Granted up close we talk about "one ragged hole" and 1/4 moa, but what are respectable group sizes at distance. Say 800 to 1000? What about you f-class 600 yd shooters what are considered good group sizes? 1/2 moa, 1 moa, more?????? thanks for the input
- Thread starter DoubleBarrel
- Start date
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
I think distant groups are good or not dealing with conditions. I've shot several 1.5 inch 600 yds group with my BR that I think are very good for me. (In perfect conditions too) I've shot 7 inch groups at 600 yds in terrible contitions that I was proud of as well. I don't expect to get 1/2 moa in 30 mph crosswinds (seen people do it and it torments me) But that don't stop me from trying
I think distant groups are good or not dealing with conditions. I've shot several 1.5 inch 600 yds group with my BR that I think are very good for me. (In perfect conditions too) I've shot 7 inch groups at 600 yds in terrible contitions that I was proud of as well. I don't expect to get 1/2 moa in 30 mph crosswinds (seen people do it and it torments me) But that don't stop me from trying
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
Not enough space here to answer that question.
Can you kinda narrow that down to caliber, type of rifle (bench rest, tactical, hunting) reloads, factory ammo. Price of said rilfe? $3K $5K $10K?
Not enough space here to answer that question.
Can you kinda narrow that down to caliber, type of rifle (bench rest, tactical, hunting) reloads, factory ammo. Price of said rilfe? $3K $5K $10K?
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
If you are target shooting, a respectable group size stays in the 10-ring, and an exceptional group stays within the X-ring. Additionally, the group needs to be centered, and execution consistent over multiple shots; not just three tight shots anywhere on the paper.
Other rule of thumb, a respectable group equals the size of the target kill zone.
If you are target shooting, a respectable group size stays in the 10-ring, and an exceptional group stays within the X-ring. Additionally, the group needs to be centered, and execution consistent over multiple shots; not just three tight shots anywhere on the paper.
Other rule of thumb, a respectable group equals the size of the target kill zone.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
At distance, 600 yards, 1,000 yards, 1,500 yards its all about dealing with the weather conditions. A 1/2 minute rifle quickly becomes a 3 minute rifle if the shooter can't handle the conditions. A wonderful day of hammering steel at 1K+ gets annoying with misses just off the target left and right ...
If you look at the national record for F-Class Open Class at 1,000 yards, its placing all 20 shots for record inside the 10 ring, with a bunch of Xs for spice. In other words a 1 minute spread holds the natioal F-Class open record. The rest of us are still trying to keep them close to and inside the 10 ring.
At least in Las Vegas, where the desert wind is the nasty bitch that she is, a 1/2 minute rifle is more then adequate for competing in any event, the rest is fighting the conditions. The one who handles the conditions the best wins.
JeffVN
At distance, 600 yards, 1,000 yards, 1,500 yards its all about dealing with the weather conditions. A 1/2 minute rifle quickly becomes a 3 minute rifle if the shooter can't handle the conditions. A wonderful day of hammering steel at 1K+ gets annoying with misses just off the target left and right ...
If you look at the national record for F-Class Open Class at 1,000 yards, its placing all 20 shots for record inside the 10 ring, with a bunch of Xs for spice. In other words a 1 minute spread holds the natioal F-Class open record. The rest of us are still trying to keep them close to and inside the 10 ring.
At least in Las Vegas, where the desert wind is the nasty bitch that she is, a 1/2 minute rifle is more then adequate for competing in any event, the rest is fighting the conditions. The one who handles the conditions the best wins.
JeffVN
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
Consider what's possible. What's possible is every bullet going through the hole vacated by the first bullet, at any distance to which the bullet is still traveling nose-on. What's required to put 'em all in the same hole is a perfect position and correctly countering for wind and weather effects. The most important thing is to believe it is possible, expect the best result, and not accept anything less, unless, of course, you're satisfied with something less than the best outcome.
Consider what's possible. What's possible is every bullet going through the hole vacated by the first bullet, at any distance to which the bullet is still traveling nose-on. What's required to put 'em all in the same hole is a perfect position and correctly countering for wind and weather effects. The most important thing is to believe it is possible, expect the best result, and not accept anything less, unless, of course, you're satisfied with something less than the best outcome.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
Go review F-Class scores with the understanding that they shoot a 1/2 MOA X ring and a 1 MOA 10 ring and you'll get a pretty good understanding.
Here is a good web site to pull scores from.
http://www.baldeaglesrc.org/
Go review F-Class scores with the understanding that they shoot a 1/2 MOA X ring and a 1 MOA 10 ring and you'll get a pretty good understanding.
Here is a good web site to pull scores from.
http://www.baldeaglesrc.org/
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
Actually, that's not even remotely possible at any range past a few hundred yards. No matter how perfectly the shooter executes the shot and even given a perfect wind hold, variations in the bullets, powder, primer, things simply beyond the control of the shooter preclude this from beging a reality.
