Realistic expectations..

[barronian]

I really don't want to start a BS war here, i'd seriously like to know what the realistic expectations should be for a first year shooter. I live out in the styx and there isn't a single other .22lr shooter here to compare with.

starting point:
CZ 455 Varmint
Athlon midas tac 6-24x50
prone or benchrest with Dolphin AB bipod and Protektor Rabbit Ear Rear Shooting Rest
good selection of ammo from cci sv to lapua center-x

sooooo, what i'm trying to understand:

what % of new shooters can consistently shoot 5 shot groups under 1.5 MOA at 50m or 100m ?
what % of new shooters can consistently shoot 5 shot groups under 1 MOA at 50m or 100m ?
what % of new shooters can consistently shoot 5 shot groups under 0.5 MOA at 50m or 100m ?

and the reason for asking is that my results are really inconsistent some groups are under 0.35 MOA others are closer to 2 MOA.

Ive been reading everything available here on sniper's hide and other places and concentrating on the basics - i'm beginning to develop a 'feel' for when a shot is going to be good, but still haven't 'found' my natural hold such that i can just 'relax into it' for each shot.

and back to the question - what should a beginner (<2000 shots) have as a realistic MOA accuracy target with an off the shelf 455 ?

 

[brianf]

starting with your rifle, if its a "average/good" factory etc:

take a look at the rimfire 6x5 thread

there are some serious shooters there with serious rigs, that will give you a maximum performance threshold with rimfire (unless your benchrest and those guys will only but certain lot numbers from certain manufacturing lines from the factory)

as you prob have already read, brand and lot of ammo is the most important.
if you really get serious you have to chronograph the lot number
if the rifle doesnt like it...you out of luck
if the velocity spread is too much...your out of luck

let say you get a decent lot of ammo: (environmental conditions are good for shooting)
5 shots under 1.5 moa at 100 is a very high percentage, minus drops for low velocity rounds 75% and up
5 shots under 1 moa at 100, 40-50%
5 shots at .5 moa at 100, well below 20% if any (not many guys or weapons can shoot consecutive 5 shot groups under 1/2" at 100)

1/2" groups at 100 with factory rifle are verrry hard to achieve (mainly because of the ammo)

guys will chime in and kill me like always but

generic #'s im probably close

below is a target from member jbell from the other thread (serious 22lr shooter, and a serious rig)

i chose this one because it was from 2018 and very clear picture lol

hope he doesnt get pissed at me

hovering around consistent 1 moa with a rimfire, not cherry picked groups is a good shooting

brian

 

[barronian]

Thanks Brian. Nice shooting from jbell - his 100yd is similar to mine at 50m !
On a good set my 100m looks like the pic below - i just cant consistently do this :-(

 

[diverdon]

There is a hard part to your question and an easy part. The easy part, if s beginner starts by learning the fundamentals and and spends all his time rigorously applying them to every shot then in less than a year you could ring most of the potential out of that rifle. The more common shooter just shoots for fun without really working systematically using study and practice to improve.

The hard part, depends on your physiology and temperament. Some people are naturally gifted and others not so much.

 

[brianf]

Thanks Brian. Nice shooting from jbell - his 100yd is similar to mine at 50m !
On a good set my 100m looks like the pic below - i just cant consistently do this :-(

View attachment 7081423

great shooting.

ahhhh those flyers ruin everything lol.

like diverdon said, now it comes down to how bad you want it

one way is shooting for fun but still trying and the other is keeping notes and calling each shot

i think thats why a lot of guys start shooting farther at steel and gongs.

a !/4 moa off POA is still a hit and makes us happy

when i watch the groups open up i get insane

to bad you dont have the chrono numbers to see if that 5:00 shot had a lower velocity as well

 

[steve123]

I had that same CZ model years ago, it just wasn't a good shootin rifle, once in a while with match ammo I'd get some 1/2" groups but it was .8-.9" average at 50Y. With factory rifles this happens sometimes. Sorry man I don't mean to bring discouragement.

On the other hand I've never had an Anschutz that didn't shoot decent, owned 6 or so throughout the years.

Exaggerated follow through in form is probably the most important aspect of shooting rimfire, and your hold, cheek weld, etc, must be as close to the same every time. Pulling the trigger straight back helps.

Just because someone has spent the big bucks on match ammo doesn't mean it'll shoot it's best in a certain rifle. At the Lapua facility, out of 6 lots of Lapua Polar Biathlon, only one lot number shot noticeably better than the rest. I bought a case. If you find a lot number of any ammo that shoots well in a certain rifle go into debt and buy a bunch of it!

Rimfire, lol, it's not for the faint of heart!

