Sidearms & Scatterguns RDS Pistol people, why dont you have a seat right over here......

[308pirate]

Have you had the chance to test/try a Swampfox Sentinel?

No, and I don't intend to.

I won't stake my life on anything except the best which is why I carry only Trijicon, and while USPSA isn't life and death I spend too much time and money to be competitive in it to add sub-tier chinesium to the mix.

A lot of people have taken to calling the RMR outdated and point to all the gimmick features that come in Holosun optics. All those gimmicks (shake awake, side battery tray, multiple reticles, solar panel) are compensation for the fact that Holosun fails to deliver a simple reticle that is fast to use without drawing your eyes to it and fails to deliver a robust auto illumination adjustemt.

I gave Holosun a fair shake, shooting day one of a two-day pistol class with it and having tons of trouble trying to stay target focused The 32 moa reticle was like a magnet to my eyes, and the tiny 2 moa dot (which is OK on a rifle) was just too damned slow on a pistol. I swapped it for a 5 MOA SRO day two and performance boost was noticeable.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Get the any of the LED models with the buttons on the side. Pick whatever size dot you want but trust me when i tell you that you want the largest one (6.5 MOA)

I have two 5 MOA SROs, one RMR (RM07, which adjustable LED with a 6.5 MOA dot), and Holosun 507CX.

The LED RMRs with the side buttons have three modes: manually adjustable brightness, locked brightness, and auto adjust brightness. My RMR lives on my carry gun (a G19) and it's on constantly in auto brightness mode. The RMR's auto brightness feature is remarkable in its sensitivity and reaction speed. The SRO has the same modes but its auto brightness is not as responsive as the RMR's. It's close but not the same. Holosun's auto brightness mode is completely useless and it makes Holosun products unsuitable for serious use.

I haven't tested my RMR for washout due to WML, mostly because I don't have any WMLs, but I can assure you that I have zero problems standing in a pitch black room, aiming into a brightly lit one, and seeing a perfectly illuminated dot.

I will not use any pistol mounted RDS for defensive purposes whose auto brightness feature isn't as good as the RMR's, and none are as good as the RMR.

appreciate the info. i wish they offered the type 2 with a 9 moa dot. i already know the bigger the better and wonder if the 6.5moa is even big enough.

 

[gixxer822]

I carry Holosuns for work. I use em for competition. They’ve been very good for me. I personally don’t care for trijicon which would be the only alternative at this point. The others are have had so many failures that I’ve seen.

 

[308pirate]

appreciate the info. i wish they offered the type 2 with a 9 moa dot. i already know the bigger the better and wonder if the 6.5moa is even big enough.

If you're near western Ohio maybe we can meet up and you can try mine.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

If you're near western Ohio maybe we can meet up and you can try mine.

i am...

 

[pmclaine]

If you're near western Ohio maybe we can meet up and you can try mine.

i am...

 

[Killswitch Engage]

$20 is $20

 

[1moaoff]

$20 is $20

Inflation...21.50 is 20.00

 

[308pirate]

$20 is $20

You mean you just want five rounds?

 

[DocRDS]

Get the any of the LED models with the buttons on the side. Pick whatever size dot you want but trust me when i tell you that you want the largest one (6.5 MOA)

I have two 5 MOA SROs, one RMR (RM07, which adjustable LED with a 6.5 MOA dot), and Holosun 507CX.

The LED RMRs with the side buttons have three modes: manually adjustable brightness, locked brightness, and auto adjust brightness. My RMR lives on my carry gun (a G19) and it's on constantly in auto brightness mode. The RMR's auto brightness feature is remarkable in its sensitivity and reaction speed. The SRO has the same modes but its auto brightness is not as responsive as the RMR's. It's close but not the same. Holosun's auto brightness mode is completely useless and it makes Holosun products unsuitable for serious use.

I haven't tested my RMR for washout due to WML, mostly because I don't have any WMLs, but I can assure you that I have zero problems standing in a pitch black room, aiming into a brightly lit one, and seeing a perfectly illuminated dot.

I will not use any pistol mounted RDS for defensive purposes whose auto brightness feature isn't as good as the RMR's, and none are as good as the RMR.

Late to the party:

This is the consensus of our local shooting groups. There are some Leupold DPP holdouts--but with carry optics exploding, we've got between 30+ people running SROs and RMRs.

I was a skeptic for a long time. I was wrong--if you are a Boomer carrying 1911 guy, get your ass a Red Dot. And unlike your rifle, make it a BIG dot. I'm too fat and slow to be GM level--but its what all our pros use (the sponsered guys)

 

[308pirate]

Late to the party:

This is the consensus of our local shooting groups. There are some Leupold DPP holdouts--but with carry optics exploding, we've got between 30+ people running SROs and RMRs.