Try this. On a really calm clear day, shoot a 60 round group, 5 shots per string, using a 1 MOA aiming point at a 300 yard target. That is now a reasonable group size, 3/4's or less is quite good, 1/2 is exceptional.
Actually, that's not even remotely possible at any range past a few hundred yards. No matter how perfectly the shooter executes the shot and even given a perfect wind hold, variations in the bullets, powder, primer, things simply beyond the control of the shooter preclude this from beging a reality.
Try this. On a really calm clear day, shoot a 60 round group, 5 shots per string, using a 1 MOA aiming point at a 300 yard target. That is now a reasonable group size, 3/4's or less is quite good, 1/2 is exceptional.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually, that's not even remotely possible at any range past a few hundred yards. No matter how perfectly the shooter executes the shot and even given a perfect wind hold, variations in the bullets, powder, primer, things simply beyond the control of the shooter preclude this from beging a reality.
Try this. On a really calm clear day, shoot a 60 round group, 5 shots per string, using a 1 MOA aiming point at a 300 yard target. That is now a reasonable group size, 3/4's or less is quite good, 1/2 is exceptional.</div></div>
Well, Cory, actually it is possible, whether you believe or not. It's possible because a stable bullet falls with a definitive and uniform arc. Assuming the rifle and ammunition are perfect, it's only the shooter, who, not being perfect, precludes a perfect result. This is the mindset of a winner.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually, that's not even remotely possible at any range past a few hundred yards. No matter how perfectly the shooter executes the shot and even given a perfect wind hold, variations in the bullets, powder, primer, things simply beyond the control of the shooter preclude this from beging a reality.
Try this. On a really calm clear day, shoot a 60 round group, 5 shots per string, using a 1 MOA aiming point at a 300 yard target. That is now a reasonable group size, 3/4's or less is quite good, 1/2 is exceptional.</div></div>
Well, Cory, actually it is possible, whether you believe or not. It's possible because a stable bullet falls with a definitive and uniform arc. Assuming the rifle and ammunition are perfect, it's only the shooter, who, not being perfect, precludes a perfect result. This is the mindset of a winner.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
Top shooters in Service Rifle Competitions score over 97%. The 10 ring is basically 2 moa, and slightly larger for the off hand 200 yard target. A typical match is 10 shots off hand slow fire at 200, 10 shots rapid fire 200 sitting, 100 shots rapid fire prone at 300, and 20 shots slow fire at 600. Keep in mind the time constraints and the fact that these rifles are open sights, not the space guns or sniper rifles. So basically a shooter can hit the 9 ring only 15 times out of the 50 shots under these match conditions to score 97%. I think this is an excellent indicator of a true marksmanship benchmark. You shoot 97% and you can shoot...period.
My best group with scoped rifle at distance is 1.5" at 500, and I can do under 1 moa at 1000 with good conditions with my 308. It would be very difficult to do that over 50-60 shots as Cory points out.
Top shooters in Service Rifle Competitions score over 97%. The 10 ring is basically 2 moa, and slightly larger for the off hand 200 yard target. A typical match is 10 shots off hand slow fire at 200, 10 shots rapid fire 200 sitting, 100 shots rapid fire prone at 300, and 20 shots slow fire at 600. Keep in mind the time constraints and the fact that these rifles are open sights, not the space guns or sniper rifles. So basically a shooter can hit the 9 ring only 15 times out of the 50 shots under these match conditions to score 97%. I think this is an excellent indicator of a true marksmanship benchmark. You shoot 97% and you can shoot...period.
My best group with scoped rifle at distance is 1.5" at 500, and I can do under 1 moa at 1000 with good conditions with my 308. It would be very difficult to do that over 50-60 shots as Cory points out.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. As to the gun and load and etc. It is a .308, price is not relevant only to say that the equipment will shoot far better than i can ever shoot it. I haven't shot in a while and just getting back into it. I had the rifle built. Shot a few groups the other day at 800 yds. three of which measured around 5 inches so appx. .6 moa wind was only around 2-2.5mph 175 Black Hills. Rather happy as i haven't shot in a number of years. would like to possibly shoot an f/tr match so just wondering how that stood up in relation to good shooters as i don't consider myself to be one. thanks again to all. any further opinions or advice are welcomed
thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. As to the gun and load and etc. It is a .308, price is not relevant only to say that the equipment will shoot far better than i can ever shoot it. I haven't shot in a while and just getting back into it. I had the rifle built. Shot a few groups the other day at 800 yds. three of which measured around 5 inches so appx. .6 moa wind was only around 2-2.5mph 175 Black Hills. Rather happy as i haven't shot in a number of years. would like to possibly shoot an f/tr match so just wondering how that stood up in relation to good shooters as i don't consider myself to be one. thanks again to all. any further opinions or advice are welcomed
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go review F-Class scores with the understanding that they shoot a <span style="font-weight: bold">1/2 MOA X ring and a 1 MOA 10 ring</span> and you'll get a pretty good understanding.