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

i'll chime in as you and i aren't that far apart in terms of experience. i was in the same boat as you about a year and a half ago.

i had just bought a 455 tacticool and was getting into rimfire prs/nrl22 matches.

here is the questions i asked myself - what are the accuracy requirements for the discipline i'm getting into? i would have different expectations for different disciplines. the matches i shoot usually have pretty generous steel targets and a hit is a hit. obviously i want to hit as close to center every time but a wind reading or fundamental error isn't going to totally kill me unless it is a KYL rack. benchrest/bullseye/silhouette are different animals with different requirements. i can't really speak to them as that isn't my game.

i spent the majority of that first year working on fundamentals, i started at 25 yards and worked on consistent position, consistent trigger mechanics, good sight picture and trying to call my shot. as i got better i moved to 50.

i'll be honest, i still can't consistently shoot a nice .5" group at 50, but i do know that i can work my way down to the 3/8 target on the KYL rack. my rifle, ammo and fundamentals don't allow me to hit the 1/4"

to answer your question, out of the box those results are achievable at 50m with lots of practice. 100m is asking alot of you and the rifle

 

[barronian]

to bad you dont have the chrono numbers to see if that 5:00 shot had a lower velocity as well

Im an old nerd - i wont be able to 'shoot for fun' before i've mastered the fundimentals.
unfortunately i dont think i can blame the velocity :-( think it was just me ...

Ive just been out at the range - i'll add a general post

 

[barronian]

@MDrimfirerookie looks like im following the same path as you - working on fundamentals, consistent position, consistent trigger mechanics.... my weak spot appears to be stock/shoulder pressure vs trigger hand 'pull back' i get 1.5 inches of vertical just playing with those two variables - i can 'feel' when it is 'right' ... i just haven't worked out exactly what it is that i'm doing(or not doing !) when it is 'right'.

The target below shows my problem ... i'm trying to be consistent - the three in the middle felt 'right', i think the high five where because i 'pulled back into my shoulder' too hard and i think the two low were because i 'pushed with my shoulder' too hard. but when i start trying to test these theories things become very erratic - prob because i exaggerate the 'holds' ?

as a side observation, with the weather conditions today you could watch the bullet fly - really bizarre watching it spiral towards the target !

 

[barronian]

I had that same CZ model years ago, it just wasn't a good shootin rifle, once in a while with match ammo I'd get some 1/2" groups but it was .8-.9" average at 50Y. With factory rifles this happens sometimes. Sorry man I don't mean to bring discouragement.

@steve123 there was a while where i wondered that about my 455. But now im starting to get some tighter groups, and just to rub it in that i'm not that good yet i loaned the gun to another shooter today and he *demonstrated* how to do 5 shot 0.4 MOA groups at 100m ... to make things worse he did just about everything 'wrong' according to the fundamentals that i've been studying here on sniper's hide... aaagh!

 

[justin amateur]

Hah! Realistic expectations.....with rimfire no less.

Don't look at me. I spend my time at 200 yards.
I operate in my own personal fantasy world.
I'm trying for sub-moa using a bipod and rimfire.

I'm not saying I'm accomplishing sub-moa, just having fun trying.

 

[PAYDIRT]

My 455 will go awol if I switch around ammo without cleaning the bore. It also loves the bore snake about every 150 rounds.

 

[barronian]

@justin amateur ive been through ALL of your 200yd ammo tests. even built myself a fuglie ! appreciate your input to our knowledge base.

 

[billmeek]

I'm a newer precision shooter, so I'm far from an expert. But a couple of things that really help me are:

Get a natural point of aim on the rifle. By that I mean settle the rifle on the bipod and bag to where they are on target without your hands on the rifle instead of having to apply any force to aim during the shot.

Take a couple of deep breaths, let the last one out, and hold before shooting.

Aim small. With the target dot on the Midas TAC, it's easier to aim at a smaller target rather than going for the center of a ring.

While bench shooting is usually good, I find myself doing better in a prone position. But staying prone for an extended time is rough on this older, out-of-shape body. I fire only a few (pre-loaded) mags max before getting up and stretching.

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

@MDrimfirerookie looks like im following the same path as you - working on fundamentals, consistent position, consistent trigger mechanics.... my weak spot appears to be stock/shoulder pressure vs trigger hand 'pull back' i get 1.5 inches of vertical just playing with those two variables - i can 'feel' when it is 'right' ... i just haven't worked out exactly what it is that i'm doing(or not doing !) when it is 'right'.

The target below shows my problem ... i'm trying to be consistent - the three in the middle felt 'right', i think the high five where because i 'pulled back into my shoulder' too hard and i think the two low were because i 'pushed with my shoulder' too hard. but when i start trying to test these theories things become very erratic - prob because i exaggerate the 'holds' ?

as a side observation, with the weather conditions today you could watch the bullet fly - really bizarre watching it spiral towards the target !

thats nice shooting, don't be down on yourself. you really do need to find that sweet spot of getting the stock into your shoulder pocket with just the right pressure and just the right cheek weld. i'm still no there myself. are you mostly shooting prone or off a bench? the other thing to take into consideration is the stock and how it fits you. that is a big problem with a lot of people. if your length of pull is off, that effects your trigger press, how you hold the stock influences as well. i've really tried to hammer home these things in dry fire in my basement. at the same time, i'm trying to learn the basics of building solid positions off of less than stable barricades in kneeling, sitting and standing. there is a TON that goes wrong with me but every now and then i have a stage at a match where it all just clicks. happened to me on Sunday where the conditions where right, my fundamentals were right and I did really well. it felt great to get up off the rifle.

it always fascinates me when i can spot trace, especially with the 22.

keep hammering away and you will see the improvement. as you saw, really tight groups are possible, but how long has that individual been shooting.

