RDO emitter signature

[Ape_Factory]

Optics question but figured I'd get a better response in the semi-auto forum since we're the predominant users. Emitters and visible signature. Been thinking about this a bit lately and had a "bump in the night" last night which put it at the forefront. Pulled out the home defense gun and I'd forgotten to turn the reticle brightness down from my last range day. It was exceptionally bright, easily visible from distance on the business end of the gun. Turning it down does reduce the signature but if someone had been in my home, armed, it was literally a target saying "shoot here". I have a flash hider on the front but it doesn't prevent the emitter reflection from being seen through a fairly wide angle.

Curious if there are any RDO's that don't have a visible light front signature or if it's just the nature of the beast.

 

[bfoosh006]

There are Anti Reflection Devices out there.. but the emitter can still be seen from a straight on position>

They will dramatically cut down side visibility of the emitter.

As examples...

https://www.primaryarms.com/search?keywords=Anti Reflection device

Some of them can also alter light transmission through the RDS as well... so your field of view will be dimmer.

 

[Ape_Factory]

Have one of those built-in to my RDO unfortunately and it does help at certain obtuse angles, like you said, not so much from the straight on position.

 

[Coffee_and_Pipes]

Glad to hear everything is ok (other than the possible need to do some laundry) and interested in hearing reponses

 

[Charmingmander]

What is the optic in question may I ask?

 

[Ape_Factory]

Holosun HE515GT-GR.

 

[tucaz]

by the time anyone sees it, wouldnt they have holes in them all ready?

guess this is why i have irons and a white light on my house gun. need to see what you are shooting first, irons are just fine indoors, for me.

 

[Ape_Factory]

Hopefully yes, if warranted With that said, I can't use iron sights due to eye issues. I do use a light but only when tactically advantageous.

 

[bfoosh006]

Hopefully yes, if warranted With that said, I can't use iron sights due to eye issues. I do use a light but only when tactically advantageous.

May I ask what eye issues ?

If astigmatism... I would suggest moving to a prism RDS, in hopes you could maybe lower the intensity of the dot.

 

[Ape_Factory]

It's a focus issue, not astigmatism.

 

[Charmingmander]

I have the same optic with green LED.

Unfortunately holosun's line up just about all seem to have this problem and except for ARD's there isn't much you can do about it besides moving to a dot designed with this in mind.

 

[Ape_Factory]

Well that's my question. What RDO optic doesn't do this? Thinking they probably all do it to some extent. When properly adjusted for a darker room it's not that bad but there's still a light signature to give your presence/location away.

What had me thinking about it initially was some interviews I saw with soldiers fighting in Ukraine. And then I left my RDO on a daylight setting and the idea of signatures really hit home at an inopportune time. It does have flip caps but in an active situation, stopping to flip them up isn't an option. It's great otherwise, titanium construction, multiple reticles, light, etc...

 

[Downtown]

Here's an interesting experiment to try. Shooting with both eyes open, go ahead and close the cap. With my Aimpoint completely occluded, I was able to engage targets just fine. As long as both eyes were open, that dot superimposed right where it should.

 

[Ape_Factory]

Here's an interesting experiment to try. Shooting with both eyes open, go ahead and close the cap. With my Aimpoint completely occluded, I was able to engage targets just fine. As long as both eyes were open, that dot superimposed right where it should.

Ooooh. Never even considered that! You know I shoot both eyes open as well, left eye dominant, right handed shooter. Will give that a whirl! Thanks Downtown!

 

[308pirate]

Trying to use an RDO on a rifle as you would a magnified optic (trying to see the world through the little tube) shows a complete lack of understanding of how reflex optics and our own eyes work.

Part 2: How does the Army deal with this issue of visible signature?

 

[Ape_Factory]

Irrelevant to the discussion. No one here, including myself, has said we use an RDO that way.

 

[FunGunPun]

I’ve noticed when doing low light training that certain red dot optics and LPVOs that are more budget friendly in price tend to emit more visible light out of the optic. With the red dots it tends to be through the front and with the lpvos it tends to be through the rear. It can be quite noticeable at some distance, very much so inside a structure.

All red dots have a forward signature but some just seem to be more than others. I would assume this comes down to a number of factors such as brightness of the optic, darkness of the environment, distance from the optic, position of the emitter inside the optic, and lens coatings.

Maybe someone else can shed some more light on this topic.

 

[Ape_Factory]

Maybe someone else can shed some more light on this topic.

I see what you did there.

 

[carbonbased]

Maybe someone else can shed some more light on this topic.

Username checks out

 

[TheHorta]

I thought EXPS3 holosights eliminated most of the light wash from the reticle. (?)