Here is a good web site to pull scores from.
http://www.baldeaglesrc.org/ </div></div>
quick follow up question. is the above bold, standard for all matches?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go review F-Class scores with the understanding that they shoot a <span style="font-weight: bold">1/2 MOA X ring and a 1 MOA 10 ring</span> and you'll get a pretty good understanding.
Here is a good web site to pull scores from.
http://www.baldeaglesrc.org/ </div></div>
quick follow up question. is the above bold, standard for all matches?
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
I think these guys pretty much hit is already but I'll throw in my .02 too. If you can shoot great groups at close range under ideal conditions, then the same should be duplicated at long range. The problem is that it is damned near impossible to have ideal conditions at long ranges. The times are few and far between but when they do take place we can see that a great rifle like a 338LM can accuratly reach 2707yds, 3,422asl, and hit 2 consecutive targets, killing both terrorists. So on that note I'd say that if you can accurately hold tight groups under ideal conditions at reasonable ranges, then it should hold well at distance. The only thing do to next is to learn how to read conditions and put the rounds where you want them to go.
I think these guys pretty much hit is already but I'll throw in my .02 too. If you can shoot great groups at close range under ideal conditions, then the same should be duplicated at long range. The problem is that it is damned near impossible to have ideal conditions at long ranges. The times are few and far between but when they do take place we can see that a great rifle like a 338LM can accuratly reach 2707yds, 3,422asl, and hit 2 consecutive targets, killing both terrorists. So on that note I'd say that if you can accurately hold tight groups under ideal conditions at reasonable ranges, then it should hold well at distance. The only thing do to next is to learn how to read conditions and put the rounds where you want them to go.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
Double Barrel
Yes in F-Class the X ring is 1/2 minute and the 10 ring is 1.0 minute in all matches, except palma matches where you use the 1,000 yard target (5" X ring and 10" 10 ring) at ranges of 800, 900, and 1,000 yards.
She will humble you in bad conditions.
for the sling shooters, the 1,000 yard and Palma target has an X ring of 10" and 10 ring of 20 inches. Then again, they have to use the sling for stablity, and I get a bipod and scope.
For 600 yard F-Class the X-ring is 3" and the 10 ring is 6".
JeffVN
Double Barrel
Yes in F-Class the X ring is 1/2 minute and the 10 ring is 1.0 minute in all matches, except palma matches where you use the 1,000 yard target (5" X ring and 10" 10 ring) at ranges of 800, 900, and 1,000 yards.
She will humble you in bad conditions.
for the sling shooters, the 1,000 yard and Palma target has an X ring of 10" and 10 ring of 20 inches. Then again, they have to use the sling for stablity, and I get a bipod and scope.
For 600 yard F-Class the X-ring is 3" and the 10 ring is 6".
JeffVN
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigWill214</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think these guys pretty much hit is already but I'll throw in my .02 too. If you can shoot great groups at close range under ideal conditions, then the same should be duplicated at long range. The problem is that it is damned near impossible to have ideal conditions at long ranges. The times are few and far between but when they do take place we can see that a great rifle like a 338LM can accuratly reach 2707yds, 3,422asl, and hit 2 consecutive targets, killing both terrorists. So on that note I'd say that if you can accurately hold tight groups under ideal conditions at reasonable ranges, then it should hold well at distance. The only thing do to next is to learn how to read conditions and put the rounds where you want them to go.</div></div>
Regardless of wind and weather, most folks lose it at LR from an inconsistent position, which causes very divergent recoil from shot to shot; and, thus angular error from shot to shot. Since these shooters are somewhat ignorant about these concepts they may blame it on wind when the wind actually had nothing to do with their error. These folks may in fact not understand anything about the source of their errors as they do not know about the importance for calling their shots, and plotting the strike/call corollary.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigWill214</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think these guys pretty much hit is already but I'll throw in my .02 too. If you can shoot great groups at close range under ideal conditions, then the same should be duplicated at long range. The problem is that it is damned near impossible to have ideal conditions at long ranges. The times are few and far between but when they do take place we can see that a great rifle like a 338LM can accuratly reach 2707yds, 3,422asl, and hit 2 consecutive targets, killing both terrorists. So on that note I'd say that if you can accurately hold tight groups under ideal conditions at reasonable ranges, then it should hold well at distance. The only thing do to next is to learn how to read conditions and put the rounds where you want them to go.</div></div>
Regardless of wind and weather, most folks lose it at LR from an inconsistent position, which causes very divergent recoil from shot to shot; and, thus angular error from shot to shot. Since these shooters are somewhat ignorant about these concepts they may blame it on wind when the wind actually had nothing to do with their error. These folks may in fact not understand anything about the source of their errors as they do not know about the importance for calling their shots, and plotting the strike/call corollary.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DoubleBarrel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go review F-Class scores with the understanding that they shoot a <span style="font-weight: bold">1/2 MOA X ring and a 1 MOA 10 ring</span> and you'll get a pretty good understanding.