 

[acudaowner]

I am not in any way a great shooter I love going to the range being outdoors in most weather 80% of the time . we started with 2 inch circles at 100 yards now down to 1 inch target doing the same thing at 200 yards now hope i can do that out to 400 with a 22lr and other rounds . I still get flyers that I know I should have not shot , but did anyway . slowing down is a bit easier still find my self speeding up from time to time . But I will keep trying .

 

[EddieE]

I have a CZ 455 varmint and got the best 6x5 of my life with it. I could never reproduce it. I'm convinced it was a fluke as my gun is a 0.6" average gun, on that day it averaged far better. As my shooting improved, my frustration with the gun went up. Gun is on sale and will go soon. My point is, you can't expect a $500 gun to knock your socks off in any category. It's a $500 gun and for that it is a great gun. I loved my gun when I first got it. That love affair ended once I started to see that my groups would open up and there was nothing I was doing to cause it. I could spend thousands trying to improve the CZ...I'm about 1200-1300 into my CZ. Without a new barrel! I'm sure if I put a new barrel, custom fit, ferry magic dust by the big name gunsmiths, and another 1000-1500 into it, I would have an awesome gun that shoots .2-.3 consistently. I'm just not the guy for that. If you look on the FS forum, there is a guy trying to sell a DJ rifle that he has damn near to 3k into it for 1900 and its still there. I think its been up for sale for at least 9 months or more.

I think reasonable expectations for a factory CZ is 0.6-.9" groups @ 50. Anything smaller then that consistently I would consider an excellent gun. Enjoy your gun. Have fun, keep at it and you will find yourself going down the rabbit hole like the rest of us....22LR will drive you insane.

 

[TheMightyGorilla]

Chasing the MOA can be great fun at first.... until you realize this is rimfire, ammo is key. And you can chase that dragon forever.

Stock rifle Brand A, but you replace it with X barrel, Y trigger, barrel tuner Z, stock S, bed the barrel, ....and at what point is it even a Brand A anymore?

Shooting for sub moa at 50 drives me insane. Shooting golf balls at 220 puts a freaking huge smile on my face. I've gone from someone who competes, to someone who just wants to enjoy the day shooting.

 

[Near miss]

I am going to put real data here.
My sister, having no previous shooting experience and having shot my Quad earlier 4 weeks ago approx 100 rounds.. She shot this paper on Sunday and it includes warmup group (center target). After wind settled for a moment she emptied 15 rounds and got that within 1,5".

And these SK Biathlons do not run the best in 55yd testing either, barely 0.5"

 

[EddieE]

Chasing the MOA can be great fun at first.... until you realize this is rimfire, ammo is key. And you can chase that dragon forever.

Stock rifle Brand A, but you replace it with X barrel, Y trigger, barrel tuner Z, stock S, bed the barrel, ....and at what point is it even a Brand A anymore?

Shooting for sub moa at 50 drives me insane. Shooting golf balls at 220 puts a freaking huge smile on my face. I've gone from someone who competes, to someone who just wants to enjoy the day shooting.

If your gun can't shoot well at 50, I doubt you can hit golf balls at 220. If you can do that consistently, you and your gun are a good pair. Starting with the right platform is key. I hit a golf ball once at 300 yards with my CZ....dumb luck I'm sure. Never hit it again.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Someone already mentioned this: what is your goal? If the goal is to make tiny little groups on paper at various ranges, that will likely be an expensive pursuit, with no small amount of frustration due to the nature of rimfire ammo.

For me personally, the goal is accuracy sufficient to participate in PRS/NRL - type rimfire competition. That’s a whole different beast. A hit on the edge of a 2MOA target is just as good as a hit dead center. Great accuracy is still hugely beneficial, but paper is more demanding than steel. I have a couple of .22 swinger targets with 3”, 2” and 1” plates. I practice on those at 100 (2”, 1” plates) or 150 yards (3”, 2” plates). For me, getting into a stable position and getting WELL-AIMED rounds off QUICKLY is a far bigger challenge than making little groups.

One thing no one has mentioned is that .22s have a very long dwell time (how long bullet is in barrel) - almost triple that of a centerfire round. Learn to call your shots: at the PRECISE instant the shot breaks, where was your crosshair, what was the rifle doing, and where was the crosshair when the bullet hit the target? If that rifle moves even an imperceptible amount as the shot breaks, the round will not land where you aim it.