I was a skeptic for a long time. I was wrong--if you are a Boomer carrying 1911 guy, get your ass a Red Dot. And unlike your rifle, make it a BIG dot. I'm too fat and slow to be GM level--but its what all our pros use (the sponsered guys)

99.99999% of USPSA shooters wearing jerseys with "sponsor" logos aren't even close to being professional shooters by any definition of the word..... LOL

 

[DocRDS]

Yeah I know, but we have a few pros who make the major circuit locally. We had a bunch on the podium at Area 4. Bonafide match GMs, not the paper type. They all switched to carry optics or open last few years so now I have a fighting chance in prod rofl.

 

[DRandi]

Recently purchased a Walther PDP compact and was going to give the red dot thing a go. Anyone have any experience with the US Optics DRS 2.0 Enhanced?

DRS 2.0 Enhanced - US Optics

When looking for a reflex sighting solution for your duty pistol, shotgun or AR, you’re looking to achieve one goal – to always be ready. The DRS 2.0 Enhanced will undoubtably help you find your target fast and take the shot accurately.

www.usoptics.com

 

[Milf Dots]

I'm all about duty rated pistol and long gun optics like the coming Aimpoint Acro P2.

 

[Basher]

I'm all about duty rated pistol and long gun optics like the coming Aimpoint Acro P2.

I’m kind of waiting on the P2 as well, but something says I’ll be waiting awhile and should just get an RMR for now.

Besides, I already sold an SRO because duty grade retention holsters for the Langdon 92G LTT RDO are hard enough to find before you even bring the SRO’s increased size into the equation. I’d imagine waiting for an ACRO P2 holster will take even longer. So while that’s the end goal for me, I’ll probably cave on an RM06 soon and run that until everything else comes together for the P2.

 

[pmclaine]

How many inch pounds of screw stretch are you RMR/Sig people using to mount your sights.

Took a class this week, two days of firing, less than 500 rounds. Looks like my witness marks walked a little.

Gonna clean, dry thread, apply some blue loctite and snug them back up.

Seeing everything from 9 to 12 inch pounds.

DO NOT WANT TO SNAP A SCREW.

Paging @308pirate as he is the last word on everything

 

[theLBC]

were you using blue loctite already? mine are 12in/lb and the most i have seen is 15.

 

[pmclaine]

were you using blue loctite already? mine are 12in/lb and the most i have seen is 15.

Yep. Blue loctite.

I also use oil base paint to seal the head of the screw and hit it with an oil base paint witness mark

I set them at 12 inch pounds using a Seekonk beam wrench Ill paint them up and watch the marks.

 

[Tallahassee]

FCD recommends 13 in/lb, using VC3 thread locker.

 

[pmclaine]

Damn paint is running more than my neat OCD can handle.....

 

[E. Bryant]

How many inch pounds of screw stretch are you RMR/Sig people using to mount your sights.

Took a class this week, two days of firing, less than 500 rounds. Looks like my witness marks walked a little.

Gonna clean, dry thread, apply some blue loctite and snug them back up.

Seeing everything from 9 to 12 inch pounds.

DO NOT WANT TO SNAP A SCREW.

Paging @308pirate as he is the last word on everything

15 in-lb + Blue Loctite 242 is what I've used with success on both 6-40 and 6-48 screws into stainless slides with adequate engagement. Different materials and/or thread engagement may dictate lower values.

 

[nikonNUT]

Per Sig instructions for the Romeo Pro …
“Direct Mount: The ROMEO1PRO, when mounted directly to a firearm only requires two mounting screws. The mounting holes should be checked for debris and cleaned out if necessary. The sight is to be placed directly on the slide and inside of the shroud if applicable, the screws threaded
into the proper holes in the firearm, and the fasteners torqued to 28-30 in-lbs. Mounting screw torque should be checked approximately every 500 rounds, or any time the optic is removed and reinstalled. Proper mounting torque is critical to ensuring the optic zero does not shift under recoil.”

 

[308pirate]

How many inch pounds of screw stretch are you RMR/Sig people using to mount your sights.

Took a class this week, two days of firing, less than 500 rounds. Looks like my witness marks walked a little.

Gonna clean, dry thread, apply some blue loctite and snug them back up.

Seeing everything from 9 to 12 inch pounds.

DO NOT WANT TO SNAP A SCREW.

Paging @308pirate as he is the last word on everything

I go by the Fastenal guide for screw torques in the absence of a specific manufacturer's standard.

https://www.fastenal.com/content/merch_rules/images/fcom/content-library/Torque-Tension%20Reference%20Guide.pdf

I would need to know the exact thread specs we're talking about.