Here is a good web site to pull scores from.
http://www.baldeaglesrc.org/ </div></div>
quick follow up question. is the above bold, standard for all matches? </div></div>
Yes. The angular dimension stays the same as you go back from 300 to 1k.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DoubleBarrel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go review F-Class scores with the understanding that they shoot a <span style="font-weight: bold">1/2 MOA X ring and a 1 MOA 10 ring</span> and you'll get a pretty good understanding.
Here is a good web site to pull scores from.
http://www.baldeaglesrc.org/ </div></div>
quick follow up question. is the above bold, standard for all matches? </div></div>
Yes. The angular dimension stays the same as you go back from 300 to 1k.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
Good point about calling shots. If environmental conditions are perfect, and you are good at calling shots, then you should see the bullet hit where you aimed the barrel and within the rig's variance.
if the bullet doesn't hit where you called the shots and the divergence is outside the rig's variance, either you need more practice understanding your form (i.e. same position, same hold, same squeeze), or environmental conditions changed.
besides practice, practice, and more practice, visualizing the shot going into X ring does help. Marksmanship is 90% mental concentration.
Good point about calling shots. If environmental conditions are perfect, and you are good at calling shots, then you should see the bullet hit where you aimed the barrel and within the rig's variance.
if the bullet doesn't hit where you called the shots and the divergence is outside the rig's variance, either you need more practice understanding your form (i.e. same position, same hold, same squeeze), or environmental conditions changed.
besides practice, practice, and more practice, visualizing the shot going into X ring does help. Marksmanship is 90% mental concentration.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
Two things, first regarding shot calls: any shot on call but not right-in-there, for the most part, means shot displacement did not have anything to do with wind, perspective of aim, or sight adjustment; but rather, something about an inconsistent position. So, being able to call shots will clarify when indeed the wind got ya. Also, for a really good perspective on what's possible, shooting in LR competition will give you an idea, at least amongst the shooters present on a given day, who have the skills to win. Remember though in competition the focus is on placement not group size.
Two things, first regarding shot calls: any shot on call but not right-in-there, for the most part, means shot displacement did not have anything to do with wind, perspective of aim, or sight adjustment; but rather, something about an inconsistent position. So, being able to call shots will clarify when indeed the wind got ya. Also, for a really good perspective on what's possible, shooting in LR competition will give you an idea, at least amongst the shooters present on a given day, who have the skills to win. Remember though in competition the focus is on placement not group size.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and shot 3" groups at 1200 once. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get 4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards. This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and shot 3" groups at 1200 once. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get 4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards. This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and <span style="font-weight: bold">shot 3" groups at 1200 once</span>. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. <span style="font-weight: bold">I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations</span>.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get <span style="font-weight: bold">4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards</span>. This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. <span style="font-weight: bold">I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon</span>. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
</div></div>
Cool, first post and your already shooting three inch 1200yard groups.......was that a 20-shot group.
Padding the barrel? Are you talking about those rubber rings from Sims.
Would really like more info on how to reduce my drop by 220inches at 1K.
Lastly, if your shooting 3" 1200yards group, I wouldn't worry about upgrading your Nikon optic. After all, I don't think you'd get any benefit from USOptic, S&B, NF......
Scott
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and <span style="font-weight: bold">shot 3" groups at 1200 once</span>. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. <span style="font-weight: bold">I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations</span>.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get <span style="font-weight: bold">4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards</span>. This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. <span style="font-weight: bold">I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon</span>. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
</div></div>
Cool, first post and your already shooting three inch 1200yard groups.......was that a 20-shot group.
Padding the barrel? Are you talking about those rubber rings from Sims.
Would really like more info on how to reduce my drop by 220inches at 1K.
Lastly, if your shooting 3" 1200yards group, I wouldn't worry about upgrading your Nikon optic. After all, I don't think you'd get any benefit from USOptic, S&B, NF......
Scott
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Guest
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and shot 3" groups at 1200 once. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. <span style="font-weight: bold"> If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get 4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards.</span> This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
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Do you really believe any of that? For if you do, either get new friends or unplug your computer because both are lying to you.
Please tell me how your going to get a 168gr bullet from a 30-06 to that speed? I've dicked around with duplex an tri-plex loads a little from the 70's on and I'd love to know the powder combo, an timing delays your using?
As to the OP if you can shoot 1.5 MOA 90% of the time to 1K yds your doing very well. If you can do MOA every time, your going to win 99% of most every match, you enter.