A CZ-455 is usually a very capable rifle. I have one which allowed me to participate decently in steel competitions; it will shoot .5-.7 inch 50-yard groups with Lapua-sourced Wolf Match Extra and some other rounds. I got a Vudoo a few months ago, and it is significantly more accurate - as should be expected since it cost 3x more than the 455 (taking the 455’s chassis and such into account). But the Vudoo will fling a poorly-triggered shot out of the group just as certainly as the 455 will. Work on those fundamentals and, more than anything, have fun.

 

[justin amateur]

And these SK Biathlons do not run the best


I believe you NM.
I had a couple boxes of the SK Biathlon Sport, did surprisingly well at 200 yards.
Very tight ES, less than 40 fps for 50 shots each box.
Ordered a brick for further review, results not as good.
Better than bulk rimfire, but like all the SK line, these are midgrade 22lr.
Some boxes will produce results above their grade, but not all of 'em.
To be expected with 15 to 18 cent per round 22lr.

 

[Near miss]

And these SK Biathlons do not run the best


I believe you NM.
I had a couple boxes of the SK Biathlon Sport, did surprisingly well at 200 yards.
Very tight ES, less than 40 fps for 50 shots each box.
Ordered a brick for further review, results not as good.
Better than bulk rimfire, but like all the SK line, these are midgrade 22lr.
Some boxes will produce results above their grade, but not all of 'em.
To be expected with 15 to 18 cent per round 22lr.

I bought 2 boxes, got 2 lots.
Tested around 50 of both and got good results. But accuracy is not there. These could be killers at 100 and beyond from another barrel.

Mostly I shoot training ammo and just plink and have fun. Bad habit..

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

Someone already mentioned this: what is your goal? If the goal is to make tiny little groups on paper at various ranges, that will likely be an expensive pursuit, with no small amount of frustration due to the nature of rimfire ammo.

For me personally, the goal is accuracy sufficient to participate in PRS/NRL - type rimfire competition. That’s a whole different beast. A hit on the edge of a 2MOA target is just as good as a hit dead center. Great accuracy is still hugely beneficial, but paper is more demanding than steel. I have a couple of .22 swinger targets with 3”, 2” and 1” plates. I practice on those at 100 (2”, 1” plates) or 150 yards (3”, 2” plates). For me, getting into a stable position and getting WELL-AIMED rounds off QUICKLY is a far bigger challenge than making little groups.

One thing no one has mentioned is that .22s have a very long dwell time (how long bullet is in barrel) - almost triple that of a centerfire round. Learn to call your shots: at the PRECISE instant the shot breaks, where was your crosshair, what was the rifle doing, and where was the crosshair when the bullet hit the target? If that rifle moves even an imperceptible amount as the shot breaks, the round will not land where you aim it.

A CZ-455 is usually a very capable rifle. I have one which allowed me to participate decently in steel competitions; it will shoot .5-.7 inch 50-yard groups with Lapua-sourced Wolf Match Extra and some other rounds. I got a Vudoo a few months ago, and it is significantly more accurate - as should be expected since it cost 3x more than the 455 (taking the 455’s chassis and such into account). But the Vudoo will fling a poorly-triggered shot out of the group just as certainly as the 455 will. Work on those fundamentals and, more than anything, have fun.

excellent point on the dwell time. i have seen that in a stage where my position wobbled as i was pulling the trigger to throw the shot off target.

did you notice an improvement in finishing position with the vudoo or can that be also chalked up to more trigger time and experience in matches?

 

[MarkCZ]

I really don't want to start a BS war here, i'd seriously like to know what the realistic expectations should be for a first year shooter. I live out in the styx and there isn't a single other .22lr shooter here to compare with.

starting point:
CZ 455 Varmint
Athlon midas tac 6-24x50
prone or benchrest with Dolphin AB bipod and Protektor Rabbit Ear Rear Shooting Rest
good selection of ammo from cci sv to lapua center-x

sooooo, what i'm trying to understand:

what % of new shooters can consistently shoot 5 shot groups under 1.5 MOA at 50m or 100m ?
what % of new shooters can consistently shoot 5 shot groups under 1 MOA at 50m or 100m ?
what % of new shooters can consistently shoot 5 shot groups under 0.5 MOA at 50m or 100m ?

and the reason for asking is that my results are really inconsistent some groups are under 0.35 MOA others are closer to 2 MOA.

Ive been reading everything available here on sniper's hide and other places and concentrating on the basics - i'm beginning to develop a 'feel' for when a shot is going to be good, but still haven't 'found' my natural hold such that i can just 'relax into it' for each shot.

and back to the question - what should a beginner (<2000 shots) have as a realistic MOA accuracy target with an off the shelf 455 ?