 

[hlee]

Maybe someone else has the data but, how often is someone getting clapped because of light leaking out of the front of their red dot?

This reminds me of a conversation I overheard in a gun store, back when “silver” scope finishes were popular. One guy said “I don’t like ‘em. Too easy for deer to see.” The other guy said “if the deer is close enough to see my scope, I’ll just shoot ‘em.”

 

[Ernest 5.56]

I don't know your particular needs or what extreme situation you are preparing for but if you have good binocular vision you can cover the front of the sight and shoot with both eyes open.

occluded eye gunsight​

 

[Ape_Factory]

I don't know your particular needs or what extreme situation you are preparing for but if you have good binocular vision you can cover the front of the sight and shoot with both eyes open.

occluded eye gunsight​

View attachment 8375181View attachment 8375182

See post #13. Nothing "extreme" about my situation, in a dark house I would prefer to see an intruder before he sees me.

 

[hlee]

See post #13. Nothing "extreme" about my situation, in a dark house I would prefer to see an intruder before he sees me.

Look for the signature from his red dot…

 

[camocorvette]

Are you laying in wait and you expect the intruder to pie the corner and see your red dot from the front? OK, shoot them

Are you clearing your house room to room with no white light and you come upon an intruder and you think they didn't hear you clearing your house room to room with no white light? OK, shoot them.

Are you clearing your house with white light on your HD weapon? And your worried they will see through 1000 lumens of white light and pinpoint your position via the red dot on your weapon? OK, shoot them.

The only thing I can think of this being an issue is if you are laying in ambush in a pitch black room. If your moving, your already giving off signatures of movement and your presence through sound, shadow and scent.

But if you have a 100% intruder. Either escape with your family or welcome them with a mag of gold dot/tap/ttsx. Your red dot emitter is so far down the list of things to worry about.

 

[FunGunPun]

I thought EXPS3 holosights eliminated most of the light wash from the reticle. (?)

From my understanding the eotech HWS such as the exps3 optics use lasers pointed at mirrors inside of the optic in order to create the reticle. Whereas traditional red dot sights use an LED to project the reticle onto the forward glass lens of the optic. Red dots by their design project a light forward which can be see.

An easy way I found to illustrate this is to set your red dot on your kitchen counter facing you, take a few steps back and get eye level with it. Typically the brighter you make the dot, the easier it is to see. The darker the room, the easier it is to see.

I don’t have an eotech to try this with but I would be interested in the results.

 

[FunGunPun]

Are you laying in wait and you expect the intruder to pie the corner and see your red dot from the front? OK, shoot them

Are you clearing your house room to room with no white light and you come upon an intruder and you think they didn't hear you clearing your house room to room with no white light? OK, shoot them.

Are you clearing your house with white light on your HD weapon? And your worried they will see through 1000 lumens of white light and pinpoint your position via the red dot on your weapon? OK, shoot them.

The only thing I can think of this being an issue is if you are laying in ambush in a pitch black room. If your moving, your already giving off signatures of movement and your presence through sound, shadow and scent.

But if you have a 100% intruder. Either escape with your family or welcome them with a mag of gold dot/tap/ttsx. Your red dot emitter is so far down the list of things to worry about.

I think what the OP is worried about is giving up a tactical advantage. You are correct that there are many other factors involved and many others should have a higher priority but why give up on one advantage if you don’t need to?

Clearing the inside of a structure can certainly be done quietly and without use of white light. Perhaps he’s moving slowly down a hall that opens up to a large room but plainly visible coming down the hall is a floating red light from his optic. Bad guy could see him before he sees them, that would generally be bad. Is this highly probable? Who knows, maybe or maybe not.

 

[Ernest 5.56]

From my understanding the eotech HWS such as the exps3 optics use lasers pointed at mirrors inside of the optic in order to create the reticle. Whereas traditional red dot sights use an LED to project the reticle onto the forward glass lens of the optic. Red dots by their design project a light forward which can be see.

An easy way I found to illustrate this is to set your red dot on your kitchen counter facing you, take a few steps back and get eye level with it. Typically the brighter you make the dot, the easier it is to see. The darker the room, the easier it is to see.

I don’t have an eotech to try this with but I would be interested in the results.

Found this on the how to identify a counterfeit eotech page

Lastly, a counterfeit sight can be identified if there is any light source visibly present when looking through the sight. A user cannot see the laser diode source anywhere in the housing of a genuine EOTECH sight. Most counterfeits are designed with the light source facing the user’s eye; fully exposing the light source.

https://www.eotechinc.com/help-center/counterfeit-detection

 

[Ape_Factory]

Interesting, thanks for that Ernest, appreciated.