughout the shot. Leads me to a question. If you fire and after the recoil impulse say the crosshairs are a tad low and to the left, how does that translate to your 'call' of the shot. Do you assume it will hit where the crosshairs were last or somewhere between point of aim and where they wind up post recoil?

Point of aim was dead center on the read for all shots, save the holds on the shots indicated. The wind conditions were changing a lot on this course. Its the second time we (my buddy and I) wend shooting there. We held any wind adjustments this time as we learned the pitfalls of trying to dial wind corrections last time around. It changes too fast to dial and fire.

I found it interesting how obvious some of the problems were in the log book at the end of the day. I would hold for a given wind condition but if I fired right after it dropped, and I didn't notice the change, the bullet landed where I was aiming, instead of where I intended to put it with the wind hold.

I welcome all comments. Thanks guys.

Rich

 

[vman]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

tag

seems you have picked up one areas that might be improved which means your on the right path.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

The wind at this range is quite a challenge. Its blowing in different directions, at different times, at different points moving toward the target.

I was reading one of the many wind threads and Lowlight was commenting how difficult it is to actually get an accurate read on the wind over long distance in field conditions. I believe his answer was to adjust your settings for what the wind was doing at the shooter, as it was the most accurately measured, and had the longest time to affect the flight path. I plan to work that into my next range session at that range. I also noticed I can probably squeeze another 100 yards out of the range if I move the target back to where the berm is, which is sitting probably 100 yards behind the pit and target frames.

Wind is damn tough at times. We were trying to get a read on it, and the problem is we could often see it, we could see mirage, we could even take a gander at the speed. How in the hell do you manage to determine which way its moving? Its one thing if you see the gust kick up and see which way vegetation or flags move as it starts. If you look out and see a tree swaying how do you know if its swaying left to right or right to left? I think thats something we normally figure out based on feeling the wind on our skin, but down range that's a whole other ballgame. That may have been Lowlight's point.

I'm also in the process of phasing out the 168gr FGMM ammo. I bought a case pretty cheap a while back and I've about shot it up. Then I have a case of Southwest 175s that I plan to convert over to for the enhanced ballistic performance. Especially as I progress to the 800 yard mark and beyond.

Lots of views but not much commentary here...seriously guys I'm new and have all of a few hundred rounds experience. Let me have it. The more critiquing the better.

 

[sinister]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

Perfect example of the value of a data book.

The benefit of a good spotter with a quality spotting scope is the fact he's supposed to be keeping up with the winds as well, letting you know when you have gusts and let-offs. You shouldn't have to dial anything as much as compensate with shades and favors.

The high and low shots thus come down to shooter error while winds are on the spotter.

Good shooting in full-value winds, by the way. Nice job.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

Thanks. I was pleased they were all hits on the target at that range, less pleased at the inconsistency shot to shot. Though I suppose thats part of being inexperienced.

I'm still fidling with the stock settings, the cheek weld and length of pull adjustments in particular. I think I have it pretty dialed in and I noticed a huge improvement in stability and my own ability to manage recoil with the AICS over the HS stock that was on the rifle at the same range the last trip. 7-8 out of 10 shots I never lost sight of the target through the recoil impulse.

I think I'm still trying to find the sweet spot as far as consistent pressure into the shoulder versus crowding the rifle and I think thats why I'm seeing some of the vertical discrepencies shot to shot.

I'm continually amazed at how nice the Bushnell FFP spotter performs for the price. Its really a nice scope. I agree my spotter needs a little work on communication with regard to wind conditions. I like switching off with a buddy because it lets you cross train as the shooter and spotter so you both have a good understanding of each other's role. Its easier to understand spotter corrections if you've given them yourself.

That said I'm trying to up his knowledge on using the mil reticle for corrections and what to look for with regard to wind.

 

[vman]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

Which Bushnell spotter is that which your refering to? The Excursion?

I think that for a 600 yard target with choppy winds, and (no offence here) your lack of experience with wind reading... your shooting is good

Im still learning wind myself, and its a pain in the ass especially with winds blowing in multiple directions. Sometimes the range i shoot at has swirling winds. Between 0 to 400 yards I have seen mind boggeling winds. Annoys the crap out of me because i dont have a spotter, and the times that I do they dont know what their doing.

Also, your using factory ammo... not bad considering. If you want screamer groups you tend to see them more often from handloads that have had an experienced handloader make them.