First off shooting small groups can be very hard for a new shooter. I tell guys starting out get some steel. Just work on hitting the steel, then work on shooting groups on the steel. Start close then move them out when you get better. I have 12" gongs that I shoot group at long range. I fire one shot on the steel, then use the hit as a POA for my group. I shoot match stick at 50 yds. I have a cheap KYL made close range. https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/cheap-kyl.6934529/ Don't worry about you groups yet, they will come. I get my steel from shootingtargets7.com .

Mark

 

[Near miss]

As another who just started with rimfire.. (1 year ago, maybe 12000 rounds in.)

A shooting advice, keep it together. 2MOA is ok, shooters and ammo have ups and downs. And progress does not always go forward or just stalls.

I concentrate very much to the accuracy of the "background group". If I shoot 3 good groups but they are not in the same POI it is not a great win.
This is why 6x5 is a worse measuring way than Justin's 50 at same target. (Not bashing 6x5 thread, I will be posting mine in near future)

When I leave the range I take the worst groups with me and analyze them later on. In my opinion it is not the amount of good groups that make a good shooter but the lack of bad groups.

And one more advice, do not stay at home because of weather unless it's way out of your skill zone. Otherwise you will miss all the nice headaches that come with weather and rimfires combined.

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

@Near miss - we've had more matches in crappy weather here in MD and PA than nice weather over the last year. i've shot more in the mud and rain that i'd really like but it is more like a joyful headache...

 

[barronian]

@MDrimfirerookie thanks im at the annoying stage where i know when it is right but don't know how to get there ! The impression i get from the replies here is that my 'progress' is par for the course and i should just persevere. Im determined to get good at this i just don't see a tremendous improvement in my skill level after 2 months and 1800 rounds. Its taking more time than i thought
there are no adjustment abilities on the Evolution stock so ii have ordered a chassis - should have been delivered a couple of weeks ago ...
and as you suggest the 'other' shooter was the range warden and has many years of experience..

 

[barronian]

I am not in any way a great shooter I love going to the range being outdoors in most weather 80% of the time . we started with 2 inch circles at 100 yards now down to 1 inch target doing the same thing at 200 yards now hope i can do that out to 400 with a 22lr and other rounds . I still get flyers that I know I should have not shot , but did anyway . slowing down is a bit easier still find my self speeding up from time to time . But I will keep trying .

@[B]acudaowner[/B] thanks for the encouragement. shooting .22 in a vacuum here - its nice to hear the reality of what to expect.

 

[barronian]

I have a CZ 455 varmint and got the best 6x5 of my life with it. I could never reproduce it. I'm convinced it was a fluke as my gun is a 0.6" average gun, on that day it averaged far better. As my shooting improved, my frustration with the gun went up. Gun is on sale and will go soon. My point is, you can't expect a $500 gun to knock your socks off in any category. It's a $500 gun and for that it is a great gun. I loved my gun when I first got it. That love affair ended once I started to see that my groups would open up and there was nothing I was doing to cause it. I could spend thousands trying to improve the CZ...I'm about 1200-1300 into my CZ. Without a new barrel! I'm sure if I put a new barrel, custom fit, ferry magic dust by the big name gunsmiths, and another 1000-1500 into it, I would have an awesome gun that shoots .2-.3 consistently. I'm just not the guy for that. If you look on the FS forum, there is a guy trying to sell a DJ rifle that he has damn near to 3k into it for 1900 and its still there. I think its been up for sale for at least 9 months or more.

I think reasonable expectations for a factory CZ is 0.6-.9" groups @ 50. Anything smaller then that consistently I would consider an excellent gun. Enjoy your gun. Have fun, keep at it and you will find yourself going down the rabbit hole like the rest of us....22LR will drive you insane.

@EddieE thanks. that puts things nicely in perspective, and i see others have agreed with what you wrote. Helps me not to feel totally incompetent :-0

 

[barronian]

I am going to put real data here.
My sister, having no previous shooting experience and having shot my Quad earlier 4 weeks ago approx 100 rounds.. She shot this paper on Sunday and it includes warmup group (center target). After wind settled for a moment she emptied 15 rounds and got that within 1,5".

And these SK Biathlons do not run the best in 55yd testing either, barely 0.5"
View attachment 7082007

thanks @Near miss useful with real data ! congratulate your sister - hope she enjoyed it !

 

[barronian]

Someone already mentioned this: what is your goal? If the goal is to make tiny little groups on paper at various ranges, that will likely be an expensive pursuit, with no small amount of frustration due to the nature of rimfire ammo.

For me personally, the goal is accuracy sufficient to participate in PRS/NRL - type rimfire competition. That’s a whole different beast. A hit on the edge of a 2MOA target is just as good as a hit dead center. Great accuracy is still hugely beneficial, but paper is more demanding than steel. I have a couple of .22 swinger targets with 3”, 2” and 1” plates. I practice on those at 100 (2”, 1” plates) or 150 yards (3”, 2” plates). For me, getting into a stable position and getting WELL-AIMED rounds off QUICKLY is a far bigger challenge than making little groups.