Now if your trying to keep up with most internet shooters that never show up anywhere,...3" groups at 1K won't even get you, an invite.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and shot 3" groups at 1200 once. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. <span style="font-weight: bold"> If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get 4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards.</span> This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
</div></div>
Do you really believe any of that? For if you do, either get new friends or unplug your computer because both are lying to you.
Please tell me how your going to get a 168gr bullet from a 30-06 to that speed? I've dicked around with duplex an tri-plex loads a little from the 70's on and I'd love to know the powder combo, an timing delays your using?
As to the OP if you can shoot 1.5 MOA 90% of the time to 1K yds your doing very well. If you can do MOA every time, your going to win 99% of most every match, you enter.
Now if your trying to keep up with most internet shooters that never show up anywhere,...3" groups at 1K won't even get you, an invite.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and shot 3" groups at 1200 once. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get 4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards. This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
</div></div>
Up to this point, it appears, you have let popular culture, determine your fate. You may want to get some training from someone who knows how to shoot and can teach it to you, as right now you have a perception about what it takes to get the job done largely based on fantasy rather than fact.
Shooting at LR is like shooting any distance short of it, except at LR, angular errors produced by sight misalignment, parallax, and position inconsistency are unmasked. These are errors, which increase with distance and seperate those who indeed know something about good shooting from those who don't. Certainly, ammunition must be perfect, as well as the rifle; but from there, it's all about the shooter maintaining a consistent position, and adjusting the sight/s to counter for the effects of wind and weather. Long barrels and long bullets can help a shooter counter the effects of wind and weather; but, there's still no substitute for basic prone marksmanship knowledge and skill.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and shot 3" groups at 1200 once. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get 4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards. This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
</div></div>
Up to this point, it appears, you have let popular culture, determine your fate. You may want to get some training from someone who knows how to shoot and can teach it to you, as right now you have a perception about what it takes to get the job done largely based on fantasy rather than fact.
Shooting at LR is like shooting any distance short of it, except at LR, angular errors produced by sight misalignment, parallax, and position inconsistency are unmasked. These are errors, which increase with distance and seperate those who indeed know something about good shooting from those who don't. Certainly, ammunition must be perfect, as well as the rifle; but from there, it's all about the shooter maintaining a consistent position, and adjusting the sight/s to counter for the effects of wind and weather. Long barrels and long bullets can help a shooter counter the effects of wind and weather; but, there's still no substitute for basic prone marksmanship knowledge and skill.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and shot 3" groups at 1200 once. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get 4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards. This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
</div></div>
to hell with Jacob and Frank... Rifles Only is a joke, I want this guy to teach everyone from now on....lmfao
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and shot 3" groups at 1200 once. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get 4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards. This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
</div></div>
to hell with Jacob and Frank... Rifles Only is a joke, I want this guy to teach everyone from now on....lmfao
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
After reading his other post I call B/S,....believe it's a member or near leadership off their meds.
After reading his other post I call B/S,....believe it's a member or near leadership off their meds.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and shot 3" groups at 1200 once. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get 4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards. This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
</div></div>
WOW!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and shot 3" groups at 1200 once. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get 4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards. This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
</div></div>
WOW!
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
All,
Although Cpt. Coughtry is wrong in his analysis, some of the factors he has put into the equation are right. Bottom line, if indeed the rifle, ammunition and shooter are perfect shot to shot, and the shooter appraises correctly the sight adjustment necessary for wind and weather conditions, then good results at any distance, the bullet is still traveling nose-on, should be expected. I think, however Cpt. C. is mixing popular science with popular culture which is distracting him from an understanding.
All,
Although Cpt. Coughtry is wrong in his analysis, some of the factors he has put into the equation are right. Bottom line, if indeed the rifle, ammunition and shooter are perfect shot to shot, and the shooter appraises correctly the sight adjustment necessary for wind and weather conditions, then good results at any distance, the bullet is still traveling nose-on, should be expected. I think, however Cpt. C. is mixing popular science with popular culture which is distracting him from an understanding.
A
Augustus
Guest
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
My god, this guy must be just yankin our chain. Nobody could be that stupid!
My god, this guy must be just yankin our chain. Nobody could be that stupid!
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
In my experience, it is foolish to underestimate the power of human stupidity.
In my experience, it is foolish to underestimate the power of human stupidity.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and shot 3" groups at 1200 once. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get 4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards. This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
</div></div>
Crack... not just for breakfast anymore...
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and shot 3" groups at 1200 once. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get 4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards. This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
</div></div>
Crack... not just for breakfast anymore...
John
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and shot 3" groups at 1200 once. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get 4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards. This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
</div></div>
WTF over...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and shot 3" groups at 1200 once. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get 4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards. This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
</div></div>
WTF over...
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
wow, what a thread.