Trijicon optics use #6 32 TPI flat head screws, and I always buy them from McMaster Carr so I know they comply with ASTM F835 for alloy composition and mechanical properties: https://www.mcmaster.com/screws/fla...ex-drive-flat-head-screws-9/thread-size~6-32/

In my case, going by the Fastenal guidlines, I torque my screws to between 15 and 17 in-lb on my pistols that are either direct mill or use the OEM CZ optics adapter plate, which use #6-32 screws.

I have one P-10C that has a CHPWS optic plate. That one uses machined bosses and smaller #4-40 flat head screws. Those I torque to 9 - 10 in-lbs, again referencing the Fastenal guide.

 

[308pirate]

and the fasteners torqued to 28-30 in-lbs

Holy shit that's a lot unless they're pretty big fucking screws........

 

[308pirate]

FCD recommends 13 in/lb, using VC3 thread locker.

That's too low for what I assume are #6 flat head screws threaded into steel and VC3 sucks balls.

I don't care who FCD is, there's no way I would follow their recommendation.

 

[308pirate]

Recently purchased a Walther PDP compact and was going to give the red dot thing a go. Anyone have any experience with the US Optics DRS 2.0 Enhanced?

DRS 2.0 Enhanced - US Optics

When looking for a reflex sighting solution for your duty pistol, shotgun or AR, you’re looking to achieve one goal – to always be ready. The DRS 2.0 Enhanced will undoubtably help you find your target fast and take the shot accurately.

www.usoptics.com

I'm almost sure it's some far east cheapo. Consider it disposable or buy two if they're cheap enough. That way you have a spare for when, not if, the other breaks.

Or buy a Trijicon which you know will work and have resale value in case you don't like it.

 

[308pirate]

Damn paint is running more than my neat OCD can handle.....

View attachment 7779520

I think I see what a part of your problem is. Those are button head screws and you need to use flat head (countersink) screws. Flat head screws will have tons more contact area (friction)under the head.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

No, and I don't intend to.

I won't stake my life on anything except the best which is why I carry only Trijicon, and while USPSA isn't life and death I spend too much time and money to be competitive in it to add sub-tier chinesium to the mix.

A lot of people have taken to calling the RMR outdated and point to all the gimmick features that come in Holosun optics. All those gimmicks (shake awake, side battery tray, multiple reticles, solar panel) are compensation for the fact that Holosun fails to deliver a simple reticle that is fast to use without drawing your eyes to it and fails to deliver a robust auto illumination adjustemt.

I gave Holosun a fair shake, shooting day one of a two-day pistol class with it and having tons of trouble trying to stay target focused The 32 moa reticle was like a magnet to my eyes, and the tiny 2 moa dot (which is OK on a rifle) was just too damned slow on a pistol. I swapped it for a 5 MOA SRO day two and performance boost was noticeable.

The 2/32 MOA Holosun reticle is perfect on a shotgun. 5 or 6 MOA dot is perfect on a handgun.

 

[pmclaine]

I think I see what a part of your problem is. Those are button head screws and you need to use flat head (countersink) screws. Flat head screws will have tons more contact area (friction)under the head.

No these have a countersunk head....

SIG P320 6-40 LowProfile Head Screws for Trijicon RMR / SRO - C&H Precision Weapons

These screws were designed and manufactured by C&H Precision to mount the Trijicon RMR & SRO to the SIG P320 OEM Romeo1 Pro Optics Cut with RMR 6-40 mounting holes. These come as a set of two. These screws are meant to be used with one of following C&H Precision…

chpws.com

Wish I had a good spec on what the tap is on the AXG slide. Assuming 6-40 x .41. Also see that they may be M40 - .7.

Im just kind of trusting CPHWS based on what they sent with teh plate but that may not be advisable.

From Sig

From a customer at CPHWS

From Sig Talk....

 

[nikonNUT]

Holy shit that's a lot unless they're pretty big fucking screws........

It is and they aren't. Look like #8s to me but I figure Sig's RDS on Sig's pistol... That's on Sig if something goes wrong. Used the 25 in/lb Fix-it- Stick and rocked on. No issues yet.

 

[E. Bryant]

Holy shit that's a lot unless they're pretty big fucking screws........

Holo-Krome recommends 30 in-lb for UNRC and 34 in-lb for UNRF #6 socket head cap screws (emphasis added since we are almost always using flat-head screws for RDS attachment), and Unbrako recommends 32 in-lb and 40 in-lb. So there is more strength in the threaded portion of even a #6 screw than most people realize, especially when using quality fasteners. (FWIW, Holo-Krome suggests 18 in-lb for a flat head #6 screw - I'm guessing that the smaller hex socket is the limiting factor).