One thing no one has mentioned is that .22s have a very long dwell time (how long bullet is in barrel) - almost triple that of a centerfire round. Learn to call your shots: at the PRECISE instant the shot breaks, where was your crosshair, what was the rifle doing, and where was the crosshair when the bullet hit the target? If that rifle moves even an imperceptible amount as the shot breaks, the round will not land where you aim it.

A CZ-455 is usually a very capable rifle. I have one which allowed me to participate decently in steel competitions; it will shoot .5-.7 inch 50-yard groups with Lapua-sourced Wolf Match Extra and some other rounds. I got a Vudoo a few months ago, and it is significantly more accurate - as should be expected since it cost 3x more than the 455 (taking the 455’s chassis and such into account). But the Vudoo will fling a poorly-triggered shot out of the group just as certainly as the 455 will. Work on those fundamentals and, more than anything, have fun.

My goal is to be as accurate a shooter as i can be. first prone/benchrest (mainly so that i can find out what the limitations of the gun are) then kneeling, standing. PRS looks like fun but we don't have anything like that near me - all competition here is 6.5x55.

Hummm... just learnt something fundamental - many thanks for your section on calling the shots - i thought i was already doing this, but now i have to rethink this

If we use your .5-.7 inch groups with your 455 as a baseline what sort of 50-yard group size do you get with your Vudoo ? Useful info for managing expectations !

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

@barronian - if you don't mind me asking, where are you located? one of the best things i ever did was take an Appleseed course. They hammer home the fundamentals of traditional 3 position shooting without all of the doo dads in PRS. i'm getting ready to take another one here in June.

and don't get discouraged. the more you hang out here in the rimfire forum the more you will pick up. these guys here have been shooting a long time and have a lot of wisdom to pass along.

 

[Near miss]

thanks @Near miss useful with real data ! congratulate your sister - hope she enjoyed it !

She really does like to shoot but has rarely time in the schedule to attend.

Another thing I want you to see is stock screws. I have an excellent anecdote for that too.

So once upon a time I took my gun apart for cleaning and next time at the range (55yd) I had this group.

I hoped that maybe I had torqued stock screws (free hand) too much. I took 1/8 or 1/6 turn back on the front screw. And shot again, it looked like this:

Let's just say I was relieved. - Get to know your rifle!

@justin amateur By the way, I bought those SK Biathlons to begin with because I saw your group with them in your thread

 

[BillOH]

[QUOTE="barronian, post: 7745964, member: 132638"
If we use your .5-.7 inch groups with your 455 as a baseline what sort of 50-yard group size do you get with your Vudoo ? Useful info for managing expectations !
[/QUOTE]

I'm just slightly past you on rimfire shooting. I've shot handguns for decades, but just started long range rimfire about 3 years ago.

I have a CZ 455 Varmint and it is a .6" grouper at 50 yards for me. My 10-22 will do .5", my Anchutz MPR 64 will do .4" and my Vudoo will shoot .3" groups at 50 yards. This is with SK or Lapua ammo. You can see my scores on the 6x5 thread. With the CZ and 10-22 I was questioning my abilities. I got the Anschutz to prove to myself that I could shoot. The Vudoo is the best of all. Each of the 4 rifles prefers a different hold.

Everything needs to be consistent to prevent flyers. Hold, trigger pull, follow through etc. I use a bipod and rabbit ear rear bag.

 

[SporterII]

Your question is a good one.
Shoot "expendable "ammo until you can call your shots. Worry more about group size later.

 

[barronian]

As another who just started with rimfire.. (1 year ago, maybe 12000 rounds in.)

A shooting advice, keep it together. 2MOA is ok, shooters and ammo have ups and downs. And progress does not always go forward or just stalls.

I concentrate very much to the accuracy of the "background group". If I shoot 3 good groups but they are not in the same POI it is not a great win.
This is why 6x5 is a worse measuring way than Justin's 50 at same target. (Not bashing 6x5 thread, I will be posting mine in near future)

When I leave the range I take the worst groups with me and analyze them later on. In my opinion it is not the amount of good groups that make a good shooter but the lack of bad groups.

And one more advice, do not stay at home because of weather unless it's way out of your skill zone. Otherwise you will miss all the nice headaches that come with weather and rimfires combined.

ROFL ! i spend much more time analyzing my bad groups than my good groups ;-) I even merge the groups and look at patterns in my total day's shooting.

humm weather ... i live on the west coast of Norway - 'weather' might mean that the target stand blows away ;-) i was trying to read teh wind speed recently - you know, leaves move, small branches move, small trees sway, big trees sway, small trees move across the range ....

 

[barronian]

[QUOTE="barronian, post: 7745964, member: 132638"
If we use your .5-.7 inch groups with your 455 as a baseline what sort of 50-yard group size do you get with your Vudoo ? Useful info for managing expectations !

I'm just slightly past you on rimfire shooting. I've shot handguns for decades, but just started long range rimfire about 3 years ago.