I love to shoot out to 1k but I got a hard lesson from the wind once I moved from 600 out to 1k. That was a very humbling experience. I try to keep my mouth shut and learn as much as I can from the old dogs that know the way.
On a good day I can shoot .5 to .75 moa at 600 and feel like I'm doing some real good. Now at 1k that group opens up to about 2.5 moa and I pray it stays on the paper on a windy day !! So I still have a long way to go.
wow, what a thread.
I love to shoot out to 1k but I got a hard lesson from the wind once I moved from 600 out to 1k. That was a very humbling experience. I try to keep my mouth shut and learn as much as I can from the old dogs that know the way.
On a good day I can shoot .5 to .75 moa at 600 and feel like I'm doing some real good. Now at 1k that group opens up to about 2.5 moa and I pray it stays on the paper on a windy day !! So I still have a long way to go.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DoubleBarrel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Granted up close we talk about "one ragged hole" and 1/4 moa, but what are respectable group sizes at distance. Say 800 to 1000? What about you f-class 600 yd shooters what are considered good group sizes? 1/2 moa, 1 moa, more?????? thanks for the input </div></div>
My personal standard that I strive for in load testing and in practice is 1/2 moa (or better, of course) vertical for a string of 10 or more rounds. Bottom line, the flatter groups you can shoot, the wider (and more forgiving) your target becomes. Some folks I know say 1/4 moa, but for smaller (3-5) strings. The horizontal dispersion due to wind I have less control over - but it is also more likely to be caused by shooter error - so I don't sweat it as much for the purpose of evaluating the gun and/or load.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DoubleBarrel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Granted up close we talk about "one ragged hole" and 1/4 moa, but what are respectable group sizes at distance. Say 800 to 1000? What about you f-class 600 yd shooters what are considered good group sizes? 1/2 moa, 1 moa, more?????? thanks for the input </div></div>
My personal standard that I strive for in load testing and in practice is 1/2 moa (or better, of course) vertical for a string of 10 or more rounds. Bottom line, the flatter groups you can shoot, the wider (and more forgiving) your target becomes. Some folks I know say 1/4 moa, but for smaller (3-5) strings. The horizontal dispersion due to wind I have less control over - but it is also more likely to be caused by shooter error - so I don't sweat it as much for the purpose of evaluating the gun and/or load.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
Pretty good responses.
I think before you look for an answer to a realistic group size, you need to look at two factors, with one being difficult to answer.
1) what is a realistic group size for your rifle?
2) what is a realistic group size for your shooting form?
These two are completely different. Once your shooting form is spot on, only then can you say that you consider a 5" group at 1000 yards as realistic, because your rifle is capable of 1/2"
at 100.
I think adding experience is where it all comes to play and thats where being part of such a great community online (the hide) and at the range really helps.
Pretty good responses.
I think before you look for an answer to a realistic group size, you need to look at two factors, with one being difficult to answer.
1) what is a realistic group size for your rifle?
2) what is a realistic group size for your shooting form?
These two are completely different. Once your shooting form is spot on, only then can you say that you consider a 5" group at 1000 yards as realistic, because your rifle is capable of 1/2"
at 100.
I think adding experience is where it all comes to play and thats where being part of such a great community online (the hide) and at the range really helps.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
Shooting groups of 1 moa and better at 1000 yards is good in my book. 1/2 moa groups are exceptional and more difficult to consistently produce then the theorectical types think. We do a lot of extreme distance tests at 1000 yards and 1500 meters, with factory ammunition and the best factory ammo can group 1 moa or better at both distances at least vertically that is, horizontally too if the shooter does his part. We fire multiple 5 shot groups with 20 shot aggregates. A very big factor most people don't consider is mirage at both distances in most conditions you will have mirage that will displace the targets image which can be several moa in the worste conditions. So you are aiming at point that is visually moving and hoping to shoot a group that is smaller than the target is moving, extremely difficult to do, there are training techniques for minimizing the image displacement aiming error. Obviously shooting from a stationary fixture that returns to battery consistently is a solution but impractical in the field. Another way to get around it is with thermal weapon sights, best option in my book but very cost prohibitive. The most practical is learning to read mirage and knowing how to identify at which point the targets image is at it's real location.
