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Really Tough Reloading Questions/Follow-up Report

SemperFiDawg

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 12, 2008
102
6
Dublin, Georgia
I have a DPMS SASS with an 18 inch barrel and 1 in 10 twist. I have always noted with factory ammo that my first cold bore shot of the day consistently went 2 inches high. Fast forward to today when I took my first batch....EVER of handloads to the range. I started with 42.5 grains of Varget with Sierra MK 168 grain bullets, Winchester Brass and CCI BR-2 primers. Had set up my new chronograph and put a round downrange. Sure enough it was 2 inches high. Checked the chrony and it read 2932.6 fps. I bout crapped! I checked the brass and there was no flattened primer nor extractor swipe. Brass looked fine. I fired the second round and it was 2818.3. The velocity continued to fall over the next 3 shots. The following 5 shot string averaged 2520 fps which I would think is reasonable. What gives with the rifle. And before you say I made a mistake and loaded the first round hot I didn't. Because I have an intense fear of a facial amputation I had a senior reloader literally watch over my shoulder for every round I reloaded, just to make dang sure I was doing it right. I think that given the history of each cold bore shot going high this has always happened, I just didn't know because I didn't have a chrony. So the question is what is causing this and second, is it dangerous despite no signs of overpressure.
Here's another toughy. I loaded rounds all the way up to 45 grains in 0.2 grain increments. At 44.2 grains I began to notice negligible velocity increases with increased powder. My question regarding this is where is the extra energy going? Is it that at 44.2 grains I've reached the maximum obtainable burn out of an 18 inch barrel and the rest is simple going out the end of the barrel or is the gas block acting like a high pressure release valve and venting everything over this pressure back into the recoil system? Or maybe a little of both.
 
Re: Really Tough Reloading Questions

As for your first questions, I have no idea. Was it a freshly cleaned bore? I've had the opposite happen on my rifles with a freshly cleaned bore, but maybe yours is different.

As for increasing powder and not increasing velocity, that usually is a sign that you are approaching your max. I've got a few wildcats and haven't been able to find good load data on them. That is one method that I've used to find my max loads for a round. It could also be that you are running out of barrel to burn the remaining powder.

I hope this was of a little help.

Brad
 
Re: Really Tough Reloading Questions

Should have specified. Cold bore shot has been high with the rifle clean or dirty. It doesn't matter. It's always high. The second one is always a bit lower and by the 3rd or 4 round it's settled back to zero.
 
Re: Really Tough Reloading Questions

IMO getting 2900+ with a 168 out of an 18" barrel without any pressure sign tells me the chronograph is not right....400fps high low?....Try the same loads with a different chronograph.
 
Re: Really Tough Reloading Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PGS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMO getting 2900+ with a 168 out of an 18" barrel without any pressure sign tells me the chronograph is not right....400fps high low?....Try the same loads with a different chronograph. </div></div>

agreed. 42.5 Varget with a 168 out of 18" should be around 2500-2550fps.
 
Re: Really Tough Reloading Questions

You have definitely topped out on powder Burn when you get little or no velocity increase, I would back off a bunch. Hot loads just hammer your weapon.

The minimum charge needed to obtain the lowest velocity deviation will give you the best results.

It sounds as if your crono. is giving you bad data. What type? Try a different one if you can.

Cold bore:
Fire one round, let your weapon cool for 45 min. or more in shade, repeat several times and see what the POI is. That will give you a basic cold bore correction. Since you said it shot high clean or dirty.
 
Re: Really Tough Reloading Questions

A)) How far away from the muzzle was the Chrony?

You want to be at least 8-12ft away, otherwise there's a big likelihood the high velocities are coming from the muzzle gasses, and not the bullet. This is especially likely with a shorter barrel, which expels the bullet with a significantly higher muzzle pressure. If the Chrony was significantly closer to the muzzle than I suggested, redo the chrono test with the Chrony at about 12ft before you do anything with charge weights. I'm guessing the Chrony was too close, with an inexperienced user hedging their bets against shooting the Chrony in error.

Don't feel bad; I did the same at first, and was getting speeds around 2800fps from an SKS and S&B ammo. (Whaaaa....?

42.5gr of Varget with a 168SMK is not normally anywhere near a hot load. Many here consider 45.5gr of Varget to be a standard load with that bullet.

All this would jibe with the lack of pressure signs on the fired cases. My guess is, there's no unexplained extra energy, just a flaw in the velocity reporting.

B) A high first shot generally indicates a slower velocity from a clean, dry, cold, and unfouled barrel. Carbon fouling tends to dry lube the bore, increasing velocity with successive shots. This first shot will probably clock faster with a too-close Chrony because the bore transit delay allows more pressure to build behind the bullet, resulting an a faster muzzle gas discharge velocity.

So how does a slower round strike higher? Easy, it has a longer bore transit time, allowing the recoil to flip the muzzle higher before the bullet is expelled.

Greg
 
Re: Really Tough Reloading Questions

The only time I had pressure issues/ high speeds Varget and 168 SMK's and CCI BR2 primers was with Israeli military brass.
It was thicker and had a smaller case capacity.
I had to make 42.5gr the maximum load for that combination.
To get the same speed with Win, FC or Remington brass it is 45. gr of Varget.
The Chrony thing is easy too fix if its too close. It's when you shoot the Chrony it all goes to S....water.
 
Re: Really Tough Reloading Questions

That may have been it. My chrony was about 4-5 ft from the muzzle and the muzzle blast visibly shook it with every shot. I'm going back and try it again later this week. Will post an update at that time.
 
Re: Really Tough Reloading Questions

Greg, you were correct. I moved the chrony about 10 ft out from the end of the muzzle and my velocities dropped back to what you would expect from the corresponding amount of powder. Had to be the muzzle blast that was giving the erroneous readings. Thanks.