I have a CZ 455 Varmint and it is a .6" grouper at 50 yards for me. My 10-22 will do .5", my Anchutz MPR 64 will do .4" and my Vudoo will shoot .3" groups at 50 yards. This is with SK or Lapua ammo. You can see my scores on the 6x5 thread. With the CZ and 10-22 I was questioning my abilities. I got the Anschutz to prove to myself that I could shoot. The Vudoo is the best of all. Each of the 4 rifles prefers a different hold.

Everything needs to be consistent to prevent flyers. Hold, trigger pull, follow through etc. I use a bipod and rabbit ear rear bag.
[/QUOTE]

Oh boy! i'm going to be mulling over this reply for ages... i have the option to buy a Match 54 action and barrel for nearly nothing - i just cant source a stock for it for less than c. $1000 here. Ive been considering making a fugly with it - then i would have something to compare against the 455. its just the paperwork involved in buying a gun from a private person that's putting me off.

 

[justin amateur]

Just remember B....there's Fuglie....and there's Lilja Artillery Fuglie!

 

[BillOH]

i have the option to buy a Match 54 action and barrel for nearly nothing - i just cant source a stock for it for less than c. $1000 here. Ive been considering making a fugly with it - then i would have something to compare against the 455. its just the paperwork involved in buying a gun from a private person that's putting me off.

Don't forget Topstrap's Ugly Beddy. It's stock is made out of pine 2x4's.

 

[barronian]

@barronian - if you don't mind me asking, where are you located? one of the best things i ever did was take an Appleseed course. They hammer home the fundamentals of traditional 3 position shooting without all of the doo dads in PRS. i'm getting ready to take another one here in June.

and don't get discouraged. the more you hang out here in the rimfire forum the more you will pick up. these guys here have been shooting a long time and have a lot of wisdom to pass along.

West coast ....... of Norway so a bit far from any of the courses.

Yea im seriously impressed and thankful for the quality of the help on here.

 

[barronian]

She really does like to shoot but has rarely time in the schedule to attend.

Another thing I want you to see is stock screws. I have an excellent anecdote for that too.

So once upon a time I took my gun apart for cleaning and next time at the range (55yd) I had this group.
View attachment 7082199

I hoped that maybe I had torqued stock screws (free hand) too much. I took 1/8 or 1/6 turn back on the front screw. And shot again, it looked like this:
View attachment 7082200View attachment 7082201

Let's just say I was relieved. - Get to know your rifle!

@justin amateur By the way, I bought those SK Biathlons to begin with because I saw your group with them in your thread

@Near miss i tried adjusting the torque in 2 in/lbs increments from 12 to 30 and found a sweet spot. then i plastic steel bedded the action and tried again... this time i couldn't convince myself that there was a real difference. when i get my own variability in better control i will try again.

 

[barronian]

Your question is a good one.
Shoot "expendable "ammo until you can call your shots. Worry more about group size later.

Im going to concentrate on this next time at the range - you and @DownhillFromHere have got me thinking...

 

[SporterII]

Breathe. Relax. Have good time at the range. Note conditions. Call each break.

 

[RTH1800]

First off shooting small groups can be very hard for a new shooter. I tell guys starting out get some steel. Just work on hitting the steel, then work on shooting groups on the steel. Start close then move them out when you get better. I have 12" gongs that I shoot group at long range. I fire one shot on the steel, then use the hit as a POA for my group. I shoot match stick at 50 yds. I have a cheap KYL made close range. https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/cheap-kyl.6934529/ Don't worry about you groups yet, they will come. I get my steel from shootingtargets7.com .

Mark

With all due respect, I think this is very bad advice. It encourages sloppy habits that will remain with the shooter for a lifetime. Hate to use the trite 'Work on fundamentals but in this case it is appropriate."

Worst thing you can do would be to not work on group shooting. Once you get proficient you can go ahead and shoot steel targets if you feel the need. Paper does not lie.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

did you notice an improvement in finishing position with the vudoo or can that be also chalked up to more trigger time and experience in matches?

Whether I finish higher with the Vudoo is somewhat debatable. In an “apples to apples” comparison, I have shot one “PRS-lite” (varying targets at different distances out to 150 yards, shot from a bench) match with the CZ and one with the Vudoo. These are small matches - a couple of dozen shooters. I finished 2nd with the CZ and first with the Vudoo. Now, the match where I used the Vudoo was far more difficult due to target size and a significant gusty wind.

I shoot monthly 50-100-150 yard matches where there are 20 steel targets at each range, varying in size from maybe 4MOA to about 1MOA, with rifle supported on a bench with bipod and rear bag (bag for 100 & 150 only). With the CZ, I would usually finish with a score in the mid-50’s out of 60 possible. I’ve shot two with the Vudoo. In the first, I was in a 4-way tie for first with 59/60; for whatever reason - can I blame it on a weak cartridge? - I missed one of the 2nd-smallest 100-yard targets. In the second, I cleaned the 50 and 100-yard stages with all but a few rounds almost exactly in the center of the target. But a gusty wind suddenly began blowing papers and such around as I moved to the 150 stage and somehow the 150-yard wind flag had gotten knocked down. So I dropped 6 and finished 6th out of a few dozen shooters; I was on the last flight of the day and all the earlier shooters had a much kinder wind factor.