Regarding the wind again, I like to look at the wind near me make an initial estimation for hold over based on that and then modify according to the winds between and near the target. If there is only wind near me, and none at the target I will reduce my amount of hold over. Eventually you get a feel for what on the fly adjustments need to be made. I do not dial in for wind.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

Yes. I bought one of the Front Focal Plane Excursion's with the Mil Dot reticle so shooter and spotter could speak the same language with regard to holds and adjustments based on what they see in front of their eyeball.

I appreciate the compliments. I have an element of perfectionist in me so I know the rifle and the driver are capable of more. Just need to do the legwork to make it happen.

We shot using holds exclusively on that trip and it worked out pretty well. Its sort of an educated exercise in guestimation but it works out pretty well, suprisingly. If you set up a hold based on whats happening at your firing position and see an opposing wind you reduce your hold a bit? I assume you favor it a bit more if you see a wind pushing in the same direction as the wind at your position, right?

Is there a formula for how much you add or reduce or is it mainly a feel you develop with experience? It seems like the conditions at the shooter are science and what happens down range is more of the art/voodoo I've been reading about.

 

[vman]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

Well, think of it this way

The bullet travels in the direction that you point it. So if you measure or guess the wind at your location and hold under the assumption the wind is the same for the entire flight of the bullet, then you will hit your target.

But if that wind is not present to push it back on target it will simply stray.

You will begin to get a feel for it, but unlike everything else in this sport, it comes from hard earned experience.

The ones with all of the records are the best wind readers

 

[skinnypitt]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

Vman is right it is really just a case of experience, I say this because i am still learning. The best learning experience for me at reading wind has been shooting F-class 1000 yds. I get the hands on watching flags, mirage boil-left-right, feel, wind meter and even more important i think is getting to talk to all the guys out there with more experience. I am yet to find one that is not willing to give me tips. Also, you cant beat immediate feedback on shot placement. That alone is worth the small entry fee...60 shots with someone marking every shot...priceless!

by the way, what was the wind speed...I couldn't read the card?

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

I want to get into some competition stuff this spring/summer when it warms up again for those very reasons.

I have the wind marked 3-5mph full value from left to right. After some reading and comparisons at home that may not have been correct. The wind is nuts at that range. I would get pretty strong gusts from my 6:00 at times, which were disregarded as no value.

Then we would see right to left full value wind at roughly 3-5mph based on tree and grass movement out at the target position. The wind I have marked was based on the mirage but after checking a chart when I got home it looks like that mirage angle may be more indicative of a 5-8mph wind that 3-5mph. I base the left to right on the waves being pushed to the right by the wind. In truth it was easier to read the mirage there on the previous trip. The wind is quite a mess there but I like the range for that reason. Harder it is the better I'll get at adjusting for it.

I tried to measure the wind at the targets for confirmation but the wind had died off a lot by the time we were wrapping up. Measured 1.5-2mph with the kestrel. Got about 1.5 or less at the 450yd mark and I don't think I bothered at 600 as I wasn't feeling much of anything at that position. I have a target from 450yds I can post also with a corresponding log page.

 

[skinnypitt]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

looking at a ballistics table for 168BTHP, 2700fps, .505BC, it looks a 5mph wind would give you around 15 inches of movement. Looking at your target it looks like you only have about +/- 6 inches so your measurement of 2.5 to three mph wind appears more correct based on the shooting.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinnypitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">looking at a ballistics table for 168BTHP, 2700fps, .505BC, it looks a 5mph wind would give you around 15 inches of movement. Looking at your target it looks like you only have about +/- 6 inches so your measurement of 2.5 to three mph wind appears more correct based on the shooting. </div></div>

Doubt im getting 2700fps out of my shorty 20" barrel but at altitude its possible. I need a chronograph. Its on my list! Need to put rifle specs in my profile too.