The problem typically comes from the fact that some mounts have about one thread of actual engagement, and so we need to be ever so careful about pulling that out of the butter-soft material used for some slides.

 

[Basher]

Holo-Krome recommends 30 in-lb for UNRC and 34 in-lb for UNRF #6 socket head cap screws (emphasis added since we are almost always using flat-head screws for RDS attachment), and Unbrako recommends 32 in-lb and 40 in-lb. So there is more strength in the threaded portion of even a #6 screw than most people realize, especially when using quality fasteners. (FWIW, Holo-Krome suggests 18 in-lb for a flat head #6 screw - I'm guessing that the smaller hex socket is the limiting factor).

The problem typically comes from the fact that some mounts have about one thread of actual engagement, and so we need to be ever so careful about pulling that out of the butter-soft material used for some slides.

Are there actually mounts with only ~one thread of engagement?? That’s retarded if true, IMO.

 

[E. Bryant]

Are there actually mounts with only ~one thread of engagement?? That’s retarded if true, IMO.

I may be exaggerating slightly... but only slightly.

The definition of "enough internal threads" is that I should be able to break the externally-threaded fastener (read: screw) before I strip any internal threads. Many (most?) mounting systems will fail that test. And let's be honest - this isn't limited to just RDS pistol slides (R700 scope rail screws being the example that is probably most familiar to this site's membership).

 

[Basher]

I may be exaggerating slightly... but only slightly.

The definition of "enough internal threads" is that I should be able to break the externally-threaded fastener (read: screw) before I strip any internal threads. Many (most?) mounting systems will fail that test. And let's be honest - this isn't limited to just RDS pistol slides (R700 scope rail screws being the example that is probably most familiar to this site's membership).

I just find it hard to swallow that anyone would intentionally design a mount/plate to have only ~1/32” of engagement (assuming a 6-32 screw). I guess it’s possible, but wow.

I currently only have an LTT RDO, but plan to add additional optics to other pistols. By design, the 92 series has to use a plate, but I trust LTT’s plate design more so than I do something like the MOS system. Everything else I own will be milled/direct mount whenever possible as I find it to be a far superior option.

 

[308pirate]

some mounts have about one thread of actual engagement,

Not mine.....

All my pistols with adapter plates are the CZ OEM system. The plate is steel, it's about 1/8" thick, threaded through, and there are unthreaded recesses in the slide for the screws to keep going.

There are other OEM systems I don't trust (Glock, S&W) because the plate is just a pass through or it's thin as fuck and/or made of aluminum or plastic.

Agree with socked head cap screws having higher standard torque and it has to be due to the larger hex drive in most of them.

 

[308pirate]

No these have a countersunk head....

SIG P320 6-40 LowProfile Head Screws for Trijicon RMR / SRO - C&H Precision Weapons

These screws were designed and manufactured by C&H Precision to mount the Trijicon RMR & SRO to the SIG P320 OEM Romeo1 Pro Optics Cut with RMR 6-40 mounting holes. These come as a set of two. These screws are meant to be used with one of following C&H Precision…

chpws.com

Wish I had a good spec on what the tap is on the AXG slide. Assuming 6-40 x .41. Also see that they may be M40 - .7.

Im just kind of trusting CPHWS based on what they sent with teh plate but that may not be advisable.

From Sig

View attachment 7780067

From a customer at CPHWS

View attachment 7780068

From Sig Talk....

View attachment 7780069

View attachment 7780070

Gotcha, they appeared to be button head screws from straight above in your picture

 

[E. Bryant]

I just find it hard to swallow that anyone would intentionally design a mount/plate to have only ~1/32” of engagement (assuming a 6-32 screw). I guess it’s possible, but wow.

I currently only have an LTT RDO, but plan to add additional optics to other pistols. By design, the 92 series has to use a plate, but I trust LTT’s plate design more so than I do something like the MOS system. Everything else I own will be milled/direct mount whenever possible as I find it to be a far superior option.

Once again, I was being a bit facetious with my comment, but if you take a nominal hole depth and then you take into account all the things which reduce thread engagement (namely the chamfer at the tip of the screw and on the entrance of the internally-threaded hole, and the clearance that needs to remain at the bottom of the hole for the blind drilling and tapping operations), some of these designs leave very, very minimal engagement.

I've got an aftermarket RMR mount on a Ruger Mark III which has just a touch over 2 turns of thread engagement into aluminum. No big deal since it's only a 22LR and the mount doesn't reciprocate, but it's an illustrative example.