Subjectively, shooting the Vudoo against most other rifles in the 50/100/150 matches, which are mostly shot from a solid bench with solid support and wind flags at every range, feels a little like bullying. I mentioned there was a 4-way tie for first - three of the four first place finishers were shooting Vudoos; the 4th shot an Anschutz. It’s largely an equipment and ammo race.

BUT. When the wind comes up and/or competition changes to varying distance, especially shooting from PRS style positioning on a tighter clock, the shooter becomes FAR more important. The rifle makes it easier, but, as shown with my succumbing to wind at 150 yards because the environment did not offer a good means of discerning wind at the back corner of the range where the targets were positioned, ya gotta know how to use the tool you have.

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

BUT. When the wind comes up and/or competition changes to varying distance, especially shooting from PRS style positioning on a tighter clock, the shooter becomes FAR more important than the rifle.

this is one of those statements that i would like 100x. i WANT a Vudoo really bad. I know I'm still gonna miss the same targets from the same barricades with either the CZ or the Vudoo. I also don't shoot centerfire PRS so I don't need the AICS mags, 700 footprint trainer aspect of it. BUT that system is so well put together. It is hard to resist.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

this is one of those statements that i would like 100x. i WANT a Vudoo really bad. I know I'm still gonna miss the same targets from the same barricades with either the CZ or the Vudoo. I also don't shoot centerfire PRS so I don't need the AICS mags, 700 footprint trainer aspect of it. BUT that system is so well put together. It is hard to resist.

My comment about dwell time is the perfect case in point. Will a run-of-the-mill Vudoo hold tighter groups than a run-of-the-mill CZ-455? Yes. But will a Vudoo throw a “twitched” round as far off intended POA as a CZ? Yes. Every.Single.Time.

I wondered if the Vudoo would mitigate the effects of unstable positioning or poor trigger control. In my experience, not much. Ya still gotta use the correct fundamentals.

It’s interesting to go back to the Vudoo after preparing for and shooting a match with my 6.5CM. Both rifles are in identical chassis with identical trigger setup and identical scope reticles. The Vudoo is “lighter” - about 14 pounds versus almost 19 - but off a rest it doesn’t matter. Anyway. it seems like it takes a week for the little .22 bullet to toddle out the barrel and flutter away to the target, and I re-discover Really Fast the importance of position, trigger control, and follow-through.

 

[Quarter Horse]

You first have to decide what your trying to accomplish. You've stated you're shooting for small groups but to what end. If the end is just small groups as opposed to developing skills for centerfire or PRS type shooting then how you approach your gun can be quite different. Fundamentals are a vehicle which simplifies your ability to do the same thing the same way every time. Your experience with the range-master shooting your rifle is a perfect example. The guy has probably fired seven gazzilian rounds and has no fundamentals but he shoots lights out. How can this be? It's simple. After the 7G rds. he does the same thing the same way every time which is the key to accuracy.

A question for you. When a group goes awry do you wonder what happened? If you do it will often cause you to alter your approach to the gun. That will lead to disaster. Remember, the same thing the same way. Time and rounds fired will groove this for you. Your groups will shrink and your confidence will increase. Confidence is hugely important. It allows you keep the mindset that the next shot is the only one that counts. Dry fire at the range before you shoot your first live round. If your crosshairs move when the trigger breaks, then keep dry firing until they don't. You've got to groove your mind just like you create muscle memory.

A couple of things that are easy to implement. When your shooting groups shoot nothing but Center-X. It's a good, good meaning consistently high performing, ammo. When you shoot a five round group, stay on the gun through the five rounds.

The great thing about this is it gets harder not easier. From 1" to .9" is a ten percent improvement. From .5" to .4" is a twenty percent improvement etc. Your going to have targets that are better than anything you've done before. Then you will have more of those targets and less of the other. Finally you will have one of those days where it all comes together. Even shots that feel like you pulled one will go where they're supposed to. Enjoy the journey.

 

[justin amateur]

When you finally get truly annoyed with those odd fliers that make no sense,
do yourself a favor and make use of a ballistic chronograph
along with a ballistic calculator.
Watch the MV numbers and the impacts, correlate the two.
You'll find that it's not all you.
Run a careful visual inspection of y'er rimfire cartridges.
Even small defects can produce major variations in the trajectories.
Those rimfire cartridges may look superficially alike, but they aren't.
I complain regularly about inconsistent rimfire quality,
due to the effects on repeatable accuracy.
In many cases you do everything right, but the ammo makes it wrong.