 

[MALLARD]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

what kind of scope are you using ? are you using a factory barrel ? bedded ? are you using a level ?

you were using a front and rear rest right ?

i dont know if i would blame the wind for those 4 rounds thrown to the left ( 9oclock )

thats like 6in drift or more , 2-3mph wouldnt cuase that , it would have had to gust up to 7mph or more to get 6-10in worth of drift at 600y. You would have noticed the change in speed i think.

but you got a low m/v , so , its possible , im not sure

you should chrony the loads to see whats going on , then try and isolate your problems.

to many things could be causing that type of group

how did you range the target? how did you get a zero ? did you use a ballistics program or did you fire and adjust ?

was your gun fouled before you shot that group ? or was it fouling while you shot it ?

im sorry , im probably not of much help , i think you need to start isolating things to figure this out ( you'll probably never get a no wind day , i never have) , so you would have to look into handloading , a better scope or match barrel.

overall you shot pretty good i think. I would think your group size would cut in half if you got a high dollar scope and match rifle , maybe in 6.5 or something.

your doing well though

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

-what kind of scope are you using ? Nightforce F1
-are you using a factory barrel ? Yes, its produced a 1/4 MOA group at 100, sadly not at my own hands, I can only eek 1/2 out of it
-bedded ? It was bedded on the previous stock, it now sits in an AICS, I've managed 1/2 MOA @ 100 with it, and was on the way to 1/4 and I tanked the third shot of the test group - totally my fault
-are you using a level ? Yes. The vortex offset.

-you were using a front and rear rest right ? Yes, Harris bipod in the front, red tac bag in the rear.

i dont know if i would blame the wind for those 4 rounds thrown to the left ( 9oclock )

thats like 6in drift or more , 2-3mph wouldnt cuase that , it would have had to gust up to 7mph or more to get 6-10in worth of drift at 600y. You would have noticed the change in speed i think.

but you got a low m/v , so , its possible , im not sure

you should chrony the loads to see whats going on , then try and isolate your problems.

to many things could be causing that type of group

**I would agree. Its hard, especially at extended range, to determine shooter error from environmental input, at least for a noobie like me. I want to chronograph my stuff, I'm probably going to purchase one next so I can get a tighter hold on what my ammunition is doing out of my rig. Its on the list!


-how did you range the target? There is a 600yd berm and it was verified with a laser rangefinder.
-how did you get a zero ? did you use a ballistics program or did you fire and adjust ? Fire and adjust till it was consistently shooting close enough to bulls eye at 100 that changing scope settings just moved the bullet up and down or left and right of POA. The range I use for this has berms on all sides as it is inside a state park surrounded by city/residential area. Probably doesn't eliminate wind but I have a hard time believing anything worth sweating makes it over the berm and down into the firing lanes.

was your gun fouled before you shot that group ? Fouled.
or was it fouling while you shot it ? I'm sure it was getting worse!

im sorry , im probably not of much help , i think you need to start isolating things to figure this out ( you'll probably never get a no wind day , i never have) , so you would have to look into handloading , a better scope or match barrel.

overall you shot pretty good i think. I would think your group size would cut in half if you got a high dollar scope and match rifle , maybe in 6.5 or something.

your doing well though [/quote]

I might get into a 6.5 or something with some extra oomph in the future. Right now I want to get a good hold on the basics with a rig thats got relatively cheaper ammo. I would like to get into handloading as well and will probably start gathering the items necessary as the year progresses. I would like to have that up and running this summer. I appreciate the comments!

 

[Good]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

Playing with JBM Ballistics Calculator for the following 168g bthp Berger and the 208g AMAX using published BC data. The goal here is to notice the ballistic coefficient difference in performance at 500m-1km and is for illustrational purposes only. The speed listed for the 168 is a realistic 2700fps, and the speed for the 208g is 2600fps as firsthand we are getting a little above that with a friend's .308 and the 208g AMAXs. Notice at 600m, the 168g has 17.4" wind drift with a 5mph wind at 90*. The 208g has 12.6. At 1000m the 168 has 56.8" where the 208g has 39.4".

High BC is where it's at. The high BC bullets give you a better chance at hitting your target under varied conditions.