Shooting groups of 1 moa and better at 1000 yards is good in my book. 1/2 moa groups are exceptional and more difficult to consistently produce then the theorectical types think. We do a lot of extreme distance tests at 1000 yards and 1500 meters, with factory ammunition and the best factory ammo can group 1 moa or better at both distances at least vertically that is, horizontally too if the shooter does his part. We fire multiple 5 shot groups with 20 shot aggregates. A very big factor most people don't consider is mirage at both distances in most conditions you will have mirage that will displace the targets image which can be several moa in the worste conditions. So you are aiming at point that is visually moving and hoping to shoot a group that is smaller than the target is moving, extremely difficult to do, there are training techniques for minimizing the image displacement aiming error. Obviously shooting from a stationary fixture that returns to battery consistently is a solution but impractical in the field. Another way to get around it is with thermal weapon sights, best option in my book but very cost prohibitive. The most practical is learning to read mirage and knowing how to identify at which point the targets image is at it's real location.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
I don't mean to be a downer but If you shoot 1/2 moa groups. You are the man. There is a huge difference between shooting 600,700,800,900 and then the magical 1000. More things come to play at 1000. At 600 yards you can hold you own. At 1000, your load,wind calling,knowing when to brake the shot. Go to a 1000 yard comp and see what a realistic group is. I hear a lot of people give advice on this but rarely shoot 1000. Go to a competition and see vs. taking someones thoughts on this.
Most of the competitions unless your are one of the top shooters will be around 1 moa but this will be base on conditions. Your wind call at 1000 yards maybe 10mph but do you consider the bullet path where the wind is. It could be 10 mph at your shooting spot but at 500 yards it could 18 mph gust. Shot to shot I would like to see someone consistently shoot a 1/2 to 1 moa anywhere they go. Not just a picture but live shooting.
This is my experience of seeing shooters at competitions. You will have some that have a good day but not everyday.
I don't mean to be a downer but If you shoot 1/2 moa groups. You are the man. There is a huge difference between shooting 600,700,800,900 and then the magical 1000. More things come to play at 1000. At 600 yards you can hold you own. At 1000, your load,wind calling,knowing when to brake the shot. Go to a 1000 yard comp and see what a realistic group is. I hear a lot of people give advice on this but rarely shoot 1000. Go to a competition and see vs. taking someones thoughts on this.
Most of the competitions unless your are one of the top shooters will be around 1 moa but this will be base on conditions. Your wind call at 1000 yards maybe 10mph but do you consider the bullet path where the wind is. It could be 10 mph at your shooting spot but at 500 yards it could 18 mph gust. Shot to shot I would like to see someone consistently shoot a 1/2 to 1 moa anywhere they go. Not just a picture but live shooting.
This is my experience of seeing shooters at competitions. You will have some that have a good day but not everyday.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sr90</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooting groups of 1 moa and better at 1000 yards is good in my book. 1/2 moa groups are exceptional and more difficult to consistently produce then the theorectical types think. We do a lot of extreme distance tests at 1000 yards and 1500 meters, with factory ammunition and the best factory ammo can group 1 moa or better at both distances at least vertically that is, horizontally too if the shooter does his part. We fire multiple 5 shot groups with 20 shot aggregates. A very big factor most people don't consider is mirage at both distances in most conditions you will have mirage that will displace the targets image which can be several moa in the worste conditions. So you are aiming at point that is visually moving and hoping to shoot a group that is smaller than the target is moving, extremely difficult to do, there are training techniques for minimizing the image displacement aiming error. Obviously shooting from a stationary fixture that returns to battery consistently is a solution but impractical in the field. Another way to get around it is with thermal weapon sights, best option in my book but very cost prohibitive. The most practical is learning to read mirage and knowing how to identify at which point the targets image is at it's real location. </div></div>
+1 Thermal....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sr90</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooting groups of 1 moa and better at 1000 yards is good in my book. 1/2 moa groups are exceptional and more difficult to consistently produce then the theorectical types think. We do a lot of extreme distance tests at 1000 yards and 1500 meters, with factory ammunition and the best factory ammo can group 1 moa or better at both distances at least vertically that is, horizontally too if the shooter does his part. We fire multiple 5 shot groups with 20 shot aggregates. A very big factor most people don't consider is mirage at both distances in most conditions you will have mirage that will displace the targets image which can be several moa in the worste conditions. So you are aiming at point that is visually moving and hoping to shoot a group that is smaller than the target is moving, extremely difficult to do, there are training techniques for minimizing the image displacement aiming error. Obviously shooting from a stationary fixture that returns to battery consistently is a solution but impractical in the field. Another way to get around it is with thermal weapon sights, best option in my book but very cost prohibitive. The most practical is learning to read mirage and knowing how to identify at which point the targets image is at it's real location. </div></div>
+1 Thermal....
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
Good thread. Thanks for all the input. -sigh- I have sooo far to go. And here I was thinking 1 MOA @ 500 was good.
It's an exciting journey though! Thanks for some great info.
Good thread. Thanks for all the input. -sigh- I have sooo far to go. And here I was thinking 1 MOA @ 500 was good.
It's an exciting journey though! Thanks for some great info.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and shot 3" groups at 1200 once. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get 4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards. This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
</div></div>
Crack... not just for breakfast anymore...
John </div></div>
LOL nice one John.
Tom Sarver should give this guy a call and figure out his secret. As a holder of multiple World Records in 1k Bench Rest I'm sure Tom would PAY to get some lessons from this guy.
