Range session: Hits on target vs ammo cost

[theLBC]

there is going to be a limited return. why pay more for .23 moa instead of .25 moa?
do you miss a lot? i suppose maybe it would give you a good return.

for me, no such thing. my rifle likes 175gr smk. period.
others can shoot <.5 moa with their rifles and fgmm. i have not shot better than .59 with my rifle, so i assume the limitation is me and my rifle.

 

[Steel head]

there is going to be a limited return. why pay more for .23 moa instead of .25 moa?
do you miss a lot? i suppose maybe it would give you a good return.

for me, no such thing. my rifle likes 175gr smk. period.
others can shoot <.5 moa with their rifles and fgmm. i have not shot better than .59 with my rifle, so i assume the limitation is me and my rifle.

So true.
A wind and skill advantage far Trumps a bit more accuracy.

 

[brianf]

Relative to what? If you’re asking whether people would pay more for more hits, you have to a better job of define “more” so that it means the same thing to everyone.

You may have (in your mind) asked the question you wanted to ask but framed it poorly based on the responses you’re getting. You’re further tripping over yourself by using subjective terms like “significantly more” which means different things to different people.

I empirically grounded your question so that it’s actually answerable and where people’s answers would be directly comparable but you’re not looking for an objective analysis.

You’re engaged a confirmation bias exercise. You want to see what % of the Hide is aligned with your thinking on this particular question/issue.

Nothing wrong with all that, you aren’t hurting anyone.

It is what it is.

Carry on.

Last one and then please don’t de rail the thread.

reason I didn’t put dollars

I shoot factory 300 Norma at any price I find in the net from 5-7$ a shot.

if I could pay 15-20$ a shot for 75% better hit rate at 1 mile I would.

now when I say that and shoot 30-40 rounds a range day that’s more than some people’s rifle cost.

so instead of calling people frugal/poor/ etc I’m trying to gauge a feeling which is not quantifiable without a very long initial post

and long initial posts go nowhere.

members only reply to the last post on the last page and usually that is not what the OP was about.

and truthfully I don’t even want posts or explanations I’d rather members choose from the available options and post “done”

I didn’t ask why …just would you.

 

[brianf]

there is going to be a limited return. why pay more for .23 moa instead of .25 moa?
do you miss a lot? i suppose maybe it would give you a good return.

for me, no such thing. my rifle likes 175gr smk. period.
others can shoot <.5 moa with their rifles and fgmm. i have not shot better than .59 with my rifle, so i assume the limitation is me and my rifle.

Would you pay more for .15 moa (not going to take it to a BR contest all theory)

 

[brianf]

All bullshit aside not many here buying box ammo from anyone for anything other than 22lr and the occasional fudd gun.

Not to sure about that.
there are more than a few guys on the hide with a few bucks in their wallet.

 

[nn8734]

Last one and then please don’t de rail the thread.

reason I didn’t put dollars

I shoot factory 300 Norma at any price I find in the net from 5-7$ a shot.

if I could pay 15-20$ a shot for 75% better hit rate at 1 mile I would.

now when I say that and shoot 30-40 rounds a range day that’s more than some people’s rifle cost.

so instead of calling people frugal/poor/ etc I’m trying to gauge a feeling which is not quantifiable without a very long initial post

and long initial posts go nowhere.

members only reply to the last post on the last page and usually that is not what the OP was about.

and truthfully I don’t even want posts or explanations I’d rather members choose from the available options and post “done”

I didn’t ask why …just would you.

How do you know what exceeds “most people’s” cost? You have this data in hand and ready to post up?

Did I call you or anyone else a “poor”? If so, show me where in this thread I did that.

Did I say you asked “why”? If so show me where in the thread i said that.

I reload for my 300 Norma at the cost of $1.73 per round and it out shoots all the factory ammo I’ve tried at $5-$7 per round. So no, I wouldn’t pay more because I don’t have to.

You don’t control what other members do and what/how/when they choose to reply.

if you don’t like where the thread is going, delete it.

 

[brianf]

How do you know what exceeds “most people’s” cost? You have this data in hand and ready to post up?

Did I call you or anyone else a “poor”? If so, show me where in this thread I did that.

Did I say you asked “why”? If so show me where in the thread i said that.