168:

Trajectory
Input Data
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.473 G1 Caliber: 0.308 in
Bullet Weight: 168.0 gr

Muzzle Velocity: 2700.0 ft/s Distance to Chronograph: 10.0 ft

Sight Height: 0.75 in Sight Offset: 0.00 in
Zero Height: 0.00 in Zero Offset: 0.00 in
Windage: 0.000 MOA Elevation: 0.000 MOA
Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg Cant Angle: 0.0 deg

Wind Speed: 5.0 mph Wind Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Speed: 0.0 mph Target Angle: 0.0 deg
Target Height: 12.0 in

Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 0.0 % Altitude: 3000.0 ft

Vital Zone Radius: 5.0 in

Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: Yes Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
Mark Sound Barrier Crossing: No Include Extra Rows: No
Column 1 Units: 1.00 in Column 2 Units: 1.00 MOA
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data
Elevation: 3.257 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA

Atmospheric Density: 0.06998 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1104.9 ft/s

Maximum PBR: 296 m Maximum PBR Zero: 250 m
Range of Maximum Height: 133 m Energy at Maximum PBR: 1747.4 ft•lbs

Sectional Density: 0.253 lb/in²
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(m) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
500 -74.7 -13.0 11.6 2.0 1830.8 1.657 1250.1 0.738 0.0 0.0
600 -120.1 -17.5 17.4 2.5 1680.3 1.521 1053.0 0.925 0.0 0.0
700 -180.3 -22.5 24.6 3.1 1539.8 1.394 884.3 1.129 0.0 0.0
800 -258.0 -28.2 33.6 3.7 1411.0 1.277 742.6 1.352 0.0 0.0
900 -356.7 -34.6 44.3 4.3 1295.8 1.173 626.3 1.594 0.0 0.0
1000 -480.1 -41.9 56.8 5.0 1196.4 1.083 533.9 1.858 0.0 0.0

16/01/11 13:31, JBM/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

208g:

500 -73.9 -12.9 8.5 1.5 1961.3 1.775 1776.3 0.726 0.0 0.0
600 -116.6 -17.0 12.6 1.8 1845.2 1.670 1572.2 0.899 0.0 0.0
700 -171.5 -21.4 17.6 2.2 1733.8 1.569 1388.1 1.082 0.0 0.0
800 -240.3 -26.2 23.7 2.6 1627.5 1.473 1223.1 1.277 0.0 0.0
900 -324.8 -31.5 31.0 3.0 1526.9 1.382 1076.5 1.486 0.0 0.0
1000 -427.1 -37.3 39.4 3.4 1432.5 1.297 947.6 1.708 0.0 0.0

You have a boatload of cash in your setup. It only makes sense to shoot the best ammo you can get. I suggest investing in a reloading setup and working from there. Something cool about that is all the load developement will also aid in making you a better shooter.

If you aren't ready for that, find someone who will hand load for you if you pay them a little. I load all my own stuff, but there is a local guy that loads for a bunch of other local guys in my area.

My friend shoots a basic bone stock Rem 700 vss left hand .308 and he shot a couple 5" groups at 750yds the other day in gusty 10mph winds with these 208s over R17 powder. The winds were unpredictable, but the high BC helps to overcome it.

It gets interesting at 10mph. The windage is 78.8" for the 208g where the 168 is 113.7". The 208g has about 4.6" less drop at 1km, and is going 236.1fps faster (1432.5 vs the 168g's 1196.4)

BC my friend, BC... BTW, your shooting is good for that distance and factory ammo, but your rig screams for handloads.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

I am definitely going to get into handloading. Just have to put the cash together. I have some money in my rig, but i didnt buy it all at once and im still paying that scope off at 0%.

Handloads are the next step. If that doesnt help i may go the rebarreling route if options on 260 improve.

 

[Good]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

I'm totally not saying the ammo you're using can't do the job at 600 or even a thousand yards and most of the guys on this site and in this thread could shoot insane groups with the ammo, I'm just saying the higher BC helps us that aren't the greatest at reading wind shoot better at extended ranges, learning on the way.

Good shooting friend.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

Its ok i know what ya meant

Edited to add i have since used the last of my case of 168 FGMM and have rezeroed for my case of southwest 175s!

 

[vman]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

good man

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

I'm gonna read up on required gear for handloading and try to start squirreling some money away for that later this year. Might toss a longer barrel on my rifle but I will mess with JBM a bit first. I want to see if the extra barrel length is worth the cost at altitude. Need a chronograph so I can get an idea what kind of performance I'm getting out of the 20" up in the mountains at 8k+

 

[vman]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

Handloading is imo almost as good as shooting itself.

You will be amazed at how much accuracy you can squeeze out of a rifle by handloading.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Range Report - 600yds - Comments/Critiques Welcome

I'm looking forward to it. It seems fun. Just gotta do some reading over on the reloading forums and get my knowledgebase pumped up a bit on the subject.