I must clearly be doing it wrong with my 30-06. I'm shooting overlapping holes at 100yd and 200yd but when I get to 1k I can barely keep it in 8-12" (all day long, when the conditions are perfect, from my bone stock Mauser....) LMAO.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to determine what you can do at say 1000 yards to make the math quick is to start off with sets of three shots at 100yards. Figure your MOA and multiply that by ten and you should get a reasonable group figure for the 1000 yard. Before hand loading I was shooting 1/2"MOA at 100 yards, but had a good day and shot 3" groups at 1200 once. Realistically I was lucky since I was only expecting 6" groups. Now that I'm hand loading I get 3/16"MOA at 100 yards and just made some new adjustments to my load so I'm excited to see what I can do at 1000 yards. What ammo you use is the trick. If your receiver and barrel are square and seated properly the rest is left up to you and your ammo. I've made a few changes to my stock Rem 700 30-06 24"barrel such as fully floating the barrel, adding weight to the stock, and padding the barrel to absorb vibrations.
Once I get a response to some figures I need from IMR, Hodgdon, and VihtaVuori I plan to upgrade my barrel to a 32" bore barrel. If my calculations are right at 50K cup using the right powder I should get 4045fps to reduce my drop by 220 inches at 1000 yards. This will help me out a lot, but I might have to upgrade to a 300 RUM when I chamber the barrel since I don't think a 30-06 will hold enough powder even at 80% charge for such a slow burn. Loading IMR 4350 at 48 grains almost needs to be compressed and with a 168gr BTHP this causes issues. I do know with a 26" barrel the 300RUM tops out at 3450fps with this bullet. Now if you want to take a look at something that will really kick your but check out the 20mm sniper rifle. Forget about the 50bmg the 20mm isn't a gun it's a cannon. I would hate to run threw a box of ammo and wake up the next day with out lortab. lol
Does any one know a good reloading manual to accommodate long barrels and sniper rifles? Does any one know of powder burn rates with actual figures and pressure measurements? I don't need a list of powders in order of there burn rate when it doesn't tell me what those rates are and no pressure output. I also need an optics upgrade from my Nikon. Any suggestions of a scope that will hold a zero and won't brake after a few thousand rounds? Well thanks
</div></div>
Crack... not just for breakfast anymore...
John </div></div>
LOL nice one John.
Tom Sarver should give this guy a call and figure out his secret. As a holder of multiple World Records in 1k Bench Rest I'm sure Tom would PAY to get some lessons from this guy.
I must clearly be doing it wrong with my 30-06. I'm shooting overlapping holes at 100yd and 200yd but when I get to 1k I can barely keep it in 8-12" (all day long, when the conditions are perfect, from my bone stock Mauser....) LMAO.
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
Bohem,
Don't get me into this..lol. I was once called "just a fat ass benchrest shooter with a fancy gun", and with out the bench I could'nt hit shit!!!!! I laughed for two days and lost three pounds. But he never showed up to kick my ass either thank god..shooting or fighting. Geez...
Well, in all seriousness we should take this guy under our wing and help him. Maybe he just doesn't know enough and has bad influences telling him what's up. That's why we are here, don't forget..to help others and help them understand.
If he excepts our invitation to sit back and listen, then he can show the folks that are giving him miss information a place to come learn how to do it right.
But hey...what do I know? I'm just a fat ass BR shooter who could'nt hit the broad side of a barn if I was standing in it!
Bohem,
Don't get me into this..lol. I was once called "just a fat ass benchrest shooter with a fancy gun", and with out the bench I could'nt hit shit!!!!! I laughed for two days and lost three pounds. But he never showed up to kick my ass either thank god..shooting or fighting. Geez...
Well, in all seriousness we should take this guy under our wing and help him. Maybe he just doesn't know enough and has bad influences telling him what's up. That's why we are here, don't forget..to help others and help them understand.
If he excepts our invitation to sit back and listen, then he can show the folks that are giving him miss information a place to come learn how to do it right.
But hey...what do I know? I'm just a fat ass BR shooter who could'nt hit the broad side of a barn if I was standing in it!
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
Boy! Where ya' been? We miss ya' bro!
Boy! Where ya' been? We miss ya' bro!
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
Tom said - But hey...what do I know? I'm just a fat ass BR shooter who could'nt hit the broad side of a barn if I was standing in it!
RIGHT ! ! !
Tom said - But hey...what do I know? I'm just a fat ass BR shooter who could'nt hit the broad side of a barn if I was standing in it!
RIGHT ! ! !
Re: Realistic group sizes at distance
LMAO... that's funny Tom.
You're right, I got a little carried away there. We're all starting somewhere. Lookin' forward to when I can get out to see you guys again soon.
LMAO... that's funny Tom.
You're right, I got a little carried away there. We're all starting somewhere. Lookin' forward to when I can get out to see you guys again soon.