I reload for my 300 Norma at the cost of $1.73 per round and it out shoots all the factory ammo I’ve tried at $5-$7 per round. So no, I wouldn’t pay more because I don’t have to.

You don’t control what other members do and what/how/when they choose to reply.

if you don’t like where the thread is going, delete it.

Or just move along like adults would instead of arguing your point which the OP didn’t ask for.

 

[theLBC]

Would you pay more for .15 moa (not going to take it to a BR contest all theory)

you mean ammo that would actually make me a better shooter, i suppose so.
see, i shoot 7.62 because i am not in the make it as easy as possible camp.
i don't shoot free throws with a girl's basketball either.
i am a poor boomer than wants to make the most of cheap available ammo, ball or match.

 

[TxWelder35]

Not quite sure how to answer.

im not going to pay $2/round for match ammo. I’ll go find another hobby, I’m too poor for all that. My reloads are just as good if not better than any factory ammo and I’m under 60c per round with a 140 hybrid. I’ll pay the extra for good Lapua/Berger bullets.

same with 223. I’m not going to pay $1.50 per round for fgmm or mk262 but I will handload with a 77smk for the same price as m193 was pre rona

inaccurate guns are infuriating.

 

[nn8734]

Or just move along like adults would instead of arguing your point which the OP didn’t ask for.

Once Again, you have ZERO control over what other members do and what/when they choose to post and in what threads or forums they choose to post in.

I closed my above post with “carry on”. That should have been sufficient of a hint for you to break contact but you kept coming back for more. Quoting and responding to my post makes me think you want to continue the conversation.

If you don’t, simply stop responding to me. Just don’t think you can control where i post.

I’ll give you a second chance: Carry on.

 

[brianf]

I won’t quote you this time…you win

 

[Im2bent]

By the way why isn't take the time to load your own a choice?

 

[JakeM]

It isn’t just about hits. If your ammo is inconsistent, you can’t gather accurate data. Meaning that your range trip was worthless. Now you’re out, gas, ammo, time, and barrel life, depending on how hot the load is you’re running.

 

[Maxduty]

I didn't read everything posted above. The bottom line is trigger time is training time. The less time spent behind the rifle, the less your body and mind remembers what it's supposed to do. You don't get pecs by doing 3 pushups a week. You won't be competitive shooting 10 rounds a session. The scenario you just described is every range two weeks before hunting season.

 

[theLBC]

I didn't read everything posted above. The bottom line is trigger time is training time. The less time spent behind the rifle, the less your body and mind remembers what it's supposed to do. You don't get pecs by doing 3 pushups a week. You won't be competitive shooting 10 rounds a session. The scenario you just described is every range two weeks before hunting season.

he's shooting out a mile.

 

[Maxduty]

he's shooting out a mile.

If he can hit 10 rounds every time at a mile only shooting once every so many weeks or so, he's in the top three in the world. He doesn't need to shoot more than one or two rounds anyway.

 

[spife7980]

I wouldn’t pay a penny more than I am having to right now. This is a dumb thread.

 

[acudaowner]

plinking I set a goal of what I want to do usually 3 center hits at 300 - 600 yards to verify dope , if testing powders I shoot 5 round groups instead of 10 have been trying to make that 3 mostly to see of I am getting the speeds I am looking for and if they print a group close enough to make me happy if they do then I go back and try 10 or 20 to get dope out to 600 . I try and keep all my charges to 42 gr of powder to stretch out what little I have , but that did not really work with all the powders . and either did me trying to bring 400 rounds and only shoot 40 but that's what I try to do to limit how much I shoot at one time at the range per day . good luck how ever you decide to do it , oh and a lot of dry firing while in between shots and cooling . have not slowed down really at all just plan better making better use of range time .

 

[Mike Casselton]

Would you pay 30% more again for better Ammo?

One thing, I think hasn't been factored into the equation.
Regardless what people spend on accurate rifles and optics. You can put the best equipment and ammunition into people's hands. Some people suck at shooting.

30%, 50% 88% better accuracy is wasted on them even if they have the best of the best in their hands.

Oh, they'll buy the ammo. Shit, why not, they can afford it and they may even luck into a few more hits (Xs), but they'll never be good or decent shooters because they fail to practice or learn new and better techniques.

I think these guys are your target customers.



Take golf for example. My clubs were decent when I bought them 12 years ago.

Rifle-wise, they would equate to a 700 BDL with a Vari-×-3 Leupold back then.
Could I have bought better clubs?
Could I have better clubs now?
Yes of course.

Would they do me any good?
Maybe, but in reality, probably not really.

The why.
I don't practice. I play once or twice a year, so I don't have any reason to upgrade.

I don't try to buy success.

Take my neighbor for example. He has two Mercedes, a hopped up golf cart and he just bought new clubs two months ago.
He still sucks because he thought he could BUY his game instead of learning and practicing it.

There are plenty of people around who think success comes in the form of purchasing power.

The majority of others know that success is earned through hard work and practice.

The former are your target audience.
The latter are the people that make your products work as advertised.

 

[brianf]

By the way why isn't take the time to load your own a choice?

Load your own or purchase it’s a question of increased cost in general no matter who does it

 

[brianf]

plinking I set a goal of what I want to do usually 3 center hits at 300 - 600 yards to verify dope , if testing powders I shoot 5 round groups instead of 10 have been trying to make that 3 mostly to see of I am getting the speeds I am looking for and if they print a group close enough to make me happy if they do then I go back and try 10 or 20 to get dope out to 600 . I try and keep all my charges to 42 gr of powder to stretch out what little I have , but that did not really work with all the powders . and either did me trying to bring 400 rounds and only shoot 40 but that's what I try to do to limit how much I shoot at one time at the range per day . good luck how ever you decide to do it , oh and a lot of dry firing while in between shots and cooling . have not slowed down really at all just plan better making better use of range time .

Thanks but this isn’t a skill set question or a training question, just a exercise in theory

 

[brianf]

It isn’t just about hits. If your ammo is inconsistent, you can’t gather accurate data. Meaning that your range trip was worthless. Now you’re out, gas, ammo, time, and barrel life, depending on how hot the load is you’re running.

Thanks but consistency equates to hits so it’s kind of the same boat

 

[brianf]

Also, thanks to all that voted so far (41)

keep it coming.

 

[b6graham]

Isn't that why we reload? Better ammo at a cost savings over premium off the shelf ammo? So how many switched to rolling their own for this very reason? Better ammo more hits same or less money?

I think he's also making the point of
Forster Press
Chargemaster
RCBS hand prime

Versus

Zero
Autotrickler
Primal Right CPS

 

[brianf]

I think he's also making the point of
Forster Press
Chargemaster
RCBS hand prime

Versus

Zero
Autotrickler
Primal Right CPS

makes sense

thanks

 

[Im2bent]

I think he's also making the point of
Forster Press
Chargemaster
RCBS hand prime

Versus

Zero
Autotrickler
Primal Right CPS

And the answer to that is yes people will pay more for premium equipment to get better results. In the long term buying premium reloading gear will get you further than buying premium ammo at a price that is just going to keep going up and up.

 

[ClangClang]

I don't like shooting enough to spend more than I already do. Also, for the type of shooting I do (carbine matches, typically out to 500-600 yards max, with ~4 MOA targets), that type of accuracy isn't necessary at all. Speed is much more important than being able to drill bug holes at 1000+ yards. A 2.5 MOA gun/ammo combo (i.e. a decent AR shooting 55gr FMJ) is more than adequate to step on the podium. So I'm probably not your target market, but I still voted.

 

[flintcreek6412]

A guy spending $10K on an elk hunt should pay for the best ammo and gun he can get. It's a one shot opportunity so don't waste it.

A guy shooting combat just needs fast center of mass ammo that cycles reliably.

Me, I'm an f class shooter and there is not factory ammo that will ever compete with my reloads. Hell, barrel life alone is 40 cents a shot for me. bullets alone are 57 cents. If I'm not shooting .2MOA I move on. I don't practice at all after I develop a load which should take less than 50 shots.

Unless in competition I don't know why anyone would truly care about their hit percentage. Plinking is plinking and no one is going to pay money for good hits.

PRS guys I won't even think about chiming in for since I don't do it.....but I am building at 6BRA so who knows.....

But I did your pole and answered 40 rounds are less per session because that's all that applies to me.

 

[brianf]

A guy spending $10K on an elk hunt should pay for the best ammo and gun he can get. It's a one shot opportunity so don't waste it.

A guy shooting combat just needs fast center of mass ammo that cycles reliably.

Me, I'm an f class shooter and there is not factory ammo that will ever compete with my reloads. Hell, barrel life alone is 40 cents a shot for me. bullets alone are 57 cents. If I'm not shooting .2MOA I move on. I don't practice at all after I develop a load which should take less than 50 shots.

Unless in competition I don't know why anyone would truly care about their hit percentage. Plinking is plinking and no one is going to pay money for good hits.

PRS guys I won't even think about chiming in for since I don't do it.....but I am building at 6BRA so who knows.....

But I did your pole and answered 40 rounds are less per session because that's all that applies to me.

Thanks for the thorough reply

 

[SmartDonkey]

Factory ammo is a very small % of the shooting that I do.... but that being said- Yes, I would pay more for more consistent ammo (and more hits on target). It is very frustrating to be shooting inconsistent ammo and hit high then low then right-- and have it be the ammo and not you. But how much more is the issue....

Also, it doesn't hold true that the more expensive ammo is always better.

 

[Scottfree92]

I will always pay for match reloading components. I shoot paper for groups. Using less than the best is just a waste of time for me that will cause nothing but frustration.

 

[Photobug]

Deleted

 

[Leland T]

After having to work up different receipes every few months because of the current sitution . I mostly shoot the gongs now, and spend less time chasing the tightest group size.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

I'm having a hard time following the logic here. There are a bunch of different shooting activities and they require varying degrees of accuracy. Personally I don't shoot unless there is both a challenge and I can afford to enjoy myself.

For precision that can be at 1000 yards, very slow fire and expensive ammo to tiny groups at 50 yards with a 22lr. Different, but if I go cheaper I change the challenge.

As far as will I pay more for ammo-sure. In .223 I buy 55gr FMJ for speed challenges and Match Grade for precision and distant steel.

But, for you market research, here is the only thing that matters. I will pay market value, hopefully the low side.

If you make something more accurate than what I use now for less money, I'll buy it.

If you want to charge more, you will need a value proposition. I shoot FGMM .2 to .4 moa and 55gr IMI at .7 to 1.2 moa. What is my reason to switch?

 

[Texasflyer]

I allready deal with this delimma being a reloader. When i make up some rounds to go shoot depending on what im doing i may choose a 1 dollar 300 grain a tip or a 40 cent 225 grain sst. I only shoot factory ammo these days when i nees fresh brass.

 

[brianf]

I'm having a hard time following the logic here. There are a bunch of different shooting activities and they require varying degrees of accuracy. Personally I don't shoot unless there is both a challenge and I can afford to enjoy myself.

For precision that can be at 1000 yards, very slow fire and expensive ammo to tiny groups at 50 yards with a 22lr. Different, but if I go cheaper I change the challenge.

As far as will I pay more for ammo-sure. In .223 I buy 55gr FMJ for speed challenges and Match Grade for precision and distant steel.

But, for you market research, here is the only thing that matters. I will pay market value, hopefully the low side.

If you make something more accurate than what I use now for less money, I'll buy it.

If you want to charge more, you will need a value proposition. I shoot FGMM .2 to .4 moa and 55gr IMI at .7 to 1.2 moa. What is my reason to switch?

thanks for the reply

but i have a hard time believing that you print a .2-.4 group every single time.. never a flyer etc

if so you should enter 1000 yard f-class and clean up

 

[Old Man with Gun]

thanks for the reply

but i have a hard time believing that you print a .2-.4 group every single time.. never a flyer etc

if so you should enter 1000 yard f-class and clean up

I have fliers and windy days like most, but I do get a bunch of groups like that every range trip. I was just saying that is what FGMM out of my rifle is capable of.

 

[brianf]

I have fliers and windy days like most, but I do get a bunch of groups like that every range trip. I was just saying that is what FGMM out of my rifle is capable of.

Understood but there is a difference in Ammo quality and price

Ammo which can get “a bunch of groups”
and
Ammo that routinely produces those groups session after session, relay after relay

thanks

 

[The D]

I’m going to cheat a bit and say; a little of both. I’ll reload with good bullets and more consistent powder charges to get the cost down to factory prices. It doesn’t take long for the ammo to be one of the strongest links of the chain though. And it’s really easy for environmental factors to be the most obvious deciding factor

 

[Da Blues]

Done.......

Would I pay a premium price for an increased percentage of "hits" ? Why yes, yes I would.

